Bushwalk Australia

I'm after some more advice please, this time regarding choice of sleeping bag for EBC / 3 Passes trek and the Kilimanjaro climb. I've done endless searching for recommendations but have found suggestions for anything from -20C to -5C ratings, and even the odd person saying to just use the lodge blankets in the Nepali teahouses. Historical temperatures appear to get to as low as -20C.

I have the following other equipment to use for layering, and will have appropriate gloves and likely down booties. My sleeping pad is a Neoair Xtherm (R5.7).
- 260 weight merino thermal top and bottom (and some thin ones I could layer underneath)
- Arcteryx Atom LT synthetic hoody
- Crux Pyro down jacket (box wall, ~200g 850fill) https://www.crux.uk.com/product/new-pyro-jacket

I'd prefer to stick with either Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering bags due to their reputation for quality and longevity.

Bags on my list:
FF Lark UL 10: -12C, 971g
WM Versalite 10: -12C, 1045g
WM Antelope MF 5: -15C, 1160g
FF Snowbunting EX 0: -18C, 1355g
WM Kodiak MF 0: -18C, 1330g

I'm also open to combining lighter weight bags - I'm pretty keen on getting a FF Flicker (either 20 or 30F) for Australian use. That said, I believe a Lark or Versalite would be useable in Aus with a bit of down rearrangement.

Thanks!

Insulation is cumulative and I do wear clothing to bed always, how much clothing depends on all the other factors such as temperature and sleeping bag warmth.
So will the Crux pyro and the Atom LY layer so you can wear both together? Have you tried layering them yet ?
Do you own or intend to use a bivvy sack/
Don't forget that for sleeping you need to wear insulated pants as well because the femoral area is one of great heat loss
Do you want a systems aproach or a single bag?
I can think of a number of ways to get a good nites sleep in temps ranging from the base at 20C to the summit at -25C.
The WM Kodiak may be too much bag for Australia unless you do a lot of snow camping; I did a lot of research on that bag and then decided to go a different route
Mind you I may have a vested interest in pushing the systems approach as I am trying to sell some stuff to fund new purchases.
A systems approach is more versatile but heavier but has the advantage of you already carrying day time cool weather clothing
Also don't discount Nunatak or One Planet or S2S or a quilt from Mike here or Evan at TerraRosa, Mike for down, Evan for synthetic
My own overquilt is coming from Nunatak as soon as i can pay off the rest of the order cost

You may find those a bit warm, particularly if you are a warm sleeper. Last time I was there I used a Marmot Helium, rated to -9C but I only fully zipped it up a couple of nights.

Thanks Moondog55 and RonK,

I am generally a warm sleeper but fatigue and inadequate nutrition can knock me around a bit. Altitude is an unknown for me at this point too so I'll go with 'average'.

I just re-checked and can layer: thin Aldi thermals, 260 merino thermals, Arc Atom LT and Crux Pyro. Fit is a little snug around the forearms and under armpits but otherwise feels like I'm not losing too much loft.I will have all of these clothing layers with me anyway so I would be happy to make use of them in a systems approach, particularly if it means I avoid having a bag that rarely gets used. Or if it means I save carried weight without significantly sacrificing comfort or safety.

I do not currently own a bivy sack (except for an emergency space blanket kept in my first aid kit). I had considered acquiring one as an emergency shelter for use in Nepal, and maybe for minimalist camping in QLD. Do you have any suggested options that would work well for a sleep system? MLD claim their Superlight Bivy adds 5-15F. It's ~230g but DWR only. They have a slightly heavier eVent version too.

I don't yet have any insulated pants, just thermal bottoms.

I'll have another look at Mike's quilts, I wasn't sure if the fabric was up to the quality of FF or WM. I'm determined to get something that can handle condensation after a few bad experiences with down in the footbox area of my EE quilt getting wet.

2 scenarios I'm envisaging based on your feedback:

- Neoair Xtherm pad
- FF Lark 10
- Crux Pyro
- Arc Atom LT
- ? Insulated pants

or (this might be pushing it?)
- MLD eVent Bivy
- Neoair Xtherm pad
- FF Flicker 20 or equivalent quilt from Mike
- Crux Pyro
- Arc Atom LT
- ? Insulated pants

I'd leave out the 260 woollens for sleeping so that clothing isn't too tight as that can make you cooler due to vascular constriction and given what you just said about condensation you may feel more secure using a synthetic quilt.
My own proposed Arctic system will be; down half bag, my LW Ultra bag and a synthetic quilt [ 3.5ounce APEX] down to -30C and adding my Patagonia MARS pants and a parka if needed to get me down below -40C
My conversation with the team at Nunatak gives me confidence that I could easily tackle -20C without the sleeping bag using the halfsack plus the parka and quilt with pants if needed

Mike and Evan and Simon use the same fabrics ar FF & Nunatak AFAIK
WM use a different supplier but they are all pretty much the same specifications.
Depending on the Clo value of the clothing worn you can get up to 4Clo or sometimes more and this can add up to 20C to a bags rating, generally any thicker than 25/30mm on the legs and arms is wasted but you can get up to 55mm on the torso easily.
If you simply measure how thick the clothing is and assume 4Clo per inch/25mm you wil be close

It's always tricky with bags, because when you're into the serious minuses they can be expensive and you want to get good use out of them.
I have a Versalite and it's a good bag for -8 to -10.
RonK also mentioned the Marmot Helium. That's a good bag and is similar to the Versalite.



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Several things you have not mentioned - is your trek in spring or autumn, are you camping or teahousing, will you be carrying all that stuff yourself or will you have porters.

Btw, I never wore anything in my Marmot Helium except a silk liner bag.

Nepal will be Autumn (October). I'll be teahousing. Carrying it all myself, hence my preference for lighter gear. I believe I also need to get my checked baggage under 10kg for the KTM to Lukla flight.

I have the WM Antelope with gore wind stopper and use it in the snow (NSW). It's a fantastic, warm bag that lofts up very quickly. The craftsmanship is excellent.

I layer my EE quilt in the summer and shoulder seasons with a down jacket and this works well but I wouldn't like to do that in the snow/winter. Condensation is a b!tch in this country and potentially introducing moisture over night into both my sleeping bag and jacket aren't worth the risk. In colder weather I think it's important to have something to fall back on. This allows me to have a completely dry jacket in the morning and at night around camp. Over several days I find that any sleeping bag will lose loft and warmth due to condensation.

The antelope is heavy in comparison to my other gear (gram weenie here ) but definitely worth it. For what it's worth, I sleep cold and have pushed it down to -10 comfortably. I think I could just take it to -15. I use an Xtherm max for a mat.

I find the gore material to be excellent and have no issues with cold/wet footbox.

Happy to answer more questions about the Antelope

On any temp ratings I'd take it with a grain of rock salt. Get something rated that will suit colder than you expect.
You can always stick a leg out if you are too warm.
Same for hot weather, push the bag to the side.

Go S/H
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25949

add insulated pants + booties and/or a half bag and a down parka [ needs the hood] and good as low as could be reasonably expected

findbuddha wrote:Nepal will be Autumn (October). I'll be teahousing. Carrying it all myself, hence my preference for lighter gear. I believe I also need to get my checked baggage under 10kg for the KTM to Lukla flight.

Ok, an autumn trek will be cooler than in spring, but since you are teahousing you don't need to go overboard. If you are fit and not overloaded then exhaustion should not be a problem and the teahouses should have plenty of dahl baht. You will need to carry a reasonable quantity of snacks/energy bars.

Some of the comments here way exceed anything I carried over multiple spring and autumn treks. And since you'll be carrying it yourself you need to manage both the weight and the bulk of your load.

A down jacket would be nice to have in the tea houses, but for daywear I'd be taking a 300 fleece, 150 fleece, set of thermals, shorts, shell, waterproof pants and gaiters. Gloves, hats of course. You will need another set of thermals or microfleece to wear at night and get changed into as soon as you stop walking.

A tip from a minimalist trekking guide was to wrap my sleeping bag around my shoulders to stay warm in camp. I though the Sierra Designs Mobile Mummy bag would be a good substitute but possibly not quite warm enough.

I haven't done any trekking myself but I have read that the tea houses can be hit&miss on mattress/blanket quality so the quilt may be the preferred option there and also why taking your own mattress may be a good idea. As Ron says you can use a bag as a camp blanket but again a quilt will do the same job.
You would of course be wearing any heavy clothing on the plane so it doesn't count as part of your luggage allowance

If you know what bedbugs are, you won't be wanting to use the bedding in the teahouses.

RonK wrote:If you know what bedbugs are, you won't be wanting to use the bedding in the teahouses.

Unfortunately not just Nepalese teahouses or cheap Balinese hotels

Findbuddha if you are a medium to Large in pants I may be willing to swap my ORs for a Kukri you could bring home with you

http://www.thekhukurihouse.com/catalog/ ... 23035f45c9

If you find you are cold at night, you can always add a hot water bottle (using Nalgene or aluminium bottles).

You'll probably be just fine with any of the bags you've been considering. And since the weight difference between the heaviest and lightest of those is less than 400g it probably doesn't matter that much since with teahouse trekking you won't be carrying that much else.

I visited EBC and Gokyo in late November / early December 1993. I took the only bag I owned at the time, a -15°C bag that weighed about 1.6kg. I had a bivy sack and an ensolite pad as well as I was worried I might somehow not make it over Cho La in a day. So all told my sleeping gear was kind of on the heavy side for a teahouse trip. But I don't recall it being that big of a deal since I didn't have to carry food or a stove or a tent. Warm clothing was more important to me. I watched the Everest Marathon runners jog by at Gorek Shep early one morning and I remember it was freezing cold and I was very glad to have a down jacket, hat, and decent gloves. At Loboche I watched a young Sherpani wash her hair one day. It froze as she tried to comb it out, prompting her to laugh at herself.

On Kili we had to have a guide and porters and could more or less have them carry whatever we wanted. I don't think that requirement has changed. That's an expensive mountain to walk up.

If it were me, I'd take the same kind of bag in terms of temperature rating as I did in 1993 and supplement with warm clothing as it is appreciated even if the bag is warm enough on its own. Of course a modern bag will be lighter than what I had.

Don't worry too much about it. And have a great time.

Here's a very good sleeping bag for your requirements + bivy bag to protect it from rain and anything else (and added warmth):

http://www.go4awalk.com/m/product-revie ... iew=601507

Tested it in a night with -11 deg C in the open and I was warm. No bivy bag was used.

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I think I'll try out the 20F/-7C Flicker in Queenstown next month to get an idea of how I cope. Depending on the conditions I experience I'll either get a warmer bag for Nepal, or plan to use the 20F Flicker + down jacket + insulated pants + down booties (+ maybe a light bivy sac).

RonK wrote:

findbuddha wrote:Nepal will be Autumn (October). I'll be teahousing. Carrying it all myself, hence my preference for lighter gear. I believe I also need to get my checked baggage under 10kg for the KTM to Lukla flight.

Ok, an autumn trek will be cooler than in spring, but since you are teahousing you don't need to go overboard. If you are fit and not overloaded then exhaustion should not be a problem and the teahouses should have plenty of dahl baht. You will need to carry a reasonable quantity of snacks/energy bars.

Some of the comments here way exceed anything I carried over multiple spring and autumn treks. And since you'll be carrying it yourself you need to manage both the weight and the bulk of your load.

A down jacket would be nice to have in the tea houses, but for daywear I'd be taking a 300 fleece, 150 fleece, set of thermals, shorts, shell, waterproof pants and gaiters. Gloves, hats of course. You will need another set of thermals or microfleece to wear at night and get changed into as soon as you stop walking.

A tip from a minimalist trekking guide was to wrap my sleeping bag around my shoulders to stay warm in camp. I though the Sierra Designs Mobile Mummy bag would be a good substitute but possibly not quite warm enough.

I'm reasonably fit and base weight for my pack is currently looking to be a touch under 12kg. In addition to the down jacket I'll have a light synthetic puffy (Atom LT), thermals, light windshirt, zip-off trekking pants, hardshell top and bottom, and gaiters, gloves, beanie, sun hat. Hopefully have enough layers to cope with a good variety of conditions.

Moondog55 wrote:Findbuddha if you are a medium to Large in pants I may be willing to swap my ORs for a Kukri you could bring home with you

http://www.thekhukurihouse.com/catalog/ ... 23035f45c9

Cheers I'll send you a PM.