Bushwalk Australia

Has anyone tried the cheaper down sleeping bags such as the ones on ebay? I am looking for something that does not have a dwr coating as I can't stand the smell of the stuff. I am not concerned if the cheaper down bags are a little heavier than the dearer ones, but I do need something warm and I am a bit fed up with the way my (cheaper) synthetic bags have compressed and lost efficiency after a few years. Some form of intelligent discussion of the temperature ratings of sleeping bags would also be useful. To give a guide of my requirements, I am a cold sleeper and my -5 rated cheap oztrail brand bags were comfortable down to about 10 deg, loose as a quilt, in a tent, on a thick mattress. I went car camping last weekend and used both bags (now old and compressed) with an extra blanket inside at a 5 deg minimum (on a self inflating mat but under a tarp with some wind chill). I am looking for something that will keep me comfortable down to 0 or just below, under a tarp with some wind chill. Incidentally, I read the blurb that comes with a new -5 rated oztrail bag and it was suggesting use in +5 conditions. Are all manufacturers that optimistic in their ratings, or do I need to look for a bag that is rated 15 or more degrees colder than my planned use? Thanks.

A lot of makers for the mass market use the "Survival" temperature when marketing bags and yes there is a 15 degree difference between comfort and survival temperatures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_13537
Personally I have never "Smelt/Smelled" a DWR treatment on a commercial product, although some after market treatments like Nikwax do have an odour it disappears in a few days
I think having a bag or quilt rated to 5 degrees lower than your lowest expected temperatures is simply intelligent planning and if you know you are a colder sleeper than the EN mannequin get a bag that is 5C warmer again
So if you want to sleep in freezing conditions [ 0C] and are a cold sleeper get a bag rated to -10C
I've argued here often that -18C/0F is about right for our winters above the snowline and I can probably push my own sleeping system down to -35C, certainly it's warm at -25C
Down has its own distinctive smell too don't forget and a wet down bag can really pong

Also keep in mind that what Wiki refers to as "Lower limit" is referred to as "limit of comfort" by many bag makers.

I'm pretty sure that MD is referring to "Comfort", not limit of comfort, with his recommendations (which are sound, BTW). As he explained there can be a big difference, and one needs to keep one's wits about one when reading labels.

It seems to me that plenty of the $2 bag makers and sellers word their claims very carefully, to disguise and mislead whilst minimizing the chance that they may breach any relevant laws.

I would hazard that you might be able to get a better estimate of temp rating by looking at the total weight of the bag. I would assume that cheaper bags would use heavier fabric, but then you also have to think that a 600g down cheap bag is not going to have much in it. So that might be a way to go at it. I guess it all comes down to how much you are willing to risk on it.

stry wrote:Also keep in mind that what Wiki refers to as "Lower limit" is referred to as "limit of comfort" by many bag makers.

I'm pretty sure that MD is referring to "Comfort", not limit of comfort, with his recommendations (which are sound, BTW). As he explained there can be a big difference, and one needs to keep one's wits about one when reading labels.

It seems to me that plenty of the $2 bag makers and sellers word their claims very carefully, to disguise and mislead whilst minimizing the chance that they may breach any relevant laws.

Yes using the comfort rating is the best assurance for that margin of safety I think you need, just in case you are at that tired and run down part of the walk/trip you are doing.
Also be aware that what is considered cheap down [ in quality not cost] would still have been considered superior quality 20 years ago
The information in this BPL link is worth considering too
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... ZNIgEYgiJ0

I'd suggest you reconsider looking at budget bags.
They seem cheap until you realise you then need to quickly replace them and have bought twice.

Buy once and buy right (at the sales which practically all the big brands have).

Two things I wouldn't skimp on would be tents and sleeping bags as a decent nights sleep either makes or breaks a trip for me.

Some of my fondest memories are of being the only tent standing in wild weather whilst the sodden abandoned camp and as well being in a cabin above the snowline in NZ and it was the chattering of teeth of others that disturbed my toasty slumber.

I use a lighter weight bag for cycle touring in weather down to around 0.
The specs are 400 grams of 800+ of goose down which is rated to 2 degrees but I've been snug at -2 wearing my polyprop Macpac base layer

I have a warmer bag for colder temps of around 800 grams but have yet to use it in anger here in Aus as my useage is below the snowline.

Aldi selling a 0 deg comfort rated down bag for $99 on saturday. No idea how it performs but seems like a good price and id trust their gear over ebay cheapies

I used an Aldi down bag (identical to the ones on sale this weekend - black shell, blue lining) for about 12 months. It's duck down which is not as warm as goose down. The bag performs as advertised, with a comfort rating of about 5 degrees. I used mine with an old Palm sleeping bag compression stuff sack and it compressed nicely. It retained its loft after a couple of shakes.

For $100 it's an OK bag by itself for 3 season use. I have paired it with a +10 degree synthetic jungle bag (down bag inside the synthetic) and it has been plenty warm enough at minus 5 degrees ambient temp when used with a standard Thermarest.

It's warmer, more compressible and lighter than the 1960s-vintage Paddymade "Kiandra" superdown sleeping bag I use now. If the Aldi bag fails on you for any reason take it back for a refund. Can't do that with a Chinese eBay special in most cases.

I notice on massdrop theres a $99 kelty downbag rated 21f (just below 0c). Another possibility?

If it is the same down bag as last year I remember it being tiny, I bought one of the summer bags as an experiment [ since given away to another forum member] and I couldn't do up the side zipper it was that tight on my shoulders and chest.

I was looking very carefully at the eBay down bags and I do love me a bargain so it took a lot of soul-searching to find the self-control to drop coin on a quality bag instead. My bag costs more than my tent, and the tent wasn't cheap either.

My major reason for doing so was not the rating confusion or lower-quality down, both remedied with an extra fleece. It was more so the shell, stitching and zippers - down can last 15 years if treated carefully so the construction of the bag will fail well before the down.

I have a +10C jungle bag by Kitbag, which supplies the defense forces (got it on Gumtree, typical me) and the quality of the stitching and especially the heavy-duty zippers are outstanding.

I am the last person to tell you this but it's worth saving more for the extra quality when talking about tents and bags. Anything else is tight-a$$ time.

I have bought cheap sleeping bags, expensive sleeping bags and very expensive sleeping bags and I have not ever regretted paying for the very expensive ones.
$800- divided by 30 years isn't really a lot of money per year; just a very high prime cost. An alternative if you are handy and fit into an Asian cut bag would be to buy an ALDI down bag, rip the side seam and replace some of the cheap down [ or simply top-up as they are under-filled] with good stuffing from Tiergear

The price difference between brands may depend on the provenience of the down. I am not vegetarian and I understand we need to get products from nature somehow, but live plucking is a very cruel process.

Here is a link with pretty shocking videos and photos of some Asian down farm:

http://www.peta.org/features/down-investigation/

Some info on what Responsible Down is all about and what brands are involved here:

https://www.textileexchange.org/upload/Integrity/Standards/RDS/TE%20Responsible%20Down%20Standard%202.0.pdf

And here: https://www.textileexchange.org/standards-integrity/standards/responsible-down-standard

I differ Ethical live plucking is a very sustainable if expensive way to get the very best quality down. The EU ban on live harvesting has however closed those Ethical sources down

Actually cheap down will keep you just as warm as the 900 FP stuff, it is just going to be a fair bit heavier for the same warmth and bulkier when compressed.

Naturally the better brands do tend to use the higher fill power down (best of everything) but there is no reason a budget bag could be well made and accurately rated with cheaper down (it'll just be heavy and bulky relative to the high end products). I don't have any experience with these cheaper brands though so can't comment on what may or may not be this theoretical brand in practice.

Synthetic bags (particularly the cheaper ones) are notorious for being over optimistically rated for temperature. This will happen with some poorer down bags too, however overall down is a qualitatively 'nicer' or 'toastier' warmth - so i would have more faith in a inaccurately rated down bag keeping me warm than an inaccurately rated synthetic bag (if that makes any sense at all? ).

Moondog55 wrote:I differ Ethical live plucking is a very sustainable if expensive way to get the very best quality down. The EU ban on live harvesting has however closed those Ethical sources down

I don't want to steer the thread off topic, but I have never heard of ethical live plucking and really curious about it. Do you have any info?

I think MD might be referring to collection of down from the nests of living birds? Or non-invasive hand plucking?

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I admit to ownership of cheap down filled gear and would like to think it was sourced from a food by- product and not live plucking.
Our sleeping bags are Polish ethical down filled

Eider
From Iceland
But in the old pre-EU days geese for the production of down were specifically raised in Poland. At certain times of the year ie: mating/nesting season geese release hormones that relaxes the down follicles and they self pluck to line the nests, use was made of this and the geese were plucked bare of down before housing in heated shelters
Plucked of the down NOT of the feathers, plucking down at that time of the year did the geese no harm and it had a definite benefit as older geese have bigger stronger down plumules.
Geese and ducks raised for food are young with smaller less robust plumules and the down is not as good, we just get better quality down now because the sorting and washing machines are very much better
I was happy to pay a premium for the higher quality down when I bought my J&H bag years ago and would happily do so now and we are killing literally billions of ducks for food in China so there is a lot of down to choose from

EDIT
We had this discussion last year

Thanks for all the comments. I got one of the Aldi bags to check out considering that they have an excellent return policy and you can't really get a good look in the shop. It does look like the shell is perhaps not as durable as one might wish for. Have any Aldi bag users (or other cheap bag users) actually had a major shell failure? I haven't used it so if I decide it is not right I can still take it back in clean unused condition. The tier gear stuff looks interesting, I think I might buy a little down and fabric and try knocking up a down hat or some booties or something to judge if I want to tackle a big quilt/bag project. An $800 bag might seem like good value in 20 years, but it just isn't in the budget. Also, I am not experienced enough with lightweight gear to really know exactly what I want in the long term, including whether I will end up predominately a hammock user or a ground dweller. As they say you can have pretty much anything you want but you can't have everything you want. Which is always complicated by figuring out what you really want.