Timber industry the ultimate conservationists

[gayet]

Thanks sbs
I read that article earlier but the site was unavailable so couldn't post the link. I would hope these findings are more widely read so some independent (one hopes) information can get out there.

[Pteropus]

Who would have thought it, a politician making counterfactual statements to gain votes...especially such an upstanding stickler for the facts like Abbott! I'm in shock...
(where's a vomit emoticon when I need one....)

[frenchy_84]

I've walked across Tasmania from north to south and been through a lot of forests on the way and I believe that one of the worst thing the Green groups have done is to push forestry into excessive use of plantations.

Native forest regrowth is far better than monoculture plantations. We should be encouraging forestry in Tasmania to use native forests with regrowth cycles of 50 years or more. Instead they have been forced into replacing native forests with plantations in case someone classifies the regrowth as old growth and they can never go back there

I fully agree.

Hang on a minute, it is not the greens who 'forced' forestry to turn native forest into plantations. It was the forest industry who started replacing native forest with plantations and it was only through pressure from green groups that this stopped. For a number of years now, logged native forest has not be permitted to be replanted with plantations. It is the greens argument that due to the amount of timber in plantations and managed native forest if properly managed (value add not bulk chips) then there is no need to continue logging new areas. It is comical to believe that the Liberals believe that we can compete in a global market for wood chips! In the last election campaign the Liberals tried to change the image of forestry from an industry which creates woodchips from old growth (which is what it did) to this noble industry of specialty timber managers worthy of knighthood. When the truth is this was a minor sectorof the industry. Now Tony Abbot would have us believe that they go in to the forest select the tree they need and remove it with out damaging the neighbouring trees. When the truth is, wether its for chips or fine furniture the left over couple still looks the same as in SBS images.
I believe we need a vibrant timber industry, one which value adds with engineered timber mainly from plantation with some harvesting from native forests but what the Liberals have come to the party with is a plan which involves ripping up a current agreement/logging WHA forests and no actually plan for a sustainable industry.

[stepbystep]

I believe we need a vibrant timber industry, one which value adds with engineered timber mainly from plantation with some harvesting from native forests but what the Liberals have come to the party with is a plan which involves ripping up a current agreement/logging WHA forests and no actually plan for a sustainable industry.

Agreed 100%, coupled with government will to build a hemp for paper and fibre industry and encouragement of new plantation timber downstream processing industries like the production of laminated beams for construction and innovative furniture production techniques as detailed in the links I have previously provided. What do we have? Hope, jobs and a sustainable future. Wow!

[Nuts]

Of course it's hard to be proven wrong without first getting a shot at the helm. The public servants will still be in place, the administrators will sill be as ineffectual as they ever have been.. someone actually has to do these things, some of them requiring investments or lifestyle changes and far harder decisions than just to vote (or whinge) (or remain outraged).

[maddog]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-26/tony-abbott-tasmanian-wilderness-claim-does-not-check-out/5345072

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” - Joseph Goebbels

Do photos freshly snapped after logging accurately reflect what the compartment will look like after a few decades? Do trees grow back? Does our protesting photographer provide images of 30-50 year regrowth forest to provide perspective? Is the intention to inform or mislead? Do activist photographers who quote Goebbels themselves carry on in the manner consistent with the advice of Goebbels?

...

Hang on a minute...

You have misquoted Frenchy.

More generally. While it is true that environmentalists are increasingly finding themselves isolated as public opinion moves against them, it is interesting that the only stakeholder (other than the greens) maintaining a commitment to the forestry agreement are the foresters themselves. Who would have thought?

The Greens really should be making friends. Write to the CFMEU and thank them for supporting the agreement. Offer yours in return.

Cheers.

[frenchy_84]

Sorry Maddog, I have amended.

Another thing which no one has mentioned yet is the technique of foresters to build a road through the valley and log coupes in the furthest sections of the valley rather than work from the edges in. This has now allowed these arguments of degraded valleys where there are 1 or 2 coupes taken out in an otherwise untouched valley giving reason to disregarding the whole valley on its conservation values rather than using forest on the edges and then preserving the rest. Hardly a technique of true conservationists.

[stepbystep]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-26/tony-abbott-tasmanian-wilderness-claim-does-not-check-out/5345072

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” - Joseph Goebbels

Do photos freshly snapped after logging accurately reflect what the compartment will look like after a few decades? Do trees grow back? Does our protesting photographer provide images of 30-50 year regrowth forest to provide perspective? Is the intention to inform or mislead? Do activist photographers who quote Goebbels themselves carry on in the manner consistent with the advice of Goebbels?

Truth is all I'm interested in. That's why I volunteer. Believe what you feel you need to maddog....

[Nuts]

Sorry Maddog, I have amended.

Another thing which no one has mentioned yet is the technique of foresters to build a road through the valley and log coupes in the furthest sections of the valley rather than work from the edges in. This has now allowed these arguments of degraded valleys where there are 1 or 2 coupes taken out in an otherwise untouched valley giving reason to disregarding the whole valley on its conservation values rather than using forest on the edges and then preserving the rest. Hardly a technique of true conservationists.

Exactly, similar techniques (road verge visual buffers, erosion and weed control where it will be seen, unaccountable other than playing such games) have been part of forestry practice for at least 30yrs.. as iv'e recalled earlier. Forestry and forest contractors aren't acting as conservationists. There is no reason to expect forestry/alternative forest products in an open market would look any different or better (and yes, those coupes aren't fresh for anyone trying to glean purpose from piccies). Nevertheless these people are the ones that surely need to be considered in any transition. Managed to make forestry in some form sustainable and efficient.

I can't imagine some of these guys here settling for a bowl carving job (jj)

[maddog]

G'day Frenchy,

If an area of native forests is set aside for forestry it makes no sense to work only the edges. Each compartment, that is not being maintained as nature reserve, will be logged in turn as it is ready to yield timber product. If logging deeply within a forest, exposure to the surrounding (non-forest) landscape is reduced, increasing the likelihood that regrowth will have similar characteristics to the surrounding forest, and decreasing the degree to which weed species infiltrate.

G'day SBS,

It's not really a good tactical move comparing Tony the Abbott (or his supporters) with Goebbels. When the conversation goes that way it tends to move towards a polemic discussion of 'blood and soil'. Concerning your photos, it would be great to see some of Tasmania's previously logged areas (say 30 to 50 year regrowth). Fifty year old native forest regrowth looks almost untouched up my way.

G'day Nuts,

Yep. You won't win without them. The Greens have no other friends left.

Cheers.

[frenchy_84]

G'day Frenchy,

If an area of native forests is set aside for forestry it makes no sense to work only the edges. Each compartment, that is not being maintained as nature reserve, will be logged in turn as it is ready to yield timber product. If logging deeply within a forest, exposure to the surrounding (non-forest) landscape is reduced, increasing the likelihood that regrowth will have similar characteristics to the surrounding forest, and decreasing the degree to which weed species infiltrate.

Cheers.

I don't mean work the edges as in only take a little bit from the front, but as a coupe is required take it from the front of the valley first, rather than build a road right to the end of the valley and take random coupes deep within it. The sceptics amongst us see that as a deliberate ploy to degrade the natural values of the area so then when the political climate changes the argument to save WHA quality forests is weakened. Like we are seeing now with the Abbott government removal of WHA forests.

[maddog]

Frenchy,

The foresters will select the compartment from the area most suited to their needs. The native forestry estate is after all a reserve provided for the extraction of timber resources. On the WHA forests, the foresters union, the CFMEU, could not be more clear:

The National President of the CFMEU Forestry and Furnishing Products Division, Jane Calvert, said the incoming Tasmanian Liberal Government did not have a mandate to destroy its members’ jobs.

She said the union did not support Premier-elect Will Hodgman’s plan to tear up the Tasmanian Forest Agreement.

“Ending this Agreement will put timber workers’ jobs on the path to destruction,” Ms Calvert said.

“Mr Hodgman does not have our endorsement to destroy jobs.

“Undoing the conservation outcomes achieved by the Agreement will reintroduce conflict – and conflict will destroy markets both nationally and internationally.

“If markets stop taking Tasmanian timber products, then existing jobs will be lost and the industry not only loses the potential for growth but will battle to survive.

“Furthermore, the Tasmanian saw milling industry does not want wood from contentious forests.

“It’s a purely political and provocative act by Will Hodgman and Tony Abbott to declare they will undo the World Heritage areas,” Ms Calvert said.

http://www.cfmeu.net.au/news/cfmeu-fore ... orest-plan

And this:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014 ... an-forests

You are all in furious agreement with the foresters. Why not email Ms Calvert and thank her for her support?

Cheers.

[stepbystep]

G'day SBS,

It's not really a good tactical move comparing Tony the Abbott (or his supporters) with Goebbels. When the conversation goes that way it tends to move towards a polemic discussion of 'blood and soil'. Concerning your photos, it would be great to see some of Tasmania's previously logged areas (say 30 to 50 year regrowth). Fifty year old native forest regrowth looks almost untouched up my way.
Cheers.

I'm sorry maddog but my judgement of this government goes to a vast sweep of it's policies, I'm trying to keep to forestry but my bias against the rest of it's deeds probably creep in. I actually met Tony briefly on Monday night in the 'great hall of the people' at the Migration Awards gala dinner. He was without doubt the most despised person in that room, for very good reason! I am absolutely comfortable comparing Tony(or Kevin's) government to the Goebbels doctrine because it's absolutely how any smart government has operated(manipulated) their serfs in their kingdoms. Call me ignorant

In case you haven't got it yet I want to STOP the push into previously unlogged areas, regrowth, no worries, lets talk, plantations, lets talk, selective logging, lets talk, specialty timber, lets talk, hemp farming, lets talk, downstream processing, lets talk. But, hey, us 'greenies' are immovable in our attitudes

[Clusterpod]

When the Prime Minister can get away with an outright, bald-faced, shameless lie, I'm not sure where the motivation to tell the truth is for anyone who can make a buck out of forestry.

The Federal Government lied to help the state government, who lied to get elected. Investors will lie, the developers will lie, the managers will lie, while the guys on the ground will probably keep their heads down, pleased for the work.

Years later when it all goes to *&%$#!, like it always has, they will all lie some more about who did what, when and why, and the guys on the ground will be paying for the clean-up with their jobs and their tax-dollars along with everyone else in the peasantry.

A few slaps on the wrist will be handed out, lied about, and we'll all be able to blame The Greens and conservation groups and the luvvie environmentalists again, because they forced this all to happen.

The wheel goes around.

[stepbystep]

Frenchy,

The foresters will select the compartment from the area most suited to their needs. The native forestry estate is after all a reserve provided for the extraction of timber resources. On the WHA forests, the foresters union, the CFMEU, could not be more clear:

The National President of the CFMEU Forestry and Furnishing Products Division, Jane Calvert, said the incoming Tasmanian Liberal Government did not have a mandate to destroy its members’ jobs.

She said the union did not support Premier-elect Will Hodgman’s plan to tear up the Tasmanian Forest Agreement.

“Ending this Agreement will put timber workers’ jobs on the path to destruction,” Ms Calvert said.

“Mr Hodgman does not have our endorsement to destroy jobs.

“Undoing the conservation outcomes achieved by the Agreement will reintroduce conflict – and conflict will destroy markets both nationally and internationally.

“If markets stop taking Tasmanian timber products, then existing jobs will be lost and the industry not only loses the potential for growth but will battle to survive.

“Furthermore, the Tasmanian saw milling industry does not want wood from contentious forests.

“It’s a purely political and provocative act by Will Hodgman and Tony Abbott to declare they will undo the World Heritage areas,” Ms Calvert said.

http://www.cfmeu.net.au/news/cfmeu-fore ... orest-plan

And this:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014 ... an-forests

You are all in furious agreement with the foresters. Why not email Ms Calvert and thank her for her support?

Cheers.

You have demonstrated a complete misunderstanding of the situation on the ground in Tasmania, or the evolution of the TFA. Do some research maddog and don't just C&P press releases. The union walked away from the TFA the day after Tony's now infamous speech...union leaders need votes too you know...

[maddog]

G'day SBS,

Tony the Abbott's speech to the Australian Forest Products association was made on the 5/3/14. The CFMEU press release was made on the 17/3/14. Both environmental groups (such as the Wilderness Society) and the representatives of organised labour (the CFMEU) were not invited to subsequent talks. You never know, I may understand a little more than you realise, but only a fool would think the Greens will win this on their own.

BTW Tasmania is not where this will stop. There is plenty of 'degraded' forest in NSW.

Cheers.

[Nuts]

If an area of native forests is set aside for forestry it makes no sense to work only the edges. Each compartment, that is not being maintained as nature reserve, will be logged in turn as it is ready to yield timber product. If logging deeply within a forest, exposure to the surrounding (non-forest) landscape is reduced, increasing the likelihood that regrowth will have similar characteristics to the surrounding forest, and decreasing the degree to which weed species infiltrate.

This does make sense.
However, there is no good reason (environmental or economic) there to bypass so much viable timber of similar age, maintain distances and roads and associated disturbances, to select an area for logging without other purpose. Frenchy's skepticism is almost definitely warranted.

And yes, one would think they'd 'need' like-minded friends.

[stepbystep]

G'day SBS,

Tony the Abbott's speech to the Australian Forest Products association was made on the 5/3/14. The CFMEU press release was made on the 17/3/14. Both environmental groups (such as the Wilderness Society) and the representatives of organised labour (the CFMEU) were not invited to subsequent talks. You never know, I may understand a little more than you realise, but only a fool would think the Greens will win this on their own.

BTW Tasmania is not where this will stop. There is plenty of 'degraded' forest in NSW.

Cheers.

The unions were present at Mr Abbott's speech and the 'softening up' started the day after. If you are aware, and cognisant of how things really have transpired you would be understanding of this.

EDIT: I operate in the real world, not one of press releases....

[maddog]

EDIT: I operate in the real world, not one of press releases....

Meanwhile, in the real world:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... 32d0q.html

http://www.cfmeu.asn.au/news/royal-comm ... ons-abbott’s-back-door-to-cut-wages-and-conditions

[stepbystep]

EDIT: I operate in the real world, not one of press releases....

Meanwhile, in the real world:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... 32d0q.html

http://www.cfmeu.asn.au/news/royal-comm ... ons-abbott’s-back-door-to-cut-wages-and-conditions

...and once again you fail to understand the issue in a Tasmanian context...do some research on who does deals with unions down here.

[maddog]

But they were left in the cold, not invited to Premier Hodgman little meeting. The CFMEU and the Wilderness society both key stakeholders? No? The union will defend it's members interests (as they showed when they supported Howard). They support foresters and forestry. They are not supporting Tony the Abbott or Premier Hodgman. Why?

[stepbystep]

But they were left in the cold, not invited to Premier Hodgman little meeting. The CFMEU and the Wilderness society both key stakeholders? No? The union will defend it's members interests (as they showed when they supported Howard). They support foresters and forestry. They are not supporting Tony the Abbott or Premier Hodgman. Why?

I have no idea who Mr Hodgman asked to his meeting but this lot signed the TFA and he ruled out talking to any ENGO.

http://www.forestsagreement.tas.gov.au/ ... gnatories/

The CFMEU were the first to turn. The cynical amongst us would think the various union officials are looking at their own short term status quo? Non? There are warm dark places behind closed doors when it's cold. Out in the open, your fire burns brightly, but leaves you vulnerable.

EDIT: Sorry I didn't answer you directly. The CFMEU are supporting this move, 100%. They are a far more powerful political party than The Greens!

[maddog]

Out in the open, your fire burns brightly, but leaves you vulnerable.

The CFMEU are the only ones, other than the environmental groups, that (to date) have not reneged on the TFA. If you are cold SBS you need to snuggle up to friends. However you find them.

[stepbystep]

Out in the open, your fire burns brightly, but leaves you vulnerable.

The CFMEU are the only ones, other than the environmental groups, that (to date) have not reneged on the TFA. If you are cold SBS you need to snuggle up to friends. However you find them.

You are wrong, the CFMEU are happy, but don't wallow publicly in an LNP victory. They need to appear invisible. Remember far more people are employed under other unions. Self interest rules, ok? Get it? Bigger picture? I will re-iterate. If you were aware of the subtleties involved you would understand the CFMEU were the first to turn. I see the whole press conference, not just the 10" grab stuck in a news story.

"You know nothing Jon Snow"

[maddog]

the CFMEU are happy, but don't wallow publicly in an LNP victory. They need to appear invisible.

Why? If the CFMEU were happy that the TFA had collapsed they would say so. They would be dancing in the street. They have never wished to appear 'invisible' before. They are a militant union which (in the past) famously turned on the Labor party (in the middle of a federal election campaign). Now all of a sudden, at the greens lowest ebb, they wish to be 'invisible'? Really?

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1214506.htm

Cheers.

[stepbystep]

the CFMEU are happy, but don't wallow publicly in an LNP victory. They need to appear invisible.

Why? If the CFMEU were happy that the TFA had collapsed they would say so. They would be dancing in the street. They have never wished to appear 'invisible' before. They are a militant union which (in the past) famously turned on the Labor party. Now all of a sudden, at the greens lowest ebb, they wish to be 'invisible'? Really

Cheers.

I give up. The thirsty horse has been led to the water trough and refuses to drink. I've told you why, you don't understand how Tasmania works, obviously lol ..!? Yeah, funny...haha...not.

PS I love dogs, your avatar gives them a bad name, dogs are beautiful creatures driven by empathy and love, humans are ugly and "mad" please reconsider your new avatar "madman" perhaps?

[Nuts]

and food! empathy, 'love' and food! They learn by repetition though, patience and repetition.
(sorry, just thought i'd add what I knew about dogs.. carry on )

[stepbystep]

and food! empathy, 'love' and food! They learn by repetition though, patience and repetition.
(sorry, just thought i'd add what I knew about dogs.. carry on )

hehe, yes they have to patiently put up with the repetitive food we give them, and after that rubbish they love us.

[Pteropus]

Interesting analysis of how the cancellation of the forestry agreement in Tas is likely to play out in the market -> http://theconversation.com/ripping-up-t ... boom-24473
From the article: "Ironically, the Liberals, who are supposed to understand markets, are about to find out how they really work."
It has been my observation of the Liberal Party over the years that they have less of an understanding of how markets work than they like to think they do (not that I know much either, but its not my area). Though, as discussed by many, I never saw the cancellation about business and markets, but more about votes.

(oh, and I noted a friendly kookaburra in the comments )

[north-north-west]

Because, of course, absolutely everyone who voted Liberal did so over the Tasmanian Forestry/WHA issue - or at least agrees 100% with their stance on it. Of course.

It could be argued that citizens voted out a government that had been in too long. However they did so with full knowledge of what the Liberal's planned to do (at least with respect to forestry). People either voted them in supporting this policy or they were not too concerned about it. Either way, the government can claim a democratic mandate.

People voted for them because there were other matters they felt were more important, or they didn't know about what was planned because they only paid attention to what most closely interested them (usually their bank balances). Most voters/people aren't entirely stupid, they're just selfish and short-sighted.