Clothing

[tas-man]

Non waterproof footware such as running shoes will expel water with each step. I have done long, wet winter runs in mesh running shoes and after a creek crossing or stepping in a knee deep puddle my shoes fill with water but are empty again after a couple of hundred meters. Wearing thin socks helps with this. Water is not the real problem. Clean water is fine but muddy or silty water tends to leave the mud and silt in your shoes while the water is expelled so you end up with reasonably dry feet but a sock full of irritating dirt.

This is the conundrum - when we go walking in Tassie for extended periods ,we are going to walk through creeks, mud, bog, rain etc that makes a joke of trying to keep water out of our footware. We can try to keep or feet/socks dry inside gortex boots and take them off for river crossings etc, or "go with the flow" with non waterproof and no doubt lighter footwear, which will shed water quickly and keep our feet COMFORTABLE for the journey. Perhaps forum members can give feedback about the overall "comfort" rating of their footware/sock combination in Tassie conditions ,rather than focusing on the "boot V runner" debate. I am starting to think that its more important to use a boot/shoe/sock system that will look after you feet in the terrain and weather/track conditions you are going to face on any trip, and perhaps have a selection of footware to choose from according to your walking requirements (track/terrain/season/weather/pack weight/etc).

[Ent]

With boots it is more the harden sole that I appreciate for the boney tracks as the flex on the sole and rocks coming through brusing the bottom of my feet is a problem even with boots with a lighter sole. Actually only rarely have I had wet feet and they quickly even in boots dry so the socks are dry enough not to be a nucsiance. With gaiters and high cut boots I can splash through most things and only get wet if stuck in the middle.

Well the virdict is in on the scales from the light weight rain gear. Traditional Gore-tex handle any conditions is around 1.2 kilograms while the Montane jacket and MD Photon trousers are under 0.5 kilograms so for track walking a significant saving in weight and bulk. As mentioned it has not rained so no comment on performance as yet nor on roubustness.

Cheers Brett

[Tony]

Hi Brett,

7. Goretex tough outer shell is something in jacket and pants I trust but yes I have ventured into the dark side with a Montane jacket and buying MD Repel photon pants. Time will tell if that is the right way to go. As usual with new rain gear, it has not rained so no on track reports yet.

Well the virdict is in on the scales from the light weight rain gear. Traditional Gore-tex handle any conditions is around 1.2 kilograms while the Montane jacket and MD Photon trousers are under 0.5 kilograms so for track walking a significant saving in weight and bulk. As mentioned it has not rained so no comment on performance as yet nor on roubustness.

Cheers Brett

Welcome to the dark side, caution once you are there, there is no going back.

Tony

[Ent]

Hi Tony

Not that hung up on weight and actually had the Montane jacket for over three years for use with moutain bike rides in the wildeness but never really got that much done and when out no rain so never used it in anger. If the darkside results in a ripped or sweaty trip then I will remove my mask and go back to what has proven to work extremely well for me. The setup will hopefully provide the right tradeoff given current technology but MD in Launceston suggest that the Photon pants will not breath as well as the Gore-tex ones nor nearly be as robust but on special at $99 it is worth the punt. The Montane jacket from memory is extremely expensive so will not be so forgiving if that does not last.

For me the whole gear selection is based on a large number of trade-offs rather than one driving aspect with maybe the emphasis on durable and confortable gear. Cothing has been a work in progress for some time as with most people take too much but then again I have never been cold or uncomfortable but looking for something that can work well for a day walk or a peak bagging side trip.

Cheers

[Nuts]

Ive been looking at the Montane event jackets. Would rather try a macpac but they are expensive (and Montane appear to make very good quality gear).
Brett, not sure (by the way you explain) but do you realise that being goretex (or not) has Nothing to do with the 'strength' of the garment? The way I understand it your comparing apples and oranges..
(Just wondering, its been explained before, but have you grasped this?) ; )

[Jellybean]

Ive been looking at the Montane event jackets. Would rather try a macpac but they are expensive (and Montane appear to make very good quality gear).

Ditto Nuts.

I have a Montane Quattro DT jacket and Montane Atomic DT pants (combined total approx. 500g) which are great quality, very breathable and waterproof in light to moderate continuous rain. (On a recent short walk in northern VIC in heavy, continuous rain I had very mild dampness around the shoulders after 3 hours, but was dry on the bottom). I'm keen, however to add an Event jacket and pants to my arsenal for walks where heavy, continuous rain over an extended period is likely. My current combo of a Macpac Prophet XCR goretex jacket and One Planet goretex pants (from the days when One Planet made goretex rain wear - awesome piece of gear) are bombproof and completely waterproof but also heavy (combined total almost 1.5kg).

I've been looking at both the womens Montane Event Venture jacket and pants (combined total 830g; not superlight but almost half the weight of my current gear and should provide the protection I want in heavy, continuous rain)(available from Ultralight Outdoor Gear UK for around $375AUD - jacket and pants - including shipping) and the Macpac Event jacket and pants which are expensive (jacket and pants = $825) and, it seems, impossible to get weight information for (I have enquired on-line four times now with no result; the only information re weight on the website "jacket doesn't weigh very much" is not helpful). I'm going to go with the Montane Event gear through UOG (UOG seem to offer the best prices for Montane - they remove the VAT before checkout, have an extremely user friendly and informative website and have awesome customer service - I don't think the owner (?) Mark Richardson, ever sleeps!)

Cheers,

JB

[Nuts]

agarophillaoutdoors sell on ebay, they still seem slightly cheaper for one off buy's. It is a real shame that the locals cant be more competitive, i guess they are only small fish... Then again, none of the O/S jackets are very long (if thats your preference there are few choices)

[Jellybean]

agarophillaoutdoors sell on ebay, they still seem slightly cheaper for one off buy's. It is a real shame that the locals cant be more competitive, i guess they are only small fish... Then again, none of the O/S jackets are very long (if thats your preference there are few choices)

Probably depends on what you're after - they're $50AUD more expensive for what I'm looking for (and that's with the compromise of getting men's vs women's cut rain pants. Grrr).

Agreed re local prices - I bought a Sea to Summit ultrasil pack liner a little while back in the UK for half the price it would have cost in a store here. I was stunned that I could buy an Australian made product (I believe) for half price overseas!

[corvus]

agarophillaoutdoors sell on ebay, they still seem slightly cheaper for one off buy's. It is a real shame that the locals cant be more competitive, i guess they are only small fish... Then again, none of the O/S jackets are very long (if thats your preference there are few choices)

Probably depends on what you're after - they're $50AUD more expensive for what I'm looking for (and that's with the compromise of getting men's vs women's cut rain pants. Grrr).

Agreed re local prices - I bought a Sea to Summit ultrasil pack liner a little while back in the UK for half the price it would have cost in a store here. I was stunned that I could buy an Australian made product (I believe) for half price overseas!

Not made in Australia check the lable
corvus

[Jellybean]

Agreed re local prices - I bought a Sea to Summit ultrasil pack liner a little while back in the UK for half the price it would have cost in a store here. I was stunned that I could buy an Australian made product (I believe) for half price overseas!

Not made in Australia check the lable
corvus

Sorry. I should have said "a product produced by an Australian owned company..."

I'm still stunned. Is that purely the result of market forces? Doesn't give you much of an incentive to buy locally.

[photohiker]

I just found the Rocky Goretex oversocks at the following site for $60USD - http://www.team1newport.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ROC8011. They will ship to Sydney, minus the packaging, for $14USD. I might give them a try.

Hi JB, I finally caved in and ordered a pair from these vendors. Their online shop doesn't like foreign credit cards so I landed up doing the transaction by email and phoning in the credit card details. Will report when they have arrived.

Helpful bunch, and quick with their responses.

[Taurë-rana]

\

Welcome to the dark side, caution once you are there, there is no going back.

Tony

We all lived in our knee length goretex jackets on my last walk, wouldn't have wanted to be without them.

[Ent]

Ive been looking at the Montane event jackets. Would rather try a macpac but they are expensive (and Montane appear to make very good quality gear).
Brett, not sure (by the way you explain) but do you realise that being goretex (or not) has Nothing to do with the 'strength' of the garment? The way I understand it your comparing apples and oranges..
(Just wondering, its been explained before, but have you grasped this?) ; )

Surprising as it may seam Nuts I have grasped the concepts extremely well but never have fallen for a belief in witchcraft so beloved by some The primary material Gore-tex first used was a very heavy tough grade of Nylon and that I believe that in large part contributed to Tassie's love affair with the jacket along with it been long enough to cover shorts unlike current yuppie designs. The actual Gore-tex membrane is remarkably thin and hence light. Gore-tex make at least three levels of toughness in materials that protect the membrame. The Montane jacket I have relies on a DWR coating which harks back to an era of oilskins and does not use a membrame and gets its light weight from thinness. The question is it tough enough. Huge difference in the nice open tracks of Cradle to a bush bash cross country.

What some people fail to understand is Gore-tex spent a lot of time on garment design to ensure that a garment actually worked. This of course cost money but then again this has been explained before. On the shoulders of giants you can see for miles so it is easier to copy the design principle rather than understand importance that the learning processes generates. Rather interesting to see a number of breathable garments with ventilation zips. Me think something is not adding up.

Yet again the weather gods laugh at me so I no nearer to testing the new configuration as three days climbing Ossa and poking around Pelion resulted in dry weather and very mild conditions.

Cheers Brett

[Taurë-rana]

Yet again the weather gods laugh at me so I no nearer to testing the new configuration as three days climbing Ossa and poking around Pelion resulted in dry weather and very mild conditions.

Cheers Brett

You poor thing, how do you cope

[north-north-west]

Yet again the weather gods laugh at me so I no nearer to testing the new configuration as three days climbing Ossa and poking around Pelion resulted in dry weather and very mild conditions.

Go for a walk across Lake Pedder.

[Ent]

Yet again the weather gods laugh at me so I no nearer to testing the new configuration as three days climbing Ossa and poking around Pelion resulted in dry weather and very mild conditions.

Go for a walk across Lake Pedder.

I think you might be mistaking me for someone that was around about two thousand years ago

I would like to test out the configuration before the weather gets to the point that it would be foolhardy to trial new gear. For rugged tracks and really bad weather I will be back in Gore-tex in a flash unless the other stuff pans out.

Cheers Brett

[north-north-west]

No, that chappy would supposedly know whether or not the gear would work, so he wouldn't need to test it.

If you prefer me to rephrase - go for a walk under Lake Pedder.

[Ent]

No, that chappy would supposedly know whether or not the gear would work, so he wouldn't need to test it.

If you prefer me to rephrase - go for a walk under Lake Pedder.

Um? I am not sure if I will find the concrete boots as comfortable as my Scarpas

[Lizzy]

Hi- noticed you have a montane Quattro jacket JellyBean... wondering how they go for sizes. I am usually a 12/14 but want to be able to wear it over some layers- should I get a 16? Any advice on Montane sizing appreciated.
Cheers
Lizzy

[Jellybean]

Hi- noticed you have a montane Quattro jacket JellyBean... wondering how they go for sizes. I am usually a 12/14 but want to be able to wear it over some layers- should I get a 16? Any advice on Montane sizing appreciated.
Cheers
Lizzy

Hey Lizzy,

Montane make great quality gear but are definitely slim fitting. I'm also usually 12/14 and I bought size 16 and I find that a good fit, I can fit layers underneath (e.g., thermals, a synthetic insulating layer and my lightweight down jacket) and still have room to move without it being too bulky.

Cheers,

JB

[Lizzy]

Thanks heaps JB thats exactly what I wanted to know- I was definitely leaning toward a 16 thinking about layers and now I am sold. Thats the only problem with online shopping... a bit of guesswork!
Cheers
Lizzy

[Jellybean]

Thats the only problem with online shopping... a bit of guesswork!
Cheers
Lizzy

Hi Lizzy,

Yes! I noticed when I was looking for the jacket that a couple of websites (e.g., Backcountry) mentioned that Montane gear was either "slim fitting" or "buy a size up". So I erred on the side of caution and bought the larger size. I'm glad I did, it's a good fit and not bulky. 'Think I will apply the "buy one size up" principle to any future Montane purchases (I love their gear!).

Cheers,

JB

[Lizzy]

Thanks again JB,
I have a montane quattro size 16 coming my way! Looking forward to somethin a bit lighter than the old goretex.
Cheers
Lizzy

[Nuts]

Surprising as it may seam Nuts I have grasped the concepts extremely well but never have fallen for a belief in witchcraft so beloved by some The primary material Gore-tex first used was a very heavy tough grade of Nylon and that I believe that in large part contributed to Tassie's love affair with the jacket along with it been long enough to cover shorts unlike current yuppie designs. The actual Gore-tex membrane is remarkably thin and hence light. Gore-tex make at least three levels of toughness in materials that protect the membrame. The Montane jacket I have relies on a DWR coating which harks back to an era of oilskins and does not use a membrame and gets its light weight from thinness. The question is it tough enough. Huge difference in the nice open tracks of Cradle to a bush bash cross country.

What some people fail to understand is Gore-tex spent a lot of time on garment design to ensure that a garment actually worked. This of course cost money but then again this has been explained before. On the shoulders of giants you can see for miles so it is easier to copy the design principle rather than understand importance that the learning processes generates. Rather interesting to see a number of breathable garments with ventilation zips. Me think something is not adding up.


Cheers Brett

I'm not really sure what you are on about here?
Goretex dont make jackets do they?
You are comparing a goretex jacket to what?
You have a goretex jacket that doesnt have a DWR coating
I have a Montane jacket now that would be useful to compare to a similar goretex jacket but it's not thin and doesn't rely on a DWR coating to be waterproof, nor does it have 'pit-zips', did you buy the wrong jacket for your conclusions
With the shorter jackets, doesnt this just mean putting the pants on earlier? No biggie? (and can be a lot lighter (as yer carrying both anyhow?) (and generally cheaper to buy, lot bigger range?)
Also, who are you listening to for your inferences, whats that game where you give someone a 'loaded' piece of info and see how much it changes as its passed on?
End of the day, who cares, a plastic mac would do the job (with some limitations), guess its just that there seem to be some jumbled assumptions here that wont help anyone choosing clothing (jackets).

[Nuts]

Lizzy/JB I agree, Montane make great clothing, the features and quality have been faultless from what ive seen. Their sizes are small fitting. They are a bit lighter (think this is mainly coming from the 'athletic' cut as the materials can be as solid as alternatives). Their event range live up to the breathabilty claims from what ive seen....

[Ent]

Hi Nuts

Still have not mastered reading your writing style so not sure if I am misunderstanding rather than disagreeing with your point of view. My personal preference is shorts and long socks to the knee with solid boots. Do not like the restrictive nature of trousers for me plus struggle to get pairs long enough in the leg anyway. Also getting pants over size 49 boots is much harder than say size 42 footwear. With this setup in rain I would put on a long coat and not worry about pants. Sort of understand while my Scottish ancestors like kilts for trundling across the moors. In fact look at a lot of traditional garments for rough cold conditions allow the legs free movement. A long rain jacket means I can avoid carrying waterproof pants and is not carrying something a good way to get to a lighter weight?

As for the DWR coating I have a few garments, trousers, hat, etc that use that in the absence of a membrane and it works ok. As for it on Gore-tex coats and pants the label tells me DWR is there and how to look after it. My understanding it is required to stop an impermeable layer of water forming over the pores but heck I could be wrong.

For other comparison materials to Gore-tex lets try, Tritec, Hydronaut, Chameleon, Repel, Breathon, whatever Montane uses, etc. Yeap, I have more than a few jackets and pants. Still have not found any to be better than Gore-tex especially when covered by a robust outer coating generally used on the bush walking grades of Gore-tex. It is now good to start reading comments on the limitations of lighter materials that are coming out rather than all praise LW that tended to prevail for a long time. I was tending to think that there were no downsides to lighter weight

As for pit zips and other forms of ventilation in my opinion they are yet another item to go wrong and increase the cost but if people like them then I am glad garments are made with them for them. Have not noticed any zips in my skin but then again I have led a sheltered life

Have fun with the above.

Cheers Brett

[Lizzy]

Montane jackeet arrived today- luckily got the size 16 (Thanks JellyBean )- they definitely are cut fitting. Looks great and can't wait to try it out. I will be the glow yellow person on the track
Lizzy

[alliecat]

Opinions are fun, but facts are useful...

Gore make fabrics, not garments. They do approve the design of each garment that uses their fabrics, but that's pretty much a formality these days for the reputable manufacturers.

The Montane jackets do use a membrane. eVent, entrant DT, Hydronaut, NGX, etc. are all membrane fabrics. Most of the WPB fabrics come in a range of weights and strengths, eg. 2-layer and 3-layer eVent, Gore-Tex paclite (2-layer I think), etc. so saying something is "made from eVent" or made from "Gore-Tex" doesn't tell the whole story.

The DWR coating on Gore-Tex is, according to Gore, necessary to prevent "wetting-out" - where the surface of the fabric no longer sheds water and so the "breathability" is compromised. In that case you will get wet from the perspiration being unable to escape. In reality, the DWR is actually an essential part of the waterproofing. Without the DWR, Gore-Tex can leak - as can any of the WPB fabrics when the DWR wears off.

No waterproof breathable fabric currently available can pass enough water vapour to keep dry somebody who sweats heavily, or is in a high-humidity environment, or working really, really hard. Hence the need for ventilation options like pit-zips which can be found on garments made from all WPB fabrics, including all varieties of Gore-Tex. Most of the top-end jackets will include some form of extra ventilation as the reputable manufacturers are well aware of the limitations of the current WPB fabrics.

Hope that helps.

[Ent]

And correct facts backed by experience are even better Montane 200 or as I think it is now called Atomic jacket has according to the website the following fabric.

ENTRANT® DT STORM

* 79g/m² 2.5 layer 40 denier 100% Nylon with microporous Entrant DT coating and internal 'mesh' print
* Waterproof to a minimum of 10,000mm hydrostatic head with a minimum MVTR of 8,000g/m²/24hrs (JIS L 1099 A-1)

This is not an Event material and does not appear to be a membrane product either but can not be certain as that is all I could find on the site. And yes I have one, or more accurately the 200 As with the fabrics I already mentioned I found an Epic one as well in my collection. Generalisations are dangerous as most clothing manufacturers and marketers often use many fabrics. As for Gore-tex, of course they do not make garments but do as mentioned set strict standards. Still been my experience that Gore-tex is the best, at least for Tassie and me. Never got a chance to use the Event mittens either on the last trip. The Gore-tex Silk weight gloves do a remarkable job allowing my hands to breath but are not seam sealed so not waterproof and also wear quickly when used with walking poles.

Anyway yet to test the jacket in anger as it has the ability to stop rain

Cheers Brett

[alliecat]

Brett, I'm familiar with the Montane Atomic DT as I have one too - I never said it was an eVent product. Toray Entrant DT (the fabric) is a membrane material. There's not much info on that fabric around but it's a slight variant on Entrant GT II which has some info available. Incidentally the "Hyvent DT" used in some Mountain Hardware jackets is almost certainly re-branded Entrant DT.

You might find the eVent mitts wear quickly when used with poles. Some users have reported that - others say they had no problem. I think it's a problem with all the WPB fabrics when used in gloves or other high-wear areas. I have yet to find a really satisfactory solution for gloves with poles. A cheap pair of "japara" like mitts works okay for me so far but they don't breath well and so get a bit clammy inside after a while. Some people in the UK swear by "Extremities tuff bags" which are gore-tex mitts with reinforced palms. The Aus $ is pretty good against the pound right now so gear from the UK is a lot more affordable too.