Lets talk about bandannas and Corona viruses?

[Moondog55]

Basically as protection in the current Covid-19 panic.
I can wear a P1 surgical mask with few problems but unless I shave off my mustache [ which is not going to happen] I can't get a P2 or P3 mask to fit well enough to offer any real protection. A quick internet search using Doctor Google seems to indicate that a standard bandanna offers up to 50% of the protection of a P1
Trouble comes when trying to find the testing protocol for the bandanna. Most of mine are the real deal type using LW loosely woven cotton . silk or silk/cotton blend and 42" square
I like bandannas, I use them in summer and in winter and they are my standard way or keeping my face warm and prewarming the air in freezing conditions so I have a fair collection.
They work well for filtering dust when particle size is large but obviously they cannot filter viruses. So at what point will they filter out droplets when you get too clos to somebody coughing or sneezing?
Normal wear is two layers, is there a folding pattern that will offer more real protection or would the added filtering of 4 layers be more illusory than real?
Add a layer of ordinary paper towel between the silk layers?
Use doubled bandannas?
The government hasn't yet released the triage guidelines for dealing with the epidemic but I will assume that any person over working age [ ME] or whose age and condition make recovery doubtful, won't be offered space in intensive care. A rational and hard headed response I agree with.
So I need to do what I can in the current circumstances.
Also there won't be any extra masks for quite a while, medical and caring staff need these as the first priority, bandannas may be my only available option.
Thoughts and comments please especially from those in the health professions

[ribuck]

(I'm not a health professional, but am married to one.)

Ad-hoc masks such as a bandana intercept the larger droplets, but by no means all, so they reduce but certainly don't eliminate transmission. Four layers will be better than two, and one layer is useless because droplets can move easily to the other side by capillary action (so don't cut your bandanas in half!).

Change the bandana regularly. Don't touch the outside of the bandana after putting it on, or when taking it off. Wash it, then iron it to sterilize. And don't hope for much, but I reckon it's better than nothing.

[crollsurf]

Don't panic, go bushwalking.

Seriously, this has nothing to do about you dying. Your young and healthy. It's all about slowing down the contagion so there are enough respirators to go around and medical staff don't have to make life and death desicions about who gets treated and who doesn't.

If we do it right everyone who needs treatment will get it. Less deaths than the seasonal flu. Let's hope.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[ribuck]

Don't panic, go bushwalking.

Seriously, this has nothing to do about you dying. Your young...

Some of us are no longer young!

But yes, going bushwalking is the perfect thing to do. The risk of contracting the virus in the bush is minimal, probably lower than anywhere else, except for the International Space Station. Now, if only the authorities would re-open some national parks...

[Gadgetgeek]

As far as filtering out anything in the air, "better than nothing" is all the comes to mind. The main use for masks in the current situation is to keep things to ourselves, so any mask is going to help limit how far anything disperses from a cough or sneeze.

[Moondog55]

I might go bushwalking when Cecile starts working from home so I don't distract her from her job; but it might just be some car camping
I have to go shopping later today so I might just try the bandanna and see what reaction I get.
I have a persistent cough due to the lung tissue scarring from my last bout of Influenza and I don't want that confused with this current scare

[Moondog55]

Posted via Facebook
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep39956

[neilmny]

I might go bushwalking when Cecile starts working from home so I don't distract her from her job; but it might just be some car camping
I have to go shopping later today so I might just try the bandanna and see what reaction I get......

I wouldn't go into the bank with it on MD

[Moondog55]

Nobody even blinked, the staff at the local Aldi are mostly wearing masks and gloves too. Good practice as they have to be with-in 400mm of people to do their job. I think I may have t start a bandanna thread so we can show off our bestest

[Neo]

I seem to have collected several buffs.
Tried one today but too hot!

[Gadgetgeek]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tjmccue/20 ... b02a9f4e41

[slparker]

The best protection is to affect a violent cough or sneeze.
You will soon find that people keep more than the recommended 1.5m from you and thereby reducing your chance of infection.
Good for clearing the supermarket aisle too.

[Moondog55]

Serious reply now
Cecile and I have raided our respective fabric stashes and will spend some hours this week-end making simple folded fabric surgical masks, might make them 3 layer. Might also use the salt impregnation. While the majority of my brain says this is a beat-up and just another way for the government to increase its control of us the rational and logical part is telling me to take precautions seriously Even if most people in this area are more worried about running out of toilet paper than getting ill and dieing. At least Cecile and I have a back yard and a front garden

[Ms_Mudd]

Moondog, all very sensible considerations given your age group, well done on thinking about the fit of your mask etc. It seems that your queries have been well answered already. You are right in taking precautions and acting responsibly, this is not a drill and I am so dismayed to see the only 'precaution' most are taking are to hoarde toilet paper, congregating in large gatherings to do so while flaunting the (arguably too weak) guidelines set by our state and federal government bodies.

Don't panic, go bushwalking.

But I would hasten to add,please, please, please stick to your own region or in the least, show respect when visiting other areas.
I live in the Barrington Tops and was so dismayed to ride my pushybike home from a solo country loop via my main street and see it teeming with people from out of town, paying no heed to social distancing. I swear it looked as if half of Sydney is up here. This is how things spread. Also, the local small grocery store was being heavily utilised by people from out of town- I really feel for our elderly residents who can only do their shopping here, unable to make the 100+km round trip out of town to go anywhere else. Mind you, the townsfolk were doing little to behave in a socially responsible manner, it was business as usual for everyone. I understand that the economic well being of many depend on visitors, we are also just recovering from an awful drought, but we need to be looking long term.

I am a healthcare worker and we have already had to officially answer to our employer re: giving up our annual leave this year, working more overtime (so 18 hours shifts, which we mostly do from time to time but will be far more frequent now) and also be deployed elsewhere interstate, wherever the need is highest. So seeing packed cafes and people visiting from other regions is not a heartening sight- this is real and I think many will be kicking themselves for not making more of an effort to limit the spread of this easily transmissible virus.

[Orion]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... ronavirus/

[Moondog55]

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... a_Pandemic

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-is-t ... are-staff/

[Neo]

Im loving Cecilez handiwork!

[GPSGuided]

Ribuck’s response at the beginning is correct. Something is better than nothing for this SARS-CoV-2 virus.

What I will add and in response to later comment by another. The govt message out there of mask being not of value for healthy individuals is wrong, big time! The only justification for that message is for a complete lack of masks in this country and we need to triage our available mask for the health professionals. But it’s a lie. Reality is, mass community mask use is a critical aspect of containment and mitigation as is known and applied by China and Sth Korea, the only two countries to go over the peak on the Bell curve, and China is the only one to take domestic new cases to zero in 2 months. Sth Korea still has a bit of a way to go.

Fact is, this COVID-19 has a high percentage of asymptomatic infectivity rate. In Icelandic community screen study as well as in the 600+ SARS-CoV-2 test positive cases, around 50% of the cohort were asymptomatic. Out of Wuhan community data, around 30% of test positive cases were asymptomatic. As such, masks should not only be used for symptomatic individuals (actually they should self-isolate and not even come out), it should be used by all in community to prevent spread should one be unknowingly contracted the infection but yet to show symptoms, and for all to have this last line of defence against anyone out there who are unknowingly spreading the virus. Mask also provides an active reminder for us to not touch our nose and mouth subconsciously.

So it is my professional advice for all here to wear a mask (correctly used) if you have them. If not, have a scarf, handkerchief are all better than openly breathing in potential virus loaded droplets. The best medical knowledge still suggests that direct large droplet spread is still the dominant route of transmission. The best practice on international data is now 2m separation, not the 1.5m advised by our department advice. Hand washing/sanitisation is still important as those droplets land on surfaces we touch. Separation, wear mask, wash hands, and don’t forget to take off your outer clothing and have them washed immediately too upon returning home. They can carry as much as your hands.

[myrtlegirl]

"One of the reasons we're not encouraging people to use them is because they may actually be giving people a false sense of security."

While some people wear face masks in a bid to reduce the number of times they touch their nose and mouth (therefore reducing their risk of infection), Dr Seale said it can also have the opposite effect.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020 ... n/12088314

I also wonder about virus-laden droplets from the air being held against your face - a bad thing.

[Moondog55]

Don't panic, go bushwalking.

Seriously, this has nothing to do about you dying. Your young and healthy. It's all about slowing down the contagion so there are enough respirators to go around and medical staff don't have to make life and death desicions about who gets treated and who doesn't.

If we do it right everyone who needs treatment will get it. Less deaths than the seasonal flu. Let's hope.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Well actually no. I'm no longer young, not as fit as I should be and it's possible I have an underlying medical condition that makes chest infections much worse for me that the general population. Turns out my mother had 3 siblings that died from Cystic Fibrosis in the '30s and she never bothered to tell any of us

[GPSGuided]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-03-25/coronavirus-covid-19-face-mask-surgical-mask-protection/12088314I also wonder about virus-laden droplets from the air being held against your face - a bad thing.

It's a tool, so has to be used according to instruction on top of various specs, including being single use. In terms of your concern for droplets, that's why proper medical specced masks have graded fluid repellency. Your concern is fully addressed. Being close to the face is fine, as long as it's not on the face.

Here, one also needs to understand the various specifications in masks, for which many are not even considered to be medical grade. Within medical grade under ASTM specification, there are 3 levels with 1 being used for basic use and 2 for regular ward use and 3 for surgical operations, where there's increased risks of blood splashes. Then above that there's the N95/P2 spec, used against aerosol spray as here when there's close contact with COVID-19 patients.

A timely article from the NYT,
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/27/heal ... Position=1

[GPSGuided]

Well actually no. I'm no longer young, not as fit as I should be and it's possible I have an underlying medical condition that makes chest infections much worse for me that the general population. Turns out my mother had 3 siblings that died from Cystic Fibrosis in the '30s and she never bothered to tell any of us

Cystic fibrosis is a recessive genetic disease, so if your mother didn't have it and you don't have it, then the next risk is passing the gene to your offspring. You are not associated with any of the CF risks. Your main risk would be your age and all the aging organs for the age group, that's all.

[Orion]

When the shelter-in-place order was announced in the city I live in (San Francisco) by coincidence I happened to be carrying a mask with me. So I put it on as I walked a kilometer or so through town:

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I'm not sure how much it protected me but I startled a woman when I looked through the window of the restaurant she was working in.


Other DIY options that I found on the web:

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[north-north-west]

I've been using the Buff as a smoke filter. It can double as a facemask during the next shopping trip.

[Gadgetgeek]

My mother in law is far better behind the sewing machine that I am, so she's making up a bunch. I have thoughts from today's supply run. Three shops, bunnings, woolies and aldi.
Lots of people wearing masks today, more than last I was out (end of last week) and just as many 60+. Bunnings was loaded with 60+ folks. Aldi and woolies had more people also wearing gloves (dubious utility, but if it makes you feel better?) Saw one girl, maybe 12-13, mask, vinyl food gloves and a "I'll kill you for this mother!" look that would curdle milk. Most of the masks were either old, incorrectly worn, or being misused in some other way. Watched one lady walk out of the shop, pull the mask down from her face (one of the salon spit-guard kind) and it rolled up under her chin. Lots of people with valved N95 masks, or dust masks. Only a few with proper n95s.
I'm under no impression that I'm helping me, but I do feel like the more masks are used, the more people think about it, the fewer people will die of embarrassment. Its hard to gauge if wearing a mask incorrectly in this case is actually more dangerous, I know that in some cases it can be. But if there is any chance that I lower my chance of passing it on while I'm doing supply runs for other people. Then its what I need to do.

[GPSGuided]

The risk of damage by wearing masks is way over blown. What the govt needs to do is to clear their lie and start teaching people how to wear masks properly, to optimise their function.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

For a start, out in community, there’s no need for N95 masks. Ideally we should use basic medical grade masks to capture large respiratory droplet from both sides (from mine going out and other’s coming in). But given the shortage in hospitals and GP practices, even those ‘3 layers’ salon masks are good enough. There are also home made masks from cotton fabrics to layered non-woven fabrics to vacuum cleaner HEPA bag mods. I like the following and is a definite goer. But one must change regularly and washed if they are home made cotton/synthetic fabric models.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W6d3twpHw ... e=youtu.be

[Gadgetgeek]

GPS, I agree. My main concern is that since we know that its droplet spread while asymptomatic, and that there is suspicion that it may be fully airborne, an improperly handled mask becomes a virus concentration unit, so education is key.

One of the factors that doesn't seem to get mentioned when it comes to mask cleaning is the biologic "gunk" that builds up on the inside. Sure its a slow build-up, but its still preventing airflow, and other stuff can start to grow on it.
Its a complex thing, and one that I hope in a year or so, we will have more info as part of basic information.

[photohiker]

GPSGuided.

Ok. Seems we should have them outside our home. Can see a lot of them on eBay do you have any idea which be good. See some are available in AU.

[Gadgetgeek]

https://freesewing.org/docs/patterns/fu

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tjmccue/20 ... 1457f74e41 If you want some more links and details to hunt through. Its not a super clean and tidy article, more of an info dump.

[Ms_Mudd]

If you google 'donning and doffing' you will come up with some decent youtube resources regarding use of PPE.

Honestly, in the face of all of this a colleague and I on a night duty a few weeks ago binge watched a whole heap of clips as a refresher. We do barrier nurse people from time to time ie. gastro, influenza , but it isn't something in my area of work that we do every single week, so it didn't hurt for us to give ourselves a good old 2am inservice session on it.

I think a home made mask worn and removed correctly has to be far superior to not wearing one at all. Keep sewing you crafty folk!

Don't forget your shoes though as well, do not wear them anywhere near your front door or into your home if you have been out and about in them.