Climate change ???

[wayno]

I'd be surprised if Aus's fish stocks are particularly healthy, NZ has done a pretty good job of buggering their fish stock, selling quotas to foreign fleets doesnt help not to mention illegal pillaging that goes on. the quality of fish individuals catch has dropped a great deal over the years

[Giddy_up]

You can't win wayno, just do your bit I guess and the rest is out of our hands. My fear is our producing land and systems are being purchased by off shore corporations or Sovereign States and the discussion is taken out of our hands. You would have seen that in the NZ dairy industry, and until the big consumers of protein are taxed we won't see any real change to the whole debate. You have to tax the user so the price shock causes a re-think in purchasing.


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[wayno]

yeah if you're not quick at aucklands cheaper supermarkets you'll be lucky to find infant formula. the chinese buy it straight off the supermarket shelves and ship it back to china... after the big malamine scare the chinese can't get enough of nz dairy, they are about to build a massive factory here to send even more back... plus the purchase of 16 farms recently from a bankrupt farmer.. the largest single privately owned collection of farms in nz

[Hallu]

Fish stocks aren't as healthy as they should be around here, but it's nothing compared to Europe which basically destroyed the stocks of cod, salmon and red tuna in the Atlantic/Mediterranean. Not to mention shrimps.

[Earthling]

....start having a look at kangaroo, wallaby and emu meat, which are all delicious.

Agreed, I eat wallaby(kangaroo on the mainland) regularly, however you can't farm them and gathering them is inefficient and borderline cruel(it literally involves dudes on the back of utes at night with guns).

Nothing borderline cruel about that, its just plain cruel. I shot for years, but you can only cut so many young joeys heads off that you pull from pouches before you start questioning the real worth of what your doing...money...protein...better sources than this. Plus theres the joeys at foot that still rely on mothers milk, they slowly starve to death. And really...head shots 100%, doesnt happen. Cruel, clear and simple. I'm amazed that it still continues as a business to be honest.

[stepbystep]

Fish stocks aren't as healthy as they should be around here, but it's nothing compared to Europe which basically destroyed the stocks of cod, salmon and red tuna in the Atlantic/Mediterranean. Not to mention shrimps.

It's not rosy here I don't think you have the anecdotal experience many of us have. Where I grew up, fish and crustacean resources have been decimated and many others have the same story all over Australia.

[stepbystep]

....start having a look at kangaroo, wallaby and emu meat, which are all delicious.

Agreed, I eat wallaby(kangaroo on the mainland) regularly, however you can't farm them and gathering them is inefficient and borderline cruel(it literally involves dudes on the back of utes at night with guns).

Nothing borderline cruel about that, its just plain cruel. I shot for years, but you can only cut so many young joeys heads off that you pull from pouches before you start questioning the real worth of what your doing...money...protein...better sources than this. Plus theres the joeys at foot that still rely on mothers milk, they slowly starve to death. And really...head shots 100%, doesnt happen. Cruel, clear and simple. I'm amazed that it still continues as a business to be honest.

Yep that's what I was getting at. I get my wallaby from a farmer privately but as a commercial operation it's just not sustainable or ethical IMHO...

[Earthling]

Yep that's what I was getting at. I get my wallaby from a farmer privately but as a commercial operation it's just not sustainable or ethical IMHO...

Cool, I remember reading some stats regarding if Australians totally switched over to eating just roo and we would run out of roos after 2 days...

If your still eating it you might want to be carefull, saw this on ABC today:
"A study into red meat has thrown doubt on the belief that kangaroo is one of the healthiest red meats.
The research, published in the journal Nature Medicine, shows a compound called carnitine, that's found in high quantities in kangaroo meat, can increase the risk of heart attacks.
Monash University's professor John Funder says more research needs to be done to confirm exactly how much of a factor carnitine is in cardiovascular disease.
"Even though kangaroo meat is low in fat and thus is talked about as being a healthy sort of meat, it's got the highest carnatine levels of any sort of red meat," he said.
"So, maybe it's not so safe despite it being low fat."

[Clusterpod]

..

[Nuts]

Emu actually farm very well in an open range situation and are a very 'efficient' farm 'product'. We had them on our family farm. Playing games trying to farm them on any scale with the usual onerous regulation and dismal support for new industries (where the old ones are so powerful). Such things might be distasteful, lots of options are. I agree though, far better things done than thoughts thought, they do need to quickly become of big enough scale.

[stepbystep]

Yep that's what I was getting at. I get my wallaby from a farmer privately but as a commercial operation it's just not sustainable or ethical IMHO...

Cool, I remember reading some stats regarding if Australians totally switched over to eating just roo and we would run out of roos after 2 days...

If your still eating it you might want to be carefull, saw this on ABC today:
"A study into red meat has thrown doubt on the belief that kangaroo is one of the healthiest red meats.
The research, published in the journal Nature Medicine, shows a compound called carnitine, that's found in high quantities in kangaroo meat, can increase the risk of heart attacks.
Monash University's professor John Funder says more research needs to be done to confirm exactly how much of a factor carnitine is in cardiovascular disease.
"Even though kangaroo meat is low in fat and thus is talked about as being a healthy sort of meat, it's got the highest carnatine levels of any sort of red meat," he said.
"So, maybe it's not so safe despite it being low fat."

Yep I saw that, not sure what to make of it, but I don't eat it for the low fat thing but that's another issue. We as a society just have to get used to eating less meat.

[Strider]

I'd be surprised if Aus's fish stocks are particularly healthy, NZ has done a pretty good job of buggering their fish stock, selling quotas to foreign fleets doesnt help not to mention illegal pillaging that goes on. the quality of fish individuals catch has dropped a great deal over the years

Status of Key Australian Fish Stocks 2012

http://www.fish.gov.au/reports/Documents/SAFS_Report-Full.pdf

[corvus]

MODS where are you?? this has departed from a Bushwalk topic I believe ,more a he said you said my expert is better than yours
Go elsewhare please .
corvus

[Strider]

MODS where are you?? this has departed from a Bushwalk topic I believe ,more a he said you said my expert is better than yours
Go elsewhare please .
corvus

Press the report button if you have an issue

[Hallu]

Actually it never started as a bushwalking discussion...

[Hallu]

I'd be surprised if Aus's fish stocks are particularly healthy, NZ has done a pretty good job of buggering their fish stock, selling quotas to foreign fleets doesnt help not to mention illegal pillaging that goes on. the quality of fish individuals catch has dropped a great deal over the years

Status of Key Australian Fish Stocks 2012

http://www.fish.gov.au/reports/Documents/SAFS_Report-Full.pdf

Only 2 overfished stocks over the 150 examined ? I could say "I was right" but this is so suspiciously low that I'm gonna say instead "who in the name of God did this rubbish assessment ?". I'm obviously not gonna read the 420 pages, but clearly something is wrong. Flatheads, blue grenadiers and snappers are clearly overfished, and almost all the sharks in the world are too... That's already more than 2. Maybe not by Australian vessels and then that's how it's biased ? It doesn't take into account foreign catches in Aussie waters ? Don't know. But no sea in the WORLD is THAT healthy, there's just no way. Or they just modified the criterias qualifying a fish stock as "sustainable" in order to score the highest, and I wouldn't be surprised by that... I'd be more inclined to trust this : http://www.sustainableseafood.org.au/Su ... age_id=702 , it's simple yet very detailed.

[doogs]

Corvus does have a point, this IS the bushwalking discussion section of the forum... quick change the subject before we get into trouble

[Strider]

8 degrees outside by my thermometer. Seems normal for mid-April?

[wayno]

Yep that's what I was getting at. I get my wallaby from a farmer privately but as a commercial operation it's just not sustainable or ethical IMHO...

Cool, I remember reading some stats regarding if Australians totally switched over to eating just roo and we would run out of roos after 2 days...

If your still eating it you might want to be carefull, saw this on ABC today:
"A study into red meat has thrown doubt on the belief that kangaroo is one of the healthiest red meats.
The research, published in the journal Nature Medicine, shows a compound called carnitine, that's found in high quantities in kangaroo meat, can increase the risk of heart attacks.
Monash University's professor John Funder says more research needs to be done to confirm exactly how much of a factor carnitine is in cardiovascular disease.
"Even though kangaroo meat is low in fat and thus is talked about as being a healthy sort of meat, it's got the highest carnatine levels of any sort of red meat," he said.
"So, maybe it's not so safe despite it being low fat."

carnitine is normally associated with meat high in fat, like mutton.... so the people in the study with high carnitine intakes are likely to have higher than average fat intakes... and higher risk of heart disease,, carnitine is involved in fat metabolism, its recommended to help people loose weight, so how they arrive at carniting putting people at risk of heart disease sounds dubious

[wayno]

the weathers just nutty, after months of the worst drought in nz, , it hoses down all night and morning and its 24 degrees, thats not normal for nz in april.
the nine day forecast is for nine more days of rain.

[Hallu]

YEah that's why they change the name from global warming to global change. In average it's warmer, but at a precise location all you'll feel is an increase in extreme events. Extreme cold in winter, extreme heat, extreme storms etc...

[photohiker]

MODS where are you?? this has departed from a Bushwalk topic I believe ,more a he said you said my expert is better than yours
Go elsewhare please .
corvus

I just asked my expert about this.

He said "If corvus doesn't like what he is reading, tell him not to look. The participants of the discussion of a potentially fraught subject are keeping it cordial"

Look away, corvus and your world will automatically re-balance itself.

[Nuts]

Iv'e moved the topic. These do tend to quickly become a call for grandiose plans so I wonder at the point.. but then there are no rules abt keeping feet on the ground or the amount of expert googling one can include.

[Moondog55]

I asked the original question because I wanted to understand the impact of climate change on my favourite pastime, not to start a debate on the ethics of eating red meat or pastoral activities.
As an aside tho you do need to draw a distinction between arable land of which Australia has very little really and pastoral land of which Australia has much.
While I think that we will get snow this season and my comment was in part tongue in cheek; I do wonder how long it is going to be before big business and private individuals stop behaving like spoiled kids and start working to slow down the change.
Many other parts of the world are worse off than Australia and we are close to the "K-Limit" at the moment.
With all due respect to the Vegans and Vegetarians amongst us eating red meat isn't the problem, it is probably that the resources are unfairly distributed and the simple fact that there are too many of us for our current level of technology and ethical behavior.
Perhaps if we all did a little more with a little less ( I haven't bought any new gear for a decade for instance ) and made do with what we have for a little longer we can work through this without loosing all we have.
Will climate change mean I have to always plan to carry more water? Will it mean that I have to start taking many more precautions against insect disease vectors? Will I really need a minus 30 sleeping bag for my next purchase or will I be OK with a cotton sheet? These are the immediate questions we need to ask as regards bushwalking.

[wayno]

probably all comes down to where the money is, as long as oney is being made out of the status quo then it will continue, when theres enough financial incentive to change then there will be more chance.
hard to know exactly what the changes will be, you may have to wait and see what they are.. some place are getting wetter, others drier, some hotter some colder... and who predicted that would happen on a location by locaton basis, all thats been talked about over the years was getting warmer, and a bit about changing rainfall. all new to me that places could get colder...

[doogs]

all new to me that places could get colder...

It's a fact that the southern hemisphere is cooler than the northern hemisphere, this is due to the very high heat capacity of water. The souther n hemisphere contains a lot more water than the northern one... soooo if sea levels were to rise this would lead to a larger proportion of the Earth covered in water and therefore the climate would cool. Water is pretty awesome stuff, another climate related water fact is that in it's solid form water floats, if it didn't the ice would sink to the bottom and the oceans would freeze and life would never have happened in the first place

[Son of a Beach]

Animals cannot evolve within a single generation!

Well, technically, according to evolutionary theory, they can. It's just a matter of which generation(s) it would occur in. It's all a matter of complete fluke whether not a particular genetic change occurs in the generation for which it would be advantageous and whether or not the change is sufficient to be advantageous. If you subscribe to the theory. (I don't subscribe to the theory, but don't have strong feelings on it either way.)

You have described a simple genetic mutation. Evolution refers to multiple successive changes over multiple generations. Sure, a mutation can kick things off in the right direction, but (you said it yourself) its just a fluke - suggesting its not a direct response to changing environmental pressures.

According to the theory, a single small genetic change can result in a new species and can be an evolution (although of course fluking a male and female at the same time would help). Furthermore, new species do not occur in response to environmental pressures, but only by complete fluke. According to the theory, the environmental pressures may only affect whether the changes cause the new species or the old species to be more dominant (or neither), and may cause one (or the other) to die out.

But anyhow, I was only bringing it up as a very minor technicality and very off-topic. So sorry for that.

[Moondog55]

It's called "Punctuated equilibrium" by one expert in the field [ now deceased] who was of the opinion that new species could appear almost instantly in geological terms, indeed there is evidence that this has happened to Tiger snakes in the Bass Straight islands in the last 8000 years.

[Giddy_up]

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/re ... 008_pg.gif

Looks to me like we have been in this territory before, or at least the U.S has.

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[alliecat]

Sigh. Why do people post rubbish like this? The US is less than 2% of the earth's surface. Plotting US temperatures and claiming "we have been in this territory before" is misleading at best, dishonest at worst. Pathetic.