Overpopulation

[Wollemi]

Topic split from here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13829,

When the years get wound back and you see it all starting again and see in your children the 'you' coming out and then in their children.

Dare I say that this is a selfish POV, moreso when a national population debate has been talked of in political and ecological circles in the past few years, if not longer.

In a world where we talk of peak oil, escaping the rat race and living in a land of shallow and fragile soils, it may just be incorrect for us to accept the notion of the want of parenthood, and hence a continued upward population count.

I do not deny the right of the child and those who are already here. I query the motives of commonsense being left behind and replaced with innate desires without regard to the current and future state of the planet.

Challenge yourself at a basic level; how many times this year did you say something akin to;
- 'I don't want to go there for a holiday - it sounds crowded'
- 'The shops were packed tonight'
- 'There aren't enough hospital beds'
- 'We had to wait ages to see a doctor/wait a while in the queue to get in/be served'
- 'Looks like a new housing development going in over there - I remember when you could see more of the bushland gully'.

http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/ecologicalfootprint/

[simonm]

Wollemi - I take it you don't have children of your own?

[FatCanyoner]

I have a friend who decided not to have kids for ecological reasons. His partner agrees. Despite only being about 30 they've taken the necessary steps to ensure having kids isn't possible.

I on the other hand have three kids. I've never really thought too much about the topic until the last few months. My wife, who is one of six, would like to have more. I've always been fine with that, but recently I've been starting to have the same pangs of concern Wollemi obviously has. How sustainable is my choice? How selfish is it? What are my motives for having more kids?

Apparently the most sustainable action you can do is not reproduce. The environment would be better off if I bought a big SUV and filled my house with power guzzling appliances rather than had another kid. It's a challenging way to look at things.

Then there is my sister in law, who has eight children...

[taswegian]

Wollemi that was an unexpected response.
I'm curious what one does when they live every day as if its your last? (Your statement at end of your posts)

Yes I am challenged by our environmental impact.

My comment comes from my own experience. Simply what has happened around me.
Would I do things differently now after all those years? Hindsight is only that, and never foresight in advance.
Also children happen. What was I to do with the unplanned family member?

Then there's environmentaly concerned people who oppose most things, but do worse with a few things.
Its easy to be one thing in our mind, but not so easy to carry it through 100% of our time.
Not sure Fatcanyoners theory is the way to go either.

So yes. How with all that in mind do you live today like its your last?
Do nothing so not to cause grief to this beautiful world?

Personally I would rather spend time with my kids or theirs than expend my energies on the luxuries of life that many just cant live without.

Nothing beats an afternoon rolling around the back lawn with your grandson with nothing more for toys than a handful of cumquats for balls, some discarded cardboard tubes and an old plastic cup or two.
Easy to get so engrossed and forget to feed the little tacker. Haven't heard so much giggling for yonks.
I'd recommend to anyone.

[taswegian]

Challenge yourself at a basic level; how many times this year did you say something akin to;- 'I don't want to go there for a holiday - it sounds crowded' - 'The shops were packed tonight' - 'There aren't enough hospital beds'- 'We had to wait ages to see a doctor/wait a while in the queue to get in/be served'- 'Looks like a new housing development going in over there - I remember when you could see more of the bushland gully'.

Bushwalking - ususally multi-day walks in Tasmania after delivering sloops as crew from Sydney to Hobart. Kayaking - Since 2007, have island-hopped Bass Strait thrice - includes both Flinders Is. + King Is. routes. Rock-climbing - Katoomba's Narrow Neck Plateau + Arapiles. XC skiing - a few tele-ski approaches to Blue Lake in Kosciuszko NP, to enjoy ice-climbing, although NZ is better for that ! Wind-surfing - goal is to board the length of Lake Macquarie

Sorry but reading this makes me really wonder what your response was about.

[Strider]

Sorry but reading this makes me really wonder what your response was about.

He is saying don't complain about there being too many people if you yourself are responsible for adding to the population by having children.

As for challenging at a basic level, IMO this is about as basic as a level of thinking could ever get. It is not simply a numbers game.

[Taurë-rana]

Thank you everyone for sharing my joy, I had no idea it was so wonderful to be a grandparent and I'm very lucky to live so close.

Wollemi, what can I say? I feel very sad for you that you have never and presumably will never feel the joy that goes with parenthood/grandparenthood.

This child wasn't planned, her parents are only kids themselves but chose to accept responsibility for her and didn't get rid of her.

Yes, the world is overcrowded and I certainly took issue with 'one for mum and dad and one for the country' recently, but replacing oneself is not irresponsible, and there are quite a lot of people who choose not to have children because it would impact on their lifestyle - a lifestyle that often uses far more of the world's resources than having a family does, because they can afford to consume far more.

Along with an overpopulated world, the huge issue that is stuffing the earth is what we expect as our lifestyle. If all of us accepted lower living conditions, less 'stuff', smaller houses, etc, there wouldn't be such a problem with the world.

[Taurë-rana]

Sorry but reading this makes me really wonder what your response was about.

He is saying don't complain about there being too many people if you yourself are responsible for adding to the population by having children.

As for challenging at a basic level, IMO this is about as basic as a level of thinking could ever get. It is not simply a numbers game.

It's not ultimately adding to the population if between two of you, you only have two children. But not having children can be easier said than done!

[Strider]

But not having children can be easier said than done!

And would make for quite a sad life, indeed.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Congrats Rachel, that's really great!!


Take it easy on woolyme, he is in NSW so can understand the concern at overpopulation.

[puredingo]

The vain of this thread is so whitebread it really does make me wonder. I agree with Wollemi to a certain extent as he has a point about the involvement of the Grandparent.

I'll take it nobody here grew up in a low income, working class area with a substantial amount of the population in "affordable housing"? Come for a walk with me through my local pub and I'll show you anybody, ANYBODY can be a Grandparent, it really takes no special ability at all. Here we will see tables of 4th generation houseo's whiling the days away and them nor their offspring will be contributing 1 cent to your retirment dollar in fact it's your money at present that's allowing this leisurly existance.

But more importantly I do congratulate you for the happiness you take from nursing your 1st granchild, that's a dfferent thing all together.

[Moondog55]

Actually Dingo old mate I grew up in a low income area in a huge family in a housing commission "affordable housing" area and I take personal offense at your proposition that residents of such areas are deadbeats and dole bludgers.
7 kids in a 2 bedroom house is it any wonder I left school at 15 and went to work as soon as I could, but in the 60s that was actually an intelligent choice as work was there, reasonably well paid and there was NO free university education and no interest free student loans. You worked or you starved basically.
Being a good grandparent means sacrificing some [ or indeed on my income a large portion] of your future personal security to safeguard the third generation. You think being a grandparent is easy you should try it sometime, like getting old; it isn't for the fainthearted, the timid or the weak of spirit

[puredingo]

Well, MD55 old bean I'll see you with that upbringing and raise you that I left in exactly the same circumstances but in the 80's in the height of a recession when there was about 800 applicants for every apprenticeship offered. I was lucky to snag one through sporting contacts and earned a whopping $150 a week in which $50 of that went to the oldies for board! Didn't leave a lot for train fares, petrol, food and beer I can tell you.

My cousin was a grandparent at 34...Was he a good parent? not really, if so he would of educated his own kids and then been able to enjoy the rest of his youth instead of being lumbered with baby sitting duties the rest of his life.

And if my social commentary offends you on the success of the affordable housing scheme I invite you come for a stroll around the suburbs here for a day...If your minds not changed in 2 hours you get your tax money back...

[Wollemi]

Take it easy on woolyme, he is in NSW so can understand the concern at overpopulation.

Says the selectively dyslexic one, from the state that has a multi-day walking track that one must do in a strict direction. And ever wondered why fees were introduced for that? Or why they have gone up significantly in recent years?
NSW doesn't have a 2-month Parks Entry Pass, required if you hitch, walk, cycle or bus to any Tasmanian NP. Want to visit Lane Cove, Kuring-gai Chase or the Greater Blue Mountains National Parks. Just hop off the train at Wondabyne or Wentworth Falls and start walking without reaching for your wallet.

Wow, each to his own but some of the previous reactions to someone sharing a common but nevertheless happy life event border on forum troll behaviour.

Pressures on our planet are too great to be frivolous about any aspect pressuring the world. Is this statement (if I may so quote myself), forum trolling? - I do not deny the right of the child and those who are already here. I query the motives of commonsense being left behind and replaced with innate desires without regard to the current and future state of the planet.


Populating the planet, in any nation of our world, (or any State of our nation...) may have, and/or has lead directly to these types of news stories;

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/vacant-bedroo ... 2ow65.html Pertains to public housing in NSW.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/clima ... 2ovsl.html Pertains to polluting the planet.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/wendys-13ho ... 2ow9x.html Pertains to denial of abortion.

[simonm]

It might be better if all this other stuff is discussed in a separate thread to Taurë-rana's happy news about the birth of her grandchild .

[andrewbish]

It might be better if all this other stuff is discussed in a separate thread to Taurë-rana's happy news about the birth of her grandchild .

Agreed

[puredingo]

I think the subject of the grandchild was left behind long ago.

Nothing to do with "trolling', really. Just a couple of differing opinions expressing their right to do so. I could see no malice intended to the op or comments directed to incite?

Just my opinion only.

[eggs]

It really is the wrong thread for it, but we do need to think of the poor
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/06/25/how-environmental-organizations-are-destroying-the-environment/#more-88764

[Nuts]

Topic split from here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13829, did some quick post moves but not edits- some may like to go back and simply congratulate (or abstain). Anyone aggrieved? Missed some?? let me know..

[Strider]

there was NO free university education and no interest free student loans. You worked or you starved basically.

And there still isn't...what's the difference?

[Moondog55]

Student loans are interest free at the moment; it's called HECS which is a lot fairer system the the on my stepdaughter got caught with in the USA. For a long long time university education was almost totally free of cost to the student as was my apprenticeship and TAFE course.

But we are missing the point there I think.
While I did appreciate the tax breaks we got for the kids when they were young on the long term view I still do not understand why we are paying people to have children. I would never try to stop people obeying the biological urge to reproduce but such actions shouldn't be subsidised by the government when there are already far too many people in the world to maintain a high standard of living for every-one.

The earth could carry a trillion people if we accepted a Bangla standard of living [ I don't want to do that] so the only solution in the short term is to reduce or slow down global population growth.
While much has been talked about, Australia still doesn't have a population policy and such policies will always be subject to change with each change in government or government leadership

[Clusterpod]

While our societies are based upon the farcical economic fantasy of unlimited growth, we are doomed to overpopulation no matter how many children we decide not to have.

If there isn't population growth through reproduction, there will be population growth through immigration.

[neilmny]

Thank you everyone for sharing my joy, I had no idea it was so wonderful to be a grandparent and I'm very lucky to live so close.

Wollemi, what can I say? I feel very sad for you that you have never and presumably will never feel the joy that goes with parenthood/grandparenthood.

This child wasn't planned, her parents are only kids themselves but chose to accept responsibility for her and didn't get rid of her.

Yes, the world is overcrowded and I certainly took issue with 'one for mum and dad and one for the country' recently, but replacing oneself is not irresponsible, and there are quite a lot of people who choose not to have children because it would impact on their lifestyle - a lifestyle that often uses far more of the world's resources than having a family does, because they can afford to consume far more.

Along with an overpopulated world, the huge issue that is stuffing the earth is what we expect as our lifestyle. If all of us accepted lower living conditions, less 'stuff', smaller houses, etc, there wouldn't be such a problem with the world.

It says it all.

[Hallu]

You can always adopt : you don't raise the population by doing this lol.

[wayno]

i saw a talk, an economist showed that every year, more rock and earth needs to be moved to extract the same amount of minerals out of the ground as the previous year, more minerals are being extracted each year... the price of pretty much all minerals steadily increases, the future is going to be continually more expensive as rare earth minerals come in shorter supply....
so..... how financially stretched are you or are you likely to be with kids in the future? how much inflation can you withstand and maintain a lifestyle you consider acceptable?
if you think its financially hard now to provide for a family, i don't think you have seen anything yet..... are you prepared for that?
the revolutions that have gone on in north africa and the middle east often started as protests against high food prices because people couldnt feed their families... because of pressure on food because the west is now growing and buying crops for fuel, weather patterns are worsening and the population keeps going up....
do you really believe you can maintain your standard of living or improve it over the coming decades? australians can go and see all the ships carrying massive quantities of ore and coal off to china..... coal that gets burnt and ends up landing in the ocean increasing mercury levels and carbon dioxide levels....
what standard of living are youg kids today going to have when they grow up? do you really know? what standard of living will your grand kids have when they grow up?
the current levels of population on the planet are a massive experiment on pushing the earth to see what happens when its environment is messed around with continually on a massive scale....
since the nineteen eighties , the average wind speed and waave height in the seas has increased half to a full percentage point a year.... still want to live beside the sea?

[TerraMer]

You can always adopt : you don't raise the population by doing this lol.

+1
...and if you don't want to raise a little human for whatever reason, adopt a rescue animal. If you're lucky (?) you might get one that looks like you lol

[Swifty]

You can always adopt : you don't raise the population by doing this lol.

Well, somebody did, just not you!

[doogs]

It's not overpopulation that is the problem, it's over affluence. An affluent person has about four times the impact on the environment than the average person in the developing world.

[maddog]

Affluence is not the problem, poverty and a lack of education is. A developing nation may have a fertility rate 8 times higher than a developed nation, causing overpopulation and environmental degradation. Developed nations generally have stronger environmental protections (laws), as demanded by their citizens. The basic pattern, regardless of race is:

wealth and education increases -> fertility falls -> environmental protection is prioritised.

Fertility.png (49.61 KiB) Viewed 54745 times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate

[wayno]

gareth morgan is a nz multi millionaire and philanthropist.
he rides around the world on his motorbike visiting UN projects he funds..
he's been through a lot of third world counties, right through africa.
he makes the comment about not giving money to voluntary agencies.
he donates money to build water wells.
he says a lot of the charities esp christian ones provide food to te poor and he says , you feed them and they just breed more, they'll have ten or twenty kids, they dont know any better, you're just fueling population explosion and creating a bigger problem,
he'll help provide water and the rest is up to them to grow enough food to feed themselves. but if they won't practice birth control then down the track you're going to get more problems of the land becoming over farmed and too many people to be supported and if the weather gets fickle than you have no room to move on growing enough to feed the massively expanding population
1900 there were an estimated billion people on the planet. aparently there are more people alive on the planet today than all the people who have lived and died in history....
technology has been a double edged sword, as populations increased technology came up with ways of increasing food productivity to feed the masses and now look where the planet is at....
every year the amount of arable land available is diminishing through increase in arid areas and human expansion, and soils being exhausted or litterly blown away from human over development and the increasing fluctuating climate....
india is heading for real trouble. underground water tables are running out. wells that large nos of people relying on drying out, deserts expanding, population continuing to expand.
canterbury and north otago are running out of enough ground water for irrigation, soils are blowing away.. agricultural chemicals are starting to show up in town underground water supplies.... aparently it will be a matter of time before they show up in christchurch's water suppply