Diesel engines in winter

[ErichFromm]

Before I get accused of an inappropriate thread please note I consider my car an essential piece of hiking equipment.

I recently bought a Diesel (Subaru Forester) and, as winter approaches, have started researching all the diesel related topics. Apparently you need to fill up with Alpine Diesel before going into cold conditions, or put in some additive to prevent fuel clumping and resulting filter blockages. Some people have even said to pour in Kerosene or Methylated spirits, or to maintain a small fire under your fuel tank!

So my questions:
• What do you do to prevent fuel blockages during winter?
• I note that Alpine diesel is not always an option (e.g., not available if you approach Vic Alpine region from South). So is an additive enough?
• When do you start using these things? Only when going to the snow or sometimes in suburbia if it really starts getting cold?

And while we’re on the Diesel topic, what about general additives? There are many products available but I read an article by RACQ that said they are not necessary due to the higher pressure of a Diesel engine which keeps plugs clean…. I don't want to be a victim of marketing and put in products that are not necessary.

[photohiker]

We time our run to the snow so that we arrive at Myrtleford or Mt Beauty with low fuel level. The stations there have Alpine diesel and we fill up and go.

AFAIK diesel fuel is required to be altered to suit the seasons.

http://www.caltex.com.au/sites/CaltexEn ... %20FAQ.pdf

[Moondog55]

A lot of alpine locals just add kero and unleaded petrol in a 50:1/100:1 ratio if they can't get Alpine diesel.
I know that additives are sold but no-one I know bothers, they just use alpine fuel or add the cheapest option which is the aforementioned kero/petrol blend
Waxing isn't a problem once the engine warms up, but they do sell a LOT of Aerostart [ which I think is mainly ether] in winter tho so adding a can of that to the boot is a good idea if you have easy access to the air intake
When in real doubt if you are an RACV member phone and ask to speak to the engineer for technical information
Making sure to that you have a definite winter grade oil in the sump also helps a lot, although with modern multi-grade oils that should never be a problem

[Moondog55]

The -4C cloud point alone is often not enough, temperatures can fall well below that
I do see that Caltex say never to add petrol to diesel fuel but I know people who do so on a regular basis with no problems, if in doubt kerosene is safer just not as cheap

[north-north-west]

I've had my car parked in the High Country in winter from the ACT to the Baw Baw, and the only time I've had the fuel issue was one year just before Christmas when a snowstorm hit while I was doing the Loch/Swindlers circuit. Had to have the RACT come out and thaw the fuel tank and lines.
After that I made sure to have Alpine Diesel in winter whenever possible (it isn't always), although that doesn't remove the issue of unseasonal weather.
I think there's a servo in Mansfield that stocks it year-round.

[gayet]

My experience with winter diesel (or alpine diesel -much the same) is to be aware of the different levels of wax added. Some fuel filters do not like Caltex winter diesel as it has slightly higher wax content and it gums up the filter. I do not know of any issues with Subaru but Mitsubishi filters (as fitted at factory) could be a problem. Mine was! Replace the filter at half life and avoid Caltex winter diesel and no problems after that

[Moondog55]

Unfortunately I think both the servos in Mt Beauty are now Caltex, and they only ever stock Alpine diesel fuel
Alpine diesel has a lower cloud point in winter than in summer I note from the Caltex link so it seems topping up with fresh fuel is a good idea always

[ErichFromm]

A lot of alpine locals just add kero and unleaded petrol in a 50:1/100:1 ratio if they can't get Alpine diesel.

I'm more than a little nervous adding anything into the fuel tank. My car is only a few months old and I'd hate to do something stupid to void the warranty. I'd speak to Subaru but am sure they'd just say "official expensive Subaru produced additives only"

[ErichFromm]

I've had my car parked in the High Country in winter from the ACT to the Baw Baw, and the only time I've had the fuel issue was one year just before Christmas when a snowstorm hit while I was doing the Loch/Swindlers circuit. Had to have the RACT come out and thaw the fuel tank and lines.
After that I made sure to have Alpine Diesel in winter whenever possible (it isn't always), although that doesn't remove the issue of unseasonal weather.
I think there's a servo in Mansfield that stocks it year-round.

It was actually one of your posts that made me aware there was a possibility that Diesel can have issues

If you manage to get around most of the time in the snow then it would seem this is not as big a concern/risk as I thought.....

[Moondog55]

I'd feel the same way in a new car still under warranty
In the total scheme of things the cost of an "Approved" diesel additive is competitively small for your total of activities; it's different for someone who lives in the area full time

[stry]

Modern common rail diesels are nightmare of complexity and sensitivity. (Please don't jump on me )

I wouldn't risk either kero or petrol in any of them. although personally, I can't see that a whiff of kero could do much harm. The stakes are high.

Not hard to get any of them running if they wax up. The hard part on anything modern is to get access to the inlet manifold/injectors/cylinder head(s), which is usually at least partly concealed by plastic bits and pieces.

Pack rags around these components and slowly trickle boiled water over them. Do this for a couple of billy fulls and you should have warmed things enough that it will start and run. No problem after that. You can get a result without the rags, but it takes more water and more time. The wet rags hold the heat longer.

I've never needed to warm the fuel filter, but it may or may not be necessary on some vehicles.

Aerostart requires a little care in use, as too much can cause a sufficiently violent start up for the engine to attempt to run backwards. This would not be good.

[gayet]

I would note, the problem I had with winter diesel was in a new car when purchased, had its first service at 15,000 prior to a trip to Cradle in June some years ago. Fuel flow problems evident around Mt Roland. Did get to Cradle but continued problems while there and very anxious return to Sheffield. No idea as to the problem, no warnings issued anywhere, mechanic couldn't identify where. Added something to the tank and filled it. Made it back to Hobart but still with issues whenever the engine was under a load.

It took several (~4) trips to Mits dealer mechanics to find the filter clogged with wax. Under load the waxed filaments were sucked flat and effectively blocked the filter. Reduce the load and they expanded and let fuel through. A cold filter wasn't the problem. New filter and avoid Caltex in winter - no further problems

[north-north-west]

I've had my car parked in the High Country in winter from the ACT to the Baw Baw, and the only time I've had the fuel issue was one year just before Christmas when a snowstorm hit while I was doing the Loch/Swindlers circuit. Had to have the RACT come out and thaw the fuel tank and lines.
After that I made sure to have Alpine Diesel in winter whenever possible (it isn't always), although that doesn't remove the issue of unseasonal weather.
I think there's a servo in Mansfield that stocks it year-round.

It was actually one of your posts that made me aware there was a possibility that Diesel can have issues

I have my uses after all. And there I was thinking I was only good for a laugh.

If you manage to get around most of the time in the snow then it would seem this is not as big a concern/risk as I thought.....

Yeah. Summer snowstorm, with the car parked for hours with the wind coming at just the right angle that the fuel tank and lines were in the most exposed position. If I'd parked it facing the other direction I'd probably have been OK. Or so the mechanic said.

Still, it doesn't hurt to be careful. If it ever does happen it'll be at the worst possible time.

[Alittleruff]

Add a container of Western oil "ice breaker" to a tank of fuel.
We do sell the stuff, to our customer base. It sells for $15 a bottle. It works well.

[Gadgetgeek]

Having run multiple diesel vehicles in very cold weather, I've got a couple thoughts. I'm not a mechanic, but I spent a couple years impersonating one.

Fuel additives. If the additive also includes a warranty for engine damage, then by all means, use it. Your dealership will be able to tell you which brands are good to go. Mixing kero or petrol in an older vehicle, not a problem, but with more modern vehicles, especially anything post 06,07 or so with the ultra-low sulfur diesel, Id say its a no-go. there are pour in "winterizing" additives that should be available to you, worth having a bottle or two on hand.

Water in the fuel is also going to be a higher concern, since diesel fuel can contain more water, there are additives that dissolve the water into the fuel, instead of just keeping the water from freezing. The one I used to sell was called dry fuel, and worked incredibly well. Bigger trucks have water separators, but consumer cars not as much.

Ether, or other starting fluids. Nope, never, don't do it. Again, on old iron, its not a problem, but on a newer vehicle you can fry sensors, trip out computers, and hurt turbos. no modern vehicle should need starting fluid. Its very easy to set a car on fire with ether, and despite appearances, they don't run so good when all the plastic is gone.
Things like a battery blanket, or even an incandescent work lamp under the hood should keep everything warm enough. Watch for the glow-plug light. Also consider running a slightly lighter oil, 5-40 instead of 15-40. If the manual doesn't tell you, ask the dealer about cold-start procedures, some vehicles have things you can do. Sometimes its as simple as if the car doesn't detect enough fuel pressure, you can crank all day, but it won't start. Or if you don't turn the key all the way to off, the glow-plugs won't warm up again.

Unless you are below -20 most non-start problems come from something else in a modern car. Old battery, wet air filter, bad fuel filter, or the loose nut behind the steering wheel. Not to discount anyone else's experience, a few survivable things can add up to be more than a car can handle. When I ran F trucks in the cold, they generally got left idling unless it was above -10. And those trucks got a fuel filter at every oil change, had filtered fuel added to them, and had plug-in heaters. And in the really cold, we would wire cardboard over the grill to reduce the air through the radiator.
So its not an easy situation.
If you are going to be in the cold alot, there are inline coolant heaters that can be added. They have the added benefit of instant heat once the engine starts.

Basic story is, talk to your dealer, they should be able to help you figure out which products to use, and what modifications are worth while.

[photohiker]

+1 on staying away from kero or petrol added to the tank on modern diesels.

[GPSGuided]

+1 on asking the dealer or net info from Northern Europe/North America. This is a big brand product, not as if people don't know how it behaves in extreme cold environment. Bush mechanic remedies and modern TDI engines don't mix.

[stry]

You reminded me of something Gadgetgeek - covering the engine and radiator.

I try to park not facing the weather, put a couple or three bags over the engine (under the bonnet) and also bag off the front. Not sure how much difference it makes, but always seemed like a good idea to me. Don't forget to remove the bags/blanket before you start up

[Moondog55]

Is there that much difference between modern small diesels and big block engines like the toyota 6?
Must admit that all the people I know drive bigger and older trucks and utes
As an aside on mixing fuel during the last fuel rationing I got stuck halfway home and was only allowed to buy $20- worth of petrol; I asked if kero was rationed [ there was a pump] and being told "No" I filled the old ute with kero with no problems at all

Does anybody remember the Top Gear Arctic episode where the Finns filled the HiLux with 50/50 diesel and super??

[vanNek]

Having run multiple diesel vehicles in very cold weather, I've got a couple thoughts. I'm not a mechanic, but I spent a couple years impersonating one.

Fuel additives. If the additive also includes a warranty for engine damage, then by all means, use it. Your dealership will be able to tell you which brands are good to go. Mixing kero or petrol in an older vehicle, not a problem, but with more modern vehicles, especially anything post 06,07 or so with the ultra-low sulfur diesel, Id say its a no-go. there are pour in "winterizing" additives that should be available to you, worth having a bottle or two on hand.

Water in the fuel is also going to be a higher concern, since diesel fuel can contain more water, there are additives that dissolve the water into the fuel, instead of just keeping the water from freezing. The one I used to sell was called dry fuel, and worked incredibly well. Bigger trucks have water separators, but consumer cars not as much.

Ether, or other starting fluids. Nope, never, don't do it. Again, on old iron, its not a problem, but on a newer vehicle you can fry sensors, trip out computers, and hurt turbos. no modern vehicle should need starting fluid. Its very easy to set a car on fire with ether, and despite appearances, they don't run so good when all the plastic is gone.
Things like a battery blanket, or even an incandescent work lamp under the hood should keep everything warm enough. Watch for the glow-plug light. Also consider running a slightly lighter oil, 5-40 instead of 15-40. If the manual doesn't tell you, ask the dealer about cold-start procedures, some vehicles have things you can do. Sometimes its as simple as if the car doesn't detect enough fuel pressure, you can crank all day, but it won't start. Or if you don't turn the key all the way to off, the glow-plugs won't warm up again.

Unless you are below -20 most non-start problems come from something else in a modern car. Old battery, wet air filter, bad fuel filter, or the loose nut behind the steering wheel. Not to discount anyone else's experience, a few survivable things can add up to be more than a car can handle. When I ran F trucks in the cold, they generally got left idling unless it was above -10. And those trucks got a fuel filter at every oil change, had filtered fuel added to them, and had plug-in heaters. And in the really cold, we would wire cardboard over the grill to reduce the air through the radiator.
So its not an easy situation.
If you are going to be in the cold alot, there are inline coolant heaters that can be added. They have the added benefit of instant heat once the engine starts.

Basic story is, talk to your dealer, they should be able to help you figure out which products to use, and what modifications are worth while.

Working for a Subaru specialist with 3 factory trained technicians, this is sound advice.

Defiantly DO NOT DO the Kero/petrol thing... Say good by to $4000+ of injectors fuel pump etc

I don't know about winterizing vehicle Queenslander born & breed. But I know fuels and in particular diesel are modified according to season.

Any additives you do you, stick to something reputable, Nulon, Penrite, wynn's etc even Repco brand.


"No half measures, but..... Never go full retard"

[stansi]

I 've used this product for about four years, most weekends in winter at Hotham. It's what the local RACV use to solve problems on the mountain.
I add it at about 1%, seems to work fine. Another thing I've found is to make sure all the glow plugs are functioning in older model 4WDs.


cost approx. $35/2lt. from Shell servo in Bright.
Oh, I add it to the alpine diesel they sell just to be sure, to be sure.

[ErichFromm]

I love my diesel. The low end torque, mileage and knowing it's relatively bomb proof, but all this winter stuff seems like a big pain in the rear end.

Thanks for all the responses.

The whole "modify according to season" - does it apply to diesel mix in the city, or just the switch to alpine mix around ski areas?

I note too that idling to warm up the engine is a waste of time too. I read that you should wait 60 sec to get fluids moving but because diesels run cooler no point waiting any longer. Just drive easy for a while (less than 3000 revs)

[GPSGuided]

I think you are over anxious. There are plenty of small car TDIs there in Northern Europe, all running well in conditions far colder than we have here. Just top up with 'alpine diesel' and be done with it. Worry more only if you encounter problems.

[Gadgetgeek]

There is going to be some difference between cars sold for different regions, but by and large they are all pretty close. The main thing would be that a car serviced in north queensland or WA would be getting far thicker oil as a standard option, over say northern Alberta where even big trucks use oil too thin for a sewing machine! As far as sensitivity to things, when I was working on cars, right as the ultra-low sulfur diesel change-over was happening, we heard from a lot of F350 drivers that simple mistakes, the wrong rating of oil, a bit of bad fuel or anything like that, and everything from fuel injectors to pumps to turbos were ruined. Something to do with changes in chemistry I think. But in that same time, the Jetta TDIs were eating whatever they were given and being happy as can be.
Lucas is a big company, with a good rep, so that would be a good option for piece of mind. but like I said, all the good companies offer engine damage coverage in the case that the additive does something bad.

As far as warming up the engine, a minute is fine for the motor, but there is no real harm in making sure you've got enough heat to clear the windows and keep the fingers warm;)

[Moondog55]

As far as warming up the engine, a minute is fine for the motor, but there is no real harm in making sure you've got enough heat to clear the windows and keep the fingers warm;)

This has taken as long as an hour some very chilly days when we forgot to put the cardboard in front of the radiator, but driving down the hill [ any hill] isn't the best with a fogged windscreen

[Moondog55]

I found this whole discussion of interest and I just got off the phone after taking to an RACV technical adviser for about half an hour
RACV are very conservative and of course tell you to always follow that written advice of the car manufacturer but he did say that there was a huge gulf between small modern engines and anything over 4 litres in engine displacement
So best to disregard my post on adding anything to the fuel unless it's an old, large engine
At the Falls Creek CFA we got over the waxing problem by having a heated slab in the truck garage so the fuel and oil were always well above 15C but we did wax up the big Bombardier tracked vehicle one busy W/E and that was filled with Alpine winter diesel but it got below -12C and the heater in the floor was for some reason not working properly. We had to put a portable electric heater in the engine /fuel compartment a until it warmed up enough to allow fuel to flow [ lucky it was a training session and not a fire]

[ErichFromm]

I find it amazing that you can add different types of fuel to a diesel at all (whether it be a new or old engine). I've always thought that engines were so particular that anything other than one type of, carefully mixed, fuel and the whole thing would blow up. Is this true of just Diesel or can other type of fuels be used or added to petrol engines?

I'm due for my first scheduled service in a couple of weeks. I'll ask the Subaru dealer about winter and additives...

[Moondog55]

See my post about running the old Ford ute on kero/unleaded blend

[RonK]

I find it amazing that you can add different types of fuel to a diesel at all (whether it be a new or old engine). I've always thought that engines were so particular that anything other than one type of, carefully mixed, fuel and the whole thing would blow up. Is this true of just Diesel or can other type of fuels be used or added to petrol engines?

I'm due for my first scheduled service in a couple of weeks. I'll ask the Subaru dealer about winter and additives...

You are absolutely correct. Modern common-rail EFI diesels are a different animal to older engines with mechanical injection systems. You would be wise to be very circumspect about using anything but approved additives particularly while the vehicle is under warranty.

By those who know, not those who think they know - The Little Book of Diesel Facts. Start reading at page 35

[McGinnis]

I've always used a bit of kero mixed into the tanks in my Troopy and never had an issue. It is, however, big ol' iron with a mechanical fuel pump.

As has been said before, adding anything to a CRD could be disastrous. Some of the newer piezo CRDs run fuel pressures up to around 44 000 PSI . I wouldn't do anything to a CRD engine that isn't in the manual.