Western Mountaineering GWS vs MF

[hobbitle]

Hi guys

I'm pretty keen on getting a WM Apache. I'm trying to decide between the GWS and MF fabrics, though. My local store where I get 20% discount only has the GWS version but I've emailed to ask if they would get the MF in on request.... anyway.

My main uses:
- year-round tent camping in Victoria most weekends
- hiking in Tassie, all seasons
- small amounts of alpine hiking and mountaineering so yes, snow camping is on the cards.
- all on an Exped UL7 (in snow, would also have a CCF).

I would not intentionally head out in very very wet weather (or at least I would not do this and then sleep without a shelter unless totally unavoidable). I also would not sleep on snow without a mat, but may bivy on snow without a tent/shelter on occasion.

I'm a pretty cold sleeper (but not EXTREMELY so). If the bag is overkill for summer I'd be keen to try just using my S2S Extreme Reactor liner as my sleeping "bag".

These things considered, it seems like the GWS is overkill. Most reviews I've read seem to be along the lines of "unless you're going to get soaked regularly, you probably don't need the GWS". The MF version is about 150g lighter and packs down smaller, both pretty big pluses for me.

Western Mountaineering bag owners - what are your thoughts???

[Lizzy]

I have the Apache in MF- thumbs up from me
After being chilly in Tassie in a montbell spiral 30 degree I decided to upgrade. It's a good temperature for me as I sleep cold. I'd still use it in summer in Tassie. I take a an older booster bag for summer up here or further north as yes it would be a bit overkill.
I've used it in huts and tents. No problem so far with getting wet.
Any specific questions I can try and help.

[hobbitle]

I have the Apache in MF- thumbs up from me
After being chilly in Tassie in a montbell spiral 30 degree I decided to upgrade. It's a good temperature for me as I sleep cold. I'd still use it in summer in Tassie. I take a an older booster bag for summer up here or further north as yes it would be a bit overkill.
I've used it in huts and tents. No problem so far with getting wet.
Any specific questions I can try and help.

Hey Lizzy! Thats good to know you'd still use it in summer in Tassie. The places I go in summer in Victoria tend to be cold anyway so it would be similar up here, unless it's a heat wave week.
How wet do you think it could get if it was to get, for example, condensation dripping on it? Do you sweat a lot in it? What sort of clothing are you wearing inside it in a Tassie winter, for example?

[Moondog55]

WM make good bags
Personally I think -10C is borderline for full on Australian alpine conditions but should cope with 90% of the temperatures
It all comes down to weight, bulk, comfort, fit and cost after all.
Try the bag before you buy if you can and take what you would be using and wearing inside the bag with you

[markg]

I have used my WM Antelope GWS in -7 and was very very warm. Only had some old el cheapo thermals on that are a little on the thin side now. It was quiet windy a couple of nights but I felt it was a really comfy bag. I match it with an Xped 9 long d/mat. Had a bit of condensation in mornings but bag stayed dry. I hate the baffle velcro system around the head though.

[Lizzy]

I normally wear thermals and socks to bed and use a thermarest neoair. Often a beanie too- I' actually think the hood could be better. Have had some condensation but haven't had any problems with the bag getting soaked. Haven't had it under those conditions repeatedly tho.
The bag can open up quite well if you are too hot. I really need this sort of warmth for winter otherwise I freeze.

[gbedford]

I have used a WM ultralite for six year in Australia, mainly for winter ski touring. It is only rated to -7C but I have never been cold. The maximum amount of clothing I have worn is a set of thermals with socks. The temperatures I have camped in have been below -5 according to my basic thermometer. You would be very warm in a Apache. Everybody has variation in their sleep temperature but I don't think you need a rating less than -10 in Australia. Lower temperatures have been recorded in the Snowy Mountains but it is a rare event.
I have used a WM Antelope MF camping in Canadian winters. The MIcrofibre is a beautiful fabric.
Gordon

[hobbitle]

I have used a WM ultralite for six year in Australia, mainly for winter ski touring. It is only rated to -7C but I have never been cold. The maximum amount of clothing I have worn is a set of thermals with socks. The temperatures I have camped in have been below -5 according to my basic thermometer. You would be very warm in a Apache. Everybody has variation in their sleep temperature but I don't think you need a rating less than -10 in Australia. Lower temperatures have been recorded in the Snowy Mountains but it is a rare event.
I have used a WM Antelope MF camping in Canadian winters. The MIcrofibre is a beautiful fabric.
Gordon

Hi Gordon
Thanks for your feedback.
What if I wanted to take an Apache to high altitudes e.g. Colorado mountains, High Sierras, swiss alps (all in spring/summer). I have no exposure to those kind of temperatures at that time of year... do you think it might cut it? Keeping in mind that I could put a down jacket on as well inside.
I read a review where a woman in an Apache GWS started to feel a "slight chill" at -15 degrees C...

[markg]

If I was going to somewhere real cold I would look for something like FF Eider or similar. Least you have some leeway in the lower temp rates.

[stry]

gbedford sleeps warmer than I do, which only shows what is said repeatedly - we are all different

As I have said elsewhere, I love my Apache MF. I also had the choice of fabrics, and went MF for the reduced weight and bulk. I also have unproven reservations about WPB on bags.

Warmth wise, the Apache is a lot of bang for your buck but I, personally, would be needing a fair bit of extra clothing at -10. If I personally, was expecting -10, I would take a warmer bag. I like to have a bag which is warm enough for expected conditions wearing only light clothes, then the heavier clothes are my backup if things turn bad.

If -10 was only a maybe, I would wing it with the Apache and save some weight and bulk. I also have an Ultralite and FOR ME, wearing only a light thermal top, socks and jocks, it is a 0 (maybe -1 or -2) bag.

I have no experience of the Gore in bags, but did have a Driloft (slightly heavier fabric than Windstopper) shelled jacket and the decreased breathability was noticeable.

WM know what they are doing, and have chosen to stick with GWS and not switch to the newer Pertex WPB fabrics, so who knows ? I do tire of my paranoia about condensation on the outside of my bag

[markg]

I nearly had a heart attack when looking up the prices of Sleeping bags. I paid $750 each for my WM bags, for me and one for my daughter. 18mths ago. Same bags are now $1100 . Yikes.

[gbedford]

Hobbitle,

1. If you can afford a WM bag then buy one as it is generally accepted that they make some of the best in the world.
2. I have experience using three different WM bags and their temperature ratings run true for me. As was stated I was a hot sleeper but I have noticed as I have got very close to 60 years of age I feel the cold more. Nevertheless I recently slept a night in sub-zero temperature (snow storm and water in the billy froze) using my Summerlite bag. I had to add a fleece jacket to my usual thermals. The rating on a Summerlite is 0C.
3. You have to know your own temperature rating and how this relates to different bags, their cut, the amount of fill, loft value of the down and the weight of the fabrics. WM bags use high quality down, very light material and generally a narrow cut. Therefore greater warmth for weight.
4 I have climbed in the Alps and the High Sierra during summer and never encountered temperatures of -12C and that includes a few high bivies. However that doesn't mean that doesn't happen. If you are climbing in the Alps most routes require one or no bivouacs and that might include sleeping outside a hut. Of course if you are pushing your grades then you might have to bivi. Walking in the Alps never gets that high for temperatures below -12C. Walking in the Sierras can get you high but the Apache would be fine
5. I think the Apache in MF would have plenty of margin of warmth for thos areas in late spring and summer. However do a search on what people who walk and climb in those areas use during spring and summer.
6. I have no experience of the GWS fabric but agree with Stry about WPB fabrics for sleeping bags and really a bit of condensation on the outer part of the bag is just not a big deal.
Hope this is of some help.