Brands that aren't/are what they once were-Insert Brand

[tasadam]

I'm a periodic reader and first time writer... <snip>

Please note that new users have their posts approved, and yet they appear in topics when they are made, not when they are approved. As such, posts may appear in a topic prior to existing posts, as has happened in this case.

[Strider]

I am curious to hear from Blacksheep as to a reason for a $400+ discount just for signing up to be a member and agreeing to receive a newsletter.

The newsletter must be optional - I don't get it.

Increased sales and market research are the two main reasons that spring to mind.

[photohiker]

I was somewhat shocked by the vitriol Mr Safety's post has inspired.

I'm not.

In large part, I think the tone was set by MrSafety's title and lengthy rant in his first post. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Also, there have been repeated attacks against Macpac by several posters with an axe to grind on this site and the general userbase is well used to it and has had lots of practice.

For instance, critisising MacPac for taking production offshore is an un-winnable argument. MacPac made a business decision, and the company is still running and apparently doing well. Genuine bushwalkers still buy their products and approve of them. If they had left production in NZ, perhaps they would have gone under by now due to the lower prices of competitor products made offshore, but we will never know.

[norts]

I have been reading this thread with interest.
As most people who have been on the forum for a while know I have had my issues with Macpac, regarding a jacket, but I do have alot of there other gear, tent, down jacket , gaiters and clothes etc. and will continue to purchase from them if they have the item I want.
I also have issues with there Kathmandu style of sales, I will not purchase any gear from Macpac at full price now, money is too tight (anyone need a willing worker) and if they can sell it at the sale price then that is the value of the product as far as I am concerned.

Cam is the only consistent large manufacturer who takes the time to contribute to this forum. I would not like to see him give up on us. Stick with us Cam.

Roger

[JohnM]

But I simply don't believe that outsourcing manufacturing to asia produces as good a quality finished-product as doing it at home, using your own staff.

This is an incredibly naive statement.

Product quality is only ever as good as the quality control mechanisms that are managing it. Regardless of country of manufacture.

It would also be incredibly naive to assume that any business would sign up product quality sight-unseen with any offshore manufacturer, and without putting their own supervisory measures or resources in place on that factory floor to ensure continuous and ongoing monitoring of product quality.

I reckon it's incredibly naive to think that there is NO trade-off in quality control when you move to an outsourcing model. Surely it's easier to more effectively quality-control a manufactured product when the product is being manufactured in a purpose-built facility, by staff employed by you, whose only job is to manufacturer your gear?

I have no doubt the guys at Macpac do all they can to ensure quality control from their suppliers. But I also have very little doubt that if they could make the numbers work and run a profitable business, they'd prefer to make their gear themselves. The fact that they tried to hold onto NZ manufacturing for so long suggests they certainly see some value in it.

Anyway, when it all comes down to it, it's purely a matter of personal preference. I prefer to seek out gear made by companies that can still manage to have their own people make the stuff. And i'm happy to pay a premium for it.

Some of that is a quality equation, some of that is me liking the idea of insourcing and what it represents.

[Ent]

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Or by an attack carrier strike force by the looks of it!

[photohiker]

As you sow so shall you reap

[Ent]

As you sow so shall you reap

Um? No wonder life can be rather miserable being a moderator.

[sthughes]

I have had a bit of Macpac gear over the last few years. I think their tents are great materials wise, but yeah being proud of not changing in a zilllion years is weird to me. For example the Microlite I had was just ridiculously small for the weight in this day and age, but great materials and well constructed (made in Vietnam), much better put together than say Tarp Tent stuff. On the other hand I've got some pretty poor stuff from them too, so all in all a mixed bag. I would no longer buy anything expensive from them, but if I needed merino or a down gear and it happened to be 70% (or so) off I'd buy it there.

I'm too young to have been rich enough to buy Macpac in the "glory days" but I remember it was what it seemed everyone aspired to own. I remember suffering just a little envy seeing others with Macpac stuff while I had Kathmandu or whatever. Now it seems to be just another company making run of the mill stuff, no better or worse than Kathmandu, MD's etc. Whether quality has suffered in the move offshore I couldn't say, having never owned the old Kiwi stuff But that move, and even more so the move to constant billion % off sales has certainly destroyed the brand's image as a top notch product, at least to me. I can't think of another "top tier" company who has a marketing model like Macpac, hence I think why I no longer perceive Macpac as "top tier".

Like others have said, I think it's really all about the fact people cared about Macpac that has caused all the issues. They did a wonderfully job building a bubble of perceived "magic" in their brand (real or not? I can't say) that has been destroyed by their more recent marketing, manufacturing and customer service practices. Not surprisingly that's upset a not of their former fans.

If they honestly think the current stratergy is what's best for the company long term then good on them - they are a business, there purely to make money, whether we like it or not. I just can't help but wonder; where would the worlds most profitable company (Apple) be today if they had destroyed their "magical" marketing bubble in favour of higher turnover?

To answer the original post, I don't know if Macpac are going to the dogs. However I'm not sure that matters nearly as much (to their brand) as whether there is a perception in their customer base that they are going to the dogs, and from what I've seen on this forum and heard around the traps, that is certainly happening.

[highercountry]

20 odd years ago I bought Macpac, Fairydown and One Planet gear by default. I still own an 18 year old Olympus and a Fairydown pack from the same era. I gave the brand name little thought, I knew without any doubt I was getting top quality gear and was not going to see the same gear on sale tons cheaper a week or two later. I don't like Macpac/Kathmandus's marketing techniques. There is enough doubt in my mind (real or falsely perceived) to look elsewhere. I recently bought a Hilleberg tent because I knew it to be of absolute top quality, that's all I want. No niggling doubts. Macpac used to satisfy my desire for undoubted top quality. Unfortunately, whether it is a real or false perception, I don't trust them any more.

[Franco]

OK
So Macpac should really still make stuff in NZ , unlike most international brands that have their goods made in China or whatever, (BTW, again, Hilleberg is made in Estonia and Vietnam not Lithuania...) however it should also follow the Apple's business model, that is don't make anything and just get some gigantic corporation that make stuff for anyone to make theirs too.
A bit tricky I say..
In case you are not aware, most of Apple stuff is made by Foxconn in China, not by Apple in Cupertino USA...
Foxconn is Taiwan based but of course it is cheaper to operate from China.
It employs 1.2 m workers worldwide so maybe the economy of scale is a bit different than making tents an eVent jackets..
Franco
BTW, for geeks only : Foxconn started by making bits for Atari...

[vagrom]

Wow!This post has gone a bit viral. The lodgement business appears to touch a raw nerve.

Macpac set the standard imho, but this only became apparent over time. Their stuff has simply had fewer disaster stories; none that I know of.
As they change hands and outsource, all eyes, I guess, have been on how they bear up over time. There's a lot of choice out there. The thing that continues to catch my little practised eye over time is that the others, including dear brands like Salewa,
seem to design in bits that stick out, even if they can be velcro'd down for a storm. Macpac just seems to have managed without going over to these smart looking innovations.
But they've had to play keeping up with the Jones' weight-wise and that's eventually going to become a problem. Unless you can pay for Kevlar type stuff (probably well out of date by now itself), there's probably an optimal, bare minimum weight that one should realistically be prepared to put up with for south-west Tassie walking.
Will it stand up under a Shelf Camp northerly? My Microlight simply always has. Have the newer, lighter materials altered that quality? I don't know.
The only other thing for Tassie walking, a bathtub floor that allows a good night's sleep (somewhat), when it's wet enough to feel water sloshing around BENEATH the tent, is another Macpac winner, at least till now.
Some of that so lightweight looking, silicon coated stuff just looks almost see-through and probably good enough for a lot of mainland walking.

[wynyardwalker]

I'm just really impressed that a senior guy from the company has taken the time to reply to a critic who, by his own admission, has spent his years on the track mooching off others.
Looking at skin in the game I reckon that's 1-0.

[Stonie]

Hi Mr Black Sheep.

I am happy to say I have had a Genesis pack that will be 14 years old this year. It’s getting tired now but it’s been round the world multiple times, I lived out of it as my ‘home’ two years as a nomad of sorts and it’s been bashed about SW Tas multiple times too. I can honestly say that it’s one of the best material items I have ever owned. Period.

Regards,
Stonie.

[sthughes]

In case you are not aware, most of Apple stuff is made by Foxconn in China, not by Apple in Cupertino USA...

My point exactly, Apple have done it without bursting their "bubble" of perceived quality (note their stuff is no better quality than their competitors, it is just perceived that it is by their core market). Same goes for Hilleberg and One Planet. Macpac on the other hand combined their move to Asian manufacturing with endless stupid sales, raising pricesand moving from being stocked in specialised bushwalking stores to having their own clothing supermarkets with the el-cheapo travel clothes and high quality bushwalking stuff all mixed together. It's not just the move to Asia that has ruined their marketing bubble, that is just a small part. It's like if Apple when moving to Foxconn also suddenly jacked the price of all their current devices 30%, discounted them 50% in endless sales, yanked their products from all 3rd party retailers, filled the Apple stores to the brim with racks of el-cheapo generic electronics (with with an Apple logo glued on the front), kept producing the iPhone 3 for 25 years and then just had those existing few halo devices (iPhone, iPad, Macs etc) all regularly at 60% off mixed in with all the cheap Apple branded crap ($10 calculators and $15 cd players, $200 netbooks running Windows etc) and what not cluttering the shop. Yes they would sell bucket loads of stuff, but over time they would just become another run of the mill computer shop.

The flip side to that argument is that Macpac had a pretty small client base in the very high quality/high price bushwalking gear market, and much lower profit margins working through retailers. So to develop more growth it probably had no choice but to lower itself to the Kathmandu model where it can attract many, many more buyers and by opening their own supermarkets profit margins would have to be much, much higher. I'm sure they are making a barrel of money compared to the old model, it doesn't mean their customers of the old days will be happy, but from a bean counters perspective if you're making more cash who cares?

[Stonie]

Maybe a better topic would have been: “Is MacPac the new Kathmandu?”

(note their stuff is no better quality than their competitors, it is just perceived that it is by their core market). Same goes for Hilleberg

Yes, I perceive that my Hilleberg tent is awesome therefore it is.

[Strider]

Maybe a better topic would have been: “Is MacPac the new Kathmandu?”

But we already know the answer to that one!

Is it true Macpac is run by ex-Kathmandu staff? Excluding Jan Cameron obviously.

[Stonie]

So by extension… for those people that see Kathmandu as an inferior brand for whatever reason…

And that MacPac previously had a focus on tougher gear... assuming this how they gained their good reputation… it now looks as if now MacPac might be selling out that heritage to the mass market… (compete with Kathmandu et al.)
And if you are prone to using terms like "gone to the dogs?" To describe a change in perceived quality (remembering that quality is largely subjective and it’s perception often driven by how something is marketed)

Then perhaps for customer who holds the “old MacPac world view” then maybe for them answer is yes … MacPac has “gone to the dogs”

In summary, Sales and marketing can kill a brand quicker than a leaky tent!

I crown the new brand MacMandu

[blacksheep]

I don't.
Macpac is macpac.
Ps, yes 15 years ago for me and 20 for Bernie we were at Kathmandu. I also was at mountain designs and Bernie started bivouac. So the Lynch mob will do what with that info?

[photohiker]

So the Lynch mob will do what with that info?

Distort it and play it back ad nauseum.

Good effort Cam. Keeping a level head and a sense of humor in the face of critisism is no easy task.

[Strider]

I don't.
Macpac is macpac.
Ps, yes 15 years ago for me and 20 for Bernie we were at Kathmandu. I also was at mountain designs and Bernie started bivouac. So the Lynch mob will do what with that info?

Just wondered if there was any truth to it. Nothing more, honestly. You guys obviously have a great amount of experience in this field. It shows.

It makes me laugh how some people assume Macpac's sole priority is to cater only for bushwalkers, as if other markets mean nothing. Business just doesn't function that way! Sometimes compromises must be made (if they can even be viewed as compromises), and changes in business direction are the best option for that particular business. The opportunity cost of missing out on the gains from other markets is just too great.

[Stonie]

So the Lynch mob will do what with that info?

Nothing, because they are not aware of it. They just see a change in marketing/product and draw their own conclusions. Rightly or wrongly.

[Ent]

Maybe a better topic would have been: “Is MacPac the new Kathmandu?”

But we already know the answer to that one!

Is it true Macpac is run by ex-Kathmandu staff? Excluding Jan Cameron obviously.

As per this report Jan Cameron is involved http://www.smartcompany.com.au/retail/2 ... lated.html report is wrong. This story is also carried by the Financial Review.

It would make sense to re-use strategies that made her a very wealthy woman. Whether this is happening is something that only an insider could say.

As for employees and management given the "compact" nature of the industry it would not be a too bigger surprise to find that at least one senior person has worked for at least one of the competitors, if not more.

The above is a simple fact of business and reading anything from it would be a long reach appart from the reasonable assumption that people will take with them the strategies and tactic that were successful.

Cheers

[Strider]

Maybe a better topic would have been: “Is MacPac the new Kathmandu?”

But we already know the answer to that one!

Is it true Macpac is run by ex-Kathmandu staff? Excluding Jan Cameron obviously.

As per this report Jan Cameron is involved http://www.smartcompany.com.au/retail/2 ... lated.html report is wrong. This story is also carried by the Financial Review.

It would make sense to re-use strategies that made her a very wealthy woman. Whether this is happening is something that only an insider could say.

As for employees and management given the "compact" nature of the industry it would not be a too bigger surprise to find that at least one senior person has worked for at least one of the competitors, if not more.

The above is a simple fact of business and reading anything from it would be a long reach appart from the reasonable assumption that people will take with them the strategies and tactic that were successful.

Cheers

I meant other than JC - I knew she was involved.

Love them or hate them, Kathmandu is a very successful business indeed.

[Ent]

Unless I have misread previous posts on other threads Blacksheep himself worked for a few competitors but he is the best person to answer this question.

[blacksheep]

ok, I know I should let this dog lay down and sleep, but allow me this ..
For the sake of correct historiography: Macpac moved our production off-shore at the end of 2003. Myself, Bernie and Pierre bought Macpac and started to open our own Macpac-stores March 2008… four and a half years later.( last year Jan bought in also)


We still use the same suppliers. And quite frankly, the quality of the processes in the partner factories we use are way above any I have seen locally. Black diamond sew climbing harnesses with our suppliers- want to talk about consequence of poor manufacturing? One cornerstone supplier for us is a Melbourne based canvas maker who has made our propriety Aztec for close on 30 years (despite some advise elsewhere that using old ways and old idea is nothing to be proud of, I am)(edit: one change we did implement is to ensure that any cotton or loomstate used in Aztec came from fair trade growers and was certified organic)

Raising prices at the same time? Let’s look at a five Macpac classics:

The RRP of the NZ made Olympus in the Summer of 02/03 was $999.
Immediately after the move off-shore the price was $899.
The Summer 07/08 RRP was still $899 – just before we started to open our own stores.
Currently the RRP is $899... now $539 in the Winter Sale.

The RRP of the NZ made Torre in the Summer of 02/03 was $499.
Immediately after the move off-shore the price was $479.
Just before we started to open our own stores the Torre didn’t exist anymore - it had been dropped from the range.
We brought this classic back because we believed in the need for a 12oz single compartment workhorse. We used new and more advanced Liberator harness, that has just been through a little 860 day test (Ed Stafford carried this harness when he walked the Amazon) . RRP $599 and on now on sale at $359.

The RRP of the NZ made Litealp daypack in the Summer of 02/03 was $99.
Immediately after the move off-shore the price was $89.
The Summer 07/08 RRP was $99 again – just before we started to open our own stores.
Currently the RRP is $99... $59 in the Winter Sale.

The RRP of the NZ made Fast Eddy shorts in the Summer of 02/03 was $79.
Immediately after the move off-shore the price was $69.
The Summer 07/08 RRP was $79 again – just before we started to open our own stores.
Currently the RRP is $79... $49 in the Winter Sale.

The RRP of the NZ made Prophet in the Winter of 02 was $899.
Immediately after the move off-shore the price was $799.
The Winter 07 RRP was still $799 – just before we started to open our own stores.
The new Prophet in eVent fabric is currently $699... $449 in the Winter Sale. (I remember many members of this forum rubbishing the concept of eVent, but we made this shift because we tested and found it performs better than any other wp/br fabric)

So I dispute that we raised prices without adding value?

Yes, due to the new set up we’re able to offer our customers better deals than before. In the past all Macpac could do was suggest an RRP and it was up to the independent retailer what you were charged. Now we’ve got more control and we can actually make a difference in getting the best deals to our customers - directly. We can also show you our full range, rather than a ‘cherry pick’ by the independent retailer. We like that.
We’re not out to ruin a marketing bubble at all. What marketing bubble? Call us naïve but we actually don’t think our customers appreciate our gear because of marketing spin – we tend to think they like Macpac because of the quality and performance of the product; always have and always will. ( I bought my first Macpac as an 18 year old Outdoor education student, imagine the buzz to be here now!!) We’ve kept prices stable, are able to offer better deals to our customers, continue to put out products that perform, some new, some classics with tweaks, we’ve expanded our range without removing or despeccing any of the Core macpac products. The business is successful. The product still works for Marty Schmidt last fortnight on Everest, for Team Macpac winning the Mountain Designs Geoquest Adventure race last weekend, for Wes Moule carry more than he should further than is humanly possible, for tens of thousands of savvy customers with many choices the world over. Now it also keeps 2 year olds warm (why shouldn't they enjoy a down jacket?).

We are not elitists, yet we make for the elite (and now their aunty too).

To the original poster (wherever you are), we see no dogs on the horizon.

Thanks for the kind words offered by many of you here, they mean alot (there is a LOT of me in this business, I truly love what we are doing)

cheers
Cam

[sthughes]

Well I apologise Blacksheep and stand corrected on raising prices. I was drawing an incorrect inference it was the case because two of the most expensive items I have bought from Macpac were both bought cheaper (at about the time of the move to the Macpac retail shops) than I have since seen them in your sales, must have just been clearance specials at the time. Indeed with prices remaining static since circa 2004 they have in real terms reduced a lot.

I didn't mean to suggest customers will appreciate gear more from a company with a good image, if your tent fails in miserable weather you'll be unhappy wether it be a Hilleberg or a Black Wolf. But they will desire it more and feel better about spending big dollars on it if they perceive it is the best of the best. I doubt anyone would pay $1300 for an Olympus today, but apparently it was perceived to be worth it in 2002. ($999 in 2002 is about $1300 in 2012 money terms.)

[dancier]

Raising prices at the same time? Let’s look at a five Macpac classics:

The RRP of the NZ made Olympus in the Summer of 02/03 was $999.
Immediately after the move off-shore the price was $899.
The Summer 07/08 RRP was still $899 – just before we started to open our own stores.
Currently the RRP is $899... now $539 in the Winter Sale.

I'm pretty sure I paid around $800 for my Olympus 25 years ago and Cascade pack was much the same as they are now, maybe more.

[remote]

Well, I must me the lone TV repair man still plugging away.
Thank God people arent throwing thier Macpac gear out to buy new stuff all the time.

I have seen the worst of what consumers do to products, day in and day out. I see all the punishment dished out on gear, take it from me, inferior products dont last long and dont repair well.
We have all seen the twenty year old cascades still getting around, I reckon we will be seeing the same thing in twenty years with todays model too.

MrSafety............I think maybe it is you.

Ray.
Remote Equipment Repairs.

[Moondog55]

Ray you would probably see more, but the sort of people who buy good quality well made solid gear are also those who can do their own repairs. Amazing the number of us who own sewing machines and who lust after bigger and stronger ones too.