Insulated jackets and layering

[Suz]

Hey again smartypants forumites!

Onto my next equipment purchase! I have never yet owned a puffy jacket but it is time. I don't know whether to start with a light, mid or heavy puff as my first purchase. Ideally I want to minimise total gear purchases as it gets super expensive just kitting out 1 full gear set. So I want to make a decision that will cover me most of the time. I've done heaps of research of buying / choosing a jacket and now know of a great range of jackets to select from. I will be buying a synthetic puff. But the problem I'm having is selecting the right layering system. I need people who feel the cold when they've stopped walking for the day to comment on their experiences.

I already own all the other upper body layers - t-shirt / equivalent base layer, fleece, and rain /wind shell (thermals are for PJs only). Although I have a tendency not to feel the cold when walking, I really feel it once I've stopped for a while. So, mostly for night time use in cold conditions where my body cools rapidly, what kind of puff layering will work best?

I would probably just be wearing my thermals, no skanky base layer (maybe a clean one if I've got it) and maybe the fleece. Best outer layer for a person who tends to get cold at night is:

1 x light puff? - sufficient? packs small and light too. e.g. Rab Xenon X @ 340gm
1 x mid layer puff? - middle ground? e.g. Mountain Equipment Fitzroy @ 645gm
1 x heavy puff? - pack the extra weight and bulk but be assured of warmth. e.g. Mountain Equipment Citadel @890gm
buy 1 light or mid puff now with the view that I can buy an extra one to double puff on future trips for extra/flexible layering but the kicker is the double cost?

I look forward to hearing about what has worked for you.

[Moondog55]

I've got equivalents of all of those and I get to pick what suits the season and weather
If I had to pick just one it would be something in the middle ground and boost it with a second fleece layer at need.
I walk/skitour usually in base-layer plus shorts or wind pants/shirt and when I stop it's at least my secondary fleece plus my puffy
I also layer up my legs with the same or similar insulation
So I'm skiing in the Powerdry and Powerstretch tops and I have then the 100 wt plus Synthetic top as in the LW to medium weight i find synthetic far better for our winters, YMMV
How cold tho? I'm talking in the range 5C to -5C, When it gets to -12C and lower I'm all for the warmest heaviest parka I can carry [ which is over 2 kilos ]

[stry]

This is one of those "how long is a piece of string" issues Suz.

Always keep in mind that IF technology (fabrics, insulation, construction) are approximately the same, there is a direct relationship between weight and warmth.Can't be lighter without being cooler.

Of the down (yep - I know you're not looking ar down ) stuff that I have, the lightest and what I would call the middle weight are the most versatile,and usually sufficient, albeit with occasionally some help.

My heaviest jacket (not heavy by alpine standards) is wonderful when required, but I have perspired sitting still in it the morning after it was so comfortable the night before. So perhaps not as flexible as the mid weight with some backup. It is very dependent on the temps expected. The potential problem with having only a heavy jacket, is that you either sweat or take irt off and are cold.

I have one synthetic puffy, and old Integral Designs Primaloft, and I am still impressed with its warmth,although it does bring a weight penalty.

I am not familiar with the specific products that you are considering, but for Australia and some NZ use, I would opt for something in the middle, that you expect to be good down to zero or a bit less, when stationary, with your thermals and 100 fleece.

Unfortunately only experience and some analysis over time will tell you what your personal cold tolerances are, and how to relate those tolerances to products and manufacturers claims.

BPL has some single loft down insulation suggestions, which can be helpful in helping you work out whether or not you are "cooler" or "hotter" than whatever normal is.

[Suz]

Yeah well, I'm thinking whatever system I end choosing, to be able to adapt it to any weather. 2kgs is super heavy! Is it a doona trench coat? ;P

[kitty]

Hi Suz. Have you considered a vest? Im not sure if that is good advice or not for where you are heading, but thats what I use. In camp, I use thermal base layers, a hooded long sleeve light fleece and a puffy (down) vest. You can get synthetic puffy vests. Then I use more layers and my jacket if more is needed. Just an idea.

[Suz]

Ah thanks, I find the outside of my upper arms are one of the coldest bits of my body, defo want full sleeve.

[Moondog55]

No it's an Arctic overparka, only 100GSM Primaloft Combat [ same as Gold] but cut Huge although I do have an older down Parka from MD that masses almost 1.25kilos I have the military version of the Patagonia DAS parka and I consider that medium weight and suitable for snow
Consider a sleeveless vest as part of the system, a warm core will shunt heat to the extremities so a 200 weight vest combined with a 100 fleece plus a synthetic top with 60GSM would cover most of the country most of the time although I need more than that in the snow

[Mickl]

What about an UL down vest and then a lighter jacket be it down or synthetic as well to wear over the top? That way your effectively wearing a heavy jacket equivalent over your core and will save some weight as well. Would make for a more versatile set up. The Uniqlo UL down vests and jackets are pretty cheap if you do decide to go down vest or jacket as well. You could always get a down vest and then cover with a synthetic jacket when needed.

Only synthetic jacket I have is a mountain designs Bonfire 2 Jacket which is about 700 grams in a mens medium. I summited Kili wearing that with several layers under and a rain jacket on top and I was hot for a lot of the time until it got stupidly cold. I would think you would need to be a reptile to wear any of the real heavy jackets in anything other than sub zero temps.

[Stew63]

Insulated jackets and layering?
Someone on bushwalk.com late last year referred me to the Australian online site Torpedo7 for outdoor gear. I saved a $bundle on a (mens) MontBell Alpine Light Jacket (Goosedown) which is one of the best purchases I've ever made - incredibly warm, very light, huge internal pockets, large external pockets, generous hood, lots of great features and it compresses down to the size of a coffee cup! Total weight ~350gms.

[keithy]

I also get hot when walking, but cool down pretty quickly when stopped.

I have a few insulation jackets now - both down and synthetic. For a while I used a Helly Hansen Cross Insulator jacket with Primaloft Warmcore synthetic fill (not sure how it compares with their Gold series fill, but I think it was 100gsm). It weighs around 440 grams in small and I really only got it as I wanted an insulator jacket that would work if it got wet. I've never got it wet out though, either through rain or condensation. In rain I still have my rain shell over it. To me it is about the equivalent of wearing a 400ish fill down jacket.

But I bought a Marmot 800 goose down jacket last year that weighs 375grams and I took to Europe hiking in Sept to October. It is significantly warmer than the primaloft.

If it got under 0degrees, I layer underneath with a 150gsm or 200gsm merino tee shirt, a 200g long sleeve merino top, and if it is really cold, I'll wear a 260gsm merino top then the insulating jacket. But it's never got that cold with the down jacket to need the 260gsm merino top. I find my legs get cooler so I bring a separate 150gsm merino bottom that I can wear over my 200gsm merino thermals. With that, I wouldn't bring a fleece with me anymore.

Someone on bushwalk.com late last year referred me to the Australian online site Torpedo7 for outdoor gear. I saved a $bundle on a (mens) MontBell Alpine Light Jacket (Goosedown)

I looked at that exact jacket before I bought the Marmot. It came down to the fit was a bit baggier than the Marmot, and I didn't like that you couldn't stuff it into it's own pocket - the Marmot you can. Although the Marmot one I got doesn't have a hood.

I can recommend Torpedo7 as well, bought a bit of bike and ski gear from them in the past. They are NZ based.

[Chezza]

1 x light puff? - sufficient? packs small and light too. e.g. Rab Xenon X @ 340gm
1 x mid layer puff? - middle ground? e.g. Mountain Equipment Fitzroy @ 645gm
1 x heavy puff? - pack the extra weight and bulk but be assured of warmth. e.g. Mountain Equipment Citadel @890gm

For a camp puffy I look for PL Gold fill, minimal through stitches, minimal fabric and features. Great thing about PL Gold is its water resistance. I can throw it over wet layers and dry them out slowly. Can't do that with a down jacket.

The Xenon is a great light puffy. The other two are fully featured belay jackets, and have weight you don't need. The Montane Flux is roughly equivalent to the Fitzroy and has a female version. The Outdoor Research Chaos puffy has almost as much insulation as the Citadel but without the excess weight. It also comes in a female version.

This is what I'd suggest:

http://www.macpac.co.nz/insulator-hoody-w.html

It's a bonafide UL synth puffy, with 100/60 PL Gold fill, same as the Fitzroy and Flux. My missus and I each own one. I've found them a little too warm occasionally but she never has. She runs pretty warm for a woman, but definitely feels the cold in camp. The Pulsar has worked fine down to -3C sitting around with a baselayer and Powerstretch tights. Could probably work lower still. And it's on sale. The new ones look terrible though.

You probably won't need a fleece for walking unless it is below freezing in the day time, but better to learn that one the hard way.

[Suz]

OK…that is a lot of votes for a middle weight insulated jacket! Thanks everyone for your detailed analyses

I dislike that go between of being too warm and getting sweaty in something but too cold without it feeling that some of you have described too.

I have also considered that OR Chaos jacket Chezza, looks awesome…much more attractive than any other jacket save the Xenon. Out of stock atm sadly But probably too warm anyway. I think I might go with your Macpac jacket - that is a solid deal $160! 400gm packed wt, but 100 + 60gm body and sleeve / hood primaloft gold warmth. packs into self too. yeah it's not great to look at. But it means I get the Fitzroy warmth at the Xenon weight And at only 60% of the cost of either.

[Moondog55]

My only comment on that Macpac hooded jacket is the apparent slim fit, it may not have enough room underneath for layering, if that's the case perhaps think about getting a size larger. I have just enough room in my MB Thermawrap to get a LW fleece underneath it comfortably

[Chezza]

I have also considered that OR Chaos jacket Chezza, looks awesome…much more attractive than any other jacket save the Xenon. Out of stock atm sadly But probably too warm anyway.

Lol, I bought the last women's medium on the market - couldn't resist at $160. Postman dropped it off just now. I waited so long after they marked it down that the decent colours sold out, so my OH will have to put up with hot pink

Awesome jacket, but way too warm for all but camping in the snow, I think. It will make a great chairlift jacket for our ski trip this year.

[Chezza]

My only comment on that Macpac hooded jacket is the apparent slim fit, it may not have enough room underneath for layering, if that's the case perhaps think about getting a size larger. I have just enough room in my MB Thermawrap to get a LW fleece underneath it comfortably

Its not too atheltic - I usually wear a large and I can wear the large over a baselayer and a medium weight fleece, which is more than enough for me.

[Suz]

Lol, I bought the last women's medium on the market - couldn't resist at $160. Postman dropped it off just now. I waited so long after they marked it down that the decent colours sold out, so my OH will have to put up with hot pink

*&%$#!. Plus, what site were you using that it was ever $160?! After some research, I see there are still a couple of left overs at SierraTrading and Backcountry but they are like $300AUD including postage. Still I'm happy to go with the ugly macpac as it's probably more practical for camp nights.

Thanks for the heads up Moondog - I actually measured myself for the Macpac jacket - I don't think it's quite as slim fitting as it looks in the ad if the measurements are to be believed. Maybe they cinched the waist from the unseen side for photos - I've seen people do that on models when shooting ads.

[wayno]

http://www.gearbuyer.com/products/outdo ... omens.html

[Suz]

To hell with it, I just ordered a black medium Chaos from Sierra Trading and hopefully they come through with the goods. $210AUD incl. delivery. Maybe that's not the best deal out there but oh well. I noticed on my receipt it says "Please note: this is an order confirmation and not a guarantee of item availability." Slightly worrying but that's internet ordering isn't it.

My judgment is very clouded today due to positivity - oops! Rushed decision today and I may be sulking later if it doesn't work out :/

[Mickl]

OR make great quality gear and they are excellent to deal with as far as warranty etc goes.

[Chezza]

I got the last medium on Backcountry.

Its a tad heavy, and at the temperatures where it makes sense a down jacket may be a better idea for all but long ski tours, alpine climbs, and resort skiing.

It's only ~200g heavier than the Macpac Pulsar though, so don't sweat it. You can always get a different one later if this doesn't work out. You might be a bit warm in camp in the meantime

[Suz]

OR make great quality gear and they are excellent to deal with as far as warranty etc goes.

Yup I'm fully sold on their stuff - I find my Helium 11 rain pants delightful and just bought an Aspire jacket from them too Good to know they are good with warranty etc too, thanks. Hopefully Sierra comes through.

At the temperatures where it makes sense a down jacket may be a better idea

- I know what you mean but I'll never buy down, so I guess this'll be my polar extremes jacket and yeah I can buy something lighter down the track if needed. Got a little over excited this arvo and just went for it! Ah the joys of begin a woman, even I can't make sense of my decision making processes. Agonise over a tent, impulse buy a puffy.

[Chezza]

I don't like down either, it will fail on you exactly when you need it the most.

The Aspire jacket is a great choice! I have the men's equivalent and that Torsoflo system more than makes up for it being Paclite, as long as the wind isn't crazy enough to force you to zip it closed. Would be nice it were lighter but it is quite durable for the weight. There was barely any DWR on mine when I bought it though. Common complaint.

If I could get my OH to put any thought into our outdoor ventures I'd be thrilled.

[Suz]

Update: received OR Chaos in the mail. Pure dreaminess in terms of comfort - could have a little more length in the neck tho. Hood cinches at the rear too which I really like. Also good for gorilla shaped women like me with long arms.

I will watch out for the lack of DWR on my aspire jacket - hasn't had a test run yet. I partly bought it for the ventilation it has too - when you live in Syd it can absolutely P#@$ it down but still be warm, pretty much necessary to have some airflow or you start getting wet from the inside Sooo gross.

Oh no bout OH …not sure what you can do there except start talking some really harebrained schemes so that she is forced to put some thought into things and thus come to the rescue before you even hit the trail head.