Mapping out handy locations on bushwalk.com

[Zone-5]

Geocache section?



Hi, I'm up early again.. but I noticed that you guys don't have a geocache section. Each time I go for a hike I usually seek out a geocache or two. Or mark a spot of special interest to share with friends..

Was wondering why not as I'm sure many others here would like to share some co-ords of beautiful spots they have found.

[Zone-5]

Or maybe not geocaches as such but GPS Long/Lat coords so people like me who are interested could check spots out travelled to on Ozieplorer and Google maps.. a suggestion

[michael_p]

The http://geocaching.com.au website has an excellent forum.

[jackhinde]

geocaching: using technology to litter the bush

[Zone-5]

geocaching: using technology to litter the bush

Don't you mean geotrashing?

What happen to the "cache in trash out" philosophy?

[wildwalks]

Hi zone-5
Interesting idea. Happy to bounce it around and see if there is a demand for it. As Michael pointed out there is already a good forum for geocaching so I am not sure what having space here would add??
Thanks
Matt

[Zone-5]

Hi Matt, I was not suggesting duplicating the Geocache site but it would be cool to have some where members could mention an interesting spot that they logged by GPS. Not a cache (like a tin) but an interesting bushwalking location that can be accessed directly as a waypoint.

I generally find geocache gaming rather pointless "find a tin in the middle of nowhere" I mean who cares, but if some one was to say "magnificent view at LAT/LONG" or "secret water hole at LAT/LONG" I would really value that info.

If I see something of value to me I GPS log it as an 'averaged waypoint' for future reference. Just wondering if others do it also and if they are willing to share their finds..

[neilmny]

...........I generally find geocache gaming rather pointless "find a tin in the middle of nowhere" I mean who cares............
If I see something of value to me I GPS log it as an 'averaged waypoint' for future reference. Just wondering if others do it also and if they are willing to share their finds..

Geocaching is a bit weird, I had a go at it just for the GPS usage exercise....but after a few finds I realised that the actual find didn't have
anything to do with GPS skills just that I was observant enough to find the "tin". Just getting to within a few metres of the cache was a find
really but not officially.

The idea of marking a few places that are not sensitive isn't a bad idea and maybe not obvious water sources that are realiable could be a good thing.
Other than that co ordinates could be given in posts on trips, hopefully UTM not Lat/Lon

[MickyB]

Geocaching is a bit weird

Totally agree. A geocacher has given me some co-ordinates of some some 'special areas'. Visited one of these areas last week. It was a beautiful place. Using the extra clues that he gave me I found the tin that was hidden but to be honest it bored me. Perhaps it was in such a nice area I prefered to look at the scenery than look for a tin.

The idea of marking a few places that are not sensitive isn't a bad idea and maybe not obvious water sources that are realiable could be a good thing.

+1

[Zone-5]

^^ Yeah totally agree with you both on that. I think I got the wrong title for this thread.. Perhaps it should have been:

'Share your interesting way-points' or 'Share your GPS logged interesting finds'.

So NO to the mindless geocache hunt, and YES to GPS traceable interesting finds.

[wildwalks]

Liking this idea. I am working on a new Q&A section for the website to release in the next few weeks.
I really like this idea. I have a mapping serve ring running for wildwalks that would actually handly a lot of the work so technically this could be achievable without a huge effort. Main issue will be interesting the login process, not a big issue.
Okay so let keep this conversation rolling. I am thinking we have categories, lat, long, and description. Ability to export. Maybe a photo??
What else??

Matt

[Zone-5]

May be include a reference link to the thread that talks about the hike that included that way-point and vice versa. Would keep it rather simple and allow users to refer directly to trip reports instead of duplicating posts.

I was thinking of just posting UTM coords for manual programming but if you want to do it in a paperless geocache format for direct upload to your GPS device that would be sort of cool...

I was eagerly reading the 'water at Freycinet' thread http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15912 and how there was no reliable water to be found and yet some said they had found something. I was hoping they would have posted a way-point so that others could zero into it immediately instead of the usual trial and error search. Reliable water, bush tucker and good custom camp sites would be important as well as discussions about the good and the bad of them..

I'm just babbling on now as it's 3 am and still 31 C outside!

[neilmny]

....... I am thinking we have categories, lat, long, and description. Ability to export. Maybe a photo??
What else??

Matt

Some notes or is that under description?
Should it only be viewable by logged in forum members?
Ability to add notes to update current conditions.

[michael_p]

Liking this idea. I am working on a new Q&A section for the website to release in the next few weeks.
I really like this idea. I have a mapping serve ring running for wildwalks that would actually handly a lot of the work so technically this could be achievable without a huge effort. Main issue will be interesting the login process, not a big issue.
Okay so let keep this conversation rolling. I am thinking we have categories, lat, long, and description. Ability to export. Maybe a photo??
What else??

Matt

Can I suggest moving this discussion to a new thread as the current thread title bears no relevance to the topic.

Cheers,
Michael.

[wildwalks]

Can I suggest moving this discussion to a new thread as the current thread title bears no relevance to the topic.

Good suggestions -- I changed the threads topic name to be closer to what was the intention (I think).
Matt

[wildwalks]

What the actual projection of the co-ords are is not a big issue (UTM etc). We can store in a specific projection then convert to what ever people want.
Like the idea of the links back to the forum.
sounding good.

Matt

[tastrax]

Good idea but please lets make sure that what ever is presented is a FULL grid reference not just a bunch of numbers

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14004

[neilmny]

Good idea but please lets make sure that what ever is presented is a FULL grid reference not just a bunch of numbers

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14004

I agree tastrax this is essential.

[Nuts]

wow, takes all sorts I guess. Nothing popular or likely to become so, not through or too anywhere potentially sensitive now or in the future. You guys get this right? .. No point just watercourses or fine views without someone mapping the way? Meh, what harm can adding to such a library do? Whatever enhances ones wilderness experience?

(another token voice of concern, please, carry on)

[neilmny]

wow, takes all sorts I guess. Nothing popular or likely to become so, not through or too anywhere potentially sensitive now or in the future. You guys get this right? .. No point just watercourses or fine views without someone mapping the way? Meh, what harm can adding to such a library do? Whatever enhances ones wilderness experience?

(another token voice of concern, please, carry on)

Sorry it must be the heat but I have no idea what you are on about Nuts. Please explain

[Nuts]

I just don't get anything good for the bush from these sort of things?? To me that is all that matters.
Secondary to this, I really wonder what such 'helpfulness' or 'games' do for the 'wilderness experience', either intrinsically or for a persons skill-set.

I don't need convincing otherwise, the increasing cataloging of wilderness through seemingly harmless additions to the collective 'library' sucks! This will be but one example.

Not naive enough to think that anything said will stop such change. I do feel it is forced on us by a group of middle age blokes playing land manager. I doubt it's ever done other than by default, I never see much thought put into the consequences?

Sorry, a full explanation would take reams. Iv'e written papers on this and it can take a thesis to cover all possible mis-understanding or dismiss chance for those that would be disingenuous. I don't have the time just now or energy. It's a possible forum addition and in the forum section.. so , as a member, i'll leave it as I said:

a token voice of concern.

[Zone-5]

I do feel it is forced on us by a group of middle age blokes playing land manager. I doubt it's ever done other than by default, I never see much thought put into the consequences?

I sort of know what you mean and I too don't want this to become some sort of overarching game/taxonomy exercise. My reasons for suggesting this (that as a middle aged, not overly experienced bush walker but enthusiastic to say the least) would to allow members should they so desire to highlight any possible locations they thought were worth sharing. Be that a find that may be easily overlooked that could help in a survival situation (eg water/unusual remote phone reception points), or perhaps an off route/piste location that was of note and worth sharing to the less adventurous.

The new forum idea was to give a 'Twitter' like blog location for these valued finds allowing members to be brief while allowing those entries to be linked to other parts of the site where greater details and stories are blogged. The mention of GPS location or way-point was suggested as a way that locations can then be easily passed on to others without any interpretative confusion and the need for any great explanations, descriptions or dialogue.

I would assume that every bush walker these days carries a GPS as a minimum and is experienced enough to know how to use it with regard to way-points and location logging. I know myself that for my future reference I catalogue good camp sites, fishing and water locations. Now and then if I stumble over a great view or anything of note, even a danger point I will log it. No point in making the same mistake twice! But am I the only GPS user that does this.. not likely.

I have read a lot of the hike descriptions here and wondered at the many places described in those stories but would I experience the same wonders if I were to emulate those hikes? Probably not as I would no doubt miss those things more obvious to the experienced eye. At least with this everyone can have an opportunity to share in the rewards of the more experienced and make for better and more informed walks in the future.

This forum states in it's title "Information for bushwalkers from bushwalkers". I can seeing nothing proposed here that strays from that ideal.

Anyway, participation is not compulsory..

[Nuts]

Well, the bush.. our bush, it doesn't get to have much of a say in participation.

Zone-5 welcome to the forum. You seem to have the site owner and a parky on side so who am I to cause ripples.

They rarely get a mention let alone moderation but at least please familiarise yourself with and remind others of the site rules if you host such topics:

"Avoid posting detailed information on accessing sensitive areas without recognised tracks to public topics, but rather use private messages, email, or other non-public means to communicate such information instead. Feel free to ask questions about such areas publicly, so long as the post includes a reminder of this rule to get answers privately only"

I fail to see how all but a few long term walkers and some outstanding parkies can judge what is or isn't or may become sensitive. Others clearly either don't agree or are ignorant to the collective impact. It takes very few people to start causing damage, well documented but even I could point out the effect (just) this website has had locally over a minute space of time.

As for safety, ease, interest, (navigational) experience, yada.. all secondary.

[wildwalks]

so who am I to cause ripples.

Happy to have ripples - here to discuss both positive and negatives

"Avoid posting detailed information on accessing sensitive areas without recognised tracks to public topics, but rather use private messages, email, or other non-public means to communicate such information instead. Feel free to ask questions about such areas publicly, so long as the post includes a reminder of this rule to get answers privately only"

I thought this is what we are talking about. Things we stumble upon such as water points, etc that we can share with others. I get the issue Nuts is worried about and see it as an issue we need to be mindful of if we go ahead with this project.

I fail to see how all but a few long term walkers and some outstanding parkies can judge what is or isn't or may become sensitive. Others clearly either don't agree or are ignorant to the collective impact. It takes very few people to start causing damage, well documented but even I could point out the effect (just) this website has had locally over a minute space of time.

Interesting points. This whole debate started when maps where first created. What information is okay and not okay to have public. Once the info is out it is not really possible to wind it back. I tend to think we are in a new era where this information is getting out and we need to shift focus from protecting by 'hiding' (not sharing) to protecting through LNT education and park management strategies. It is a complex issue and worth discussing - hey there might be a solution?

Matt

[tastrax]

It is a complex issue and worth discussing - hey there might be a solution?

Matt

Sure is complex and its been discussed on this forum many times. Its actually good to see more people actually respecting "no or minimal publicity" policies that have been in place for years by many environmental agencies. The last bastion is the internet and unfortunately for every person who wants to respect those policies there is also another who wishes to promote sensitive places. Its a battle slowly being lost by agencies.

As for promoting lookouts, waterpoints, RECOGNISED campsites on "mapped" tracks - I have no issue with that. For sensitive areas I will still be doing my bit to stop promotion by all means possible including education and discussion.

To date, this forum has been pretty good at drawing the sensible line in the sand.

[Nuts]

It is a complex issue and worth discussing - hey there might be a solution?

Matt

Well.. there is! you just don't do things like this

You, tastrax, Zone-5.. even me (though my captioned photos would pretty boring since wage days )

Think of un-tracked, uncaptioned wild places as a gift for those to come?

I agree, generally pretty good on here... but then that in itself is a judgement call- if something (anything.. a view, lookout etc) is worth captioning it will obviously be something 'new'. One step closer to a fragile area. A new piece of info that Will have consequences. They may be very minimal or they may occur a long time in to the future.

Personally I think the concept of a documented wilderness is nuttier than squirrel droppings. What discussion is to be had? I'm sure I can only observe, there really don't seem too many valid excuses that hold water under close scrutiny when any given new place is named.

[wildwalks]

Personally I think the concept of a documented wilderness is nuttier than squirrel droppings. What discussion is to be had?

hehe -- love the saying

I understand the issue of documenting sensitive areas and the damage it can cause (to both the remote areas and to people).
But creating a map to highlight interesting areas in itself will not cause these issues -- it is more about where the points are drawn located.

Obviously some level of documentation is seen as okay and well excepted. If you use a topographic map for a walk then you are using a document that details wilderness areas.

Lets take the Overland Track - and side trips like Mt Ossa. These are signposted and well used but still many people would benefit from know where certain points are along the way, it can help them decide which spots to visit when they are short on time or depending on weather.

One possible solution is that we create 'zones' on the map that will mean points will not be displayed if they fall in (or out) of particular zone. This would allow use to define sensitive areas (maybe with advice from parks) and limit what is displayed.
I guess this is what I am thinking about as a possible solution and new ways of thinking about this issue. It is work and a lot of debate to define what is sensitive.
If we stand back and say don't build anything then people will just start putting these things in places (eg OSM) where there is no thought to this issue -- if we can find a 'best practice' way of doing it, then we can reduce the chance of stuff been documented in other places.

Matt

[doogs]

I'm with Nuts on this one. National Parks are set up for the wilderness not our from our pleasure, although we should find satisfaction in the knowledge of their existence. We have built various tracks through the National Parks it may be added; without the permission of the wilderness. We should only be promoting the sites and sights along these man made infrastructures for the enjoyment of others to experience as anything 'off track' should remain 'off limits' for promotion. I don't have a problem with people sharing photos which highlight the wilderness values of an area but locations given should remain 'area specific' rather than an exact location. I sometimes think this site has overstepped the mark when it comes to information on the access to remote areas, but I am probably a major beneficiary of this so can't complain too much and if I didn't find the information here then I probably could have found it elsewhere on the inter-webs. Anyway starting to ramble; my point is that the National Parks are not for us we should feel privileged to access them and with that we should respect them, which includes the 'leave no trace' ethos.

[wildwalks]

Hi Doogs
100% agree that NP are primarily set aside for nature sake not for our recreation. Your message seems to suggest that we should shut down bushwalk.com altogether more then suggest we should not build this map?. I don't think this map is proposing anything different to what we do now other then to effectively stick a post on a map rather then in pure text form. Agree that some areas should be 'out of bounds'. If the issues can't be fixed then we don't build it. But if we don't build it, then someone else is likely to and then we have no say/control over what is put up.
Matt

[baeurabasher]

But if we don't build it, then someone else is likely to and then we have no say/control over what is put up.
Matt

Leave Tasmania off it completely. Or at LEAST leave the NP's out of it. Then there's not alot left, so maybe yeh, leave Tasmania off it completely.