Bushwalk Australia

http://garmin.blogs.com/my_weblog/2013/ ... ci6OJzhdGt

It will be interesting to see how the interface works on Android!

Crikey can you imagine combining a flaky phone OS with a company known for flaky firmware. I'll be avoiding this one like the plague! I wonder what version of Android it is?

sthughes wrote:Crikey can you imagine combining a flaky phone OS with a company known for flaky firmware. I'll be avoiding this one like the plague! I wonder what version of Android it is?

Don't be too critical. Garmin is a decent company when it comes to products. As for flaky this and flaky that, try to develop something better. At the end of the day, softwares are softwares, take time to mature.

I am with Sthughes. Garmin have a long history of treating customers poorly and denying problems. And combing it with Andriod! This makes me think of Mr Clarkson's comment. When the French and Italians combine on food the result is magnificent but with cars it is terrible. What is Garmin thinking?

Honestly, is the result any better than an iPhone in a Lifeproof case? As for the spin on toughness, err see Garmin Fenix, Edge, etc, etc. Their recent fitness or geek products are not tough. Sure the old faithfuls are brilliant for toughness and justifiably respected by their owners that put the time into figuring them out.

Let me see you can get it with Garmin's maps with Mount Fossey being where Black Bluff is, Murchison missing along with many others, and not a peak at the top of a mountain. And being a true hardcore device not a waking track will clutter your display. But plenty of closed 4wd ones will appear.

Sorry Mr Garmin but fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Garmin is batting about fifty/fifty with me. Some great hardware but crummy interface on the 62s. Great idea but terrible toughness of the Fenix and Edge. Brilliant alround device in the Rino 650. All with mega expensive maps that are not for bushwalking but driving around a city.

Shock me Garmjn and develop a device that links onto OSM that can shutdown all but the tracking functions to get the best battery life and then with a touch wake up and dazzle us with its features. Add in the ability to load in raster maps from jpg and calibrate them to lat/long with a screen that can read them. Put it in a case that is properly waterproof along with a decent antenna and you might have me. This device is not it.

Garmin with the advent of GPS equipped phones is in trouble selling consumer goods. What they need to do is stick to bullet proof devices with better screens, maps and interfaces. Most people are using phones rather than car navigators nowadays. So that market is coming to an end.

Cheers

Ent wrote:Garmin with the advent of GPS equipped phones is in trouble selling consumer goods.

Actually, they are doing quite nicely in that space. Their sports based products are selling in huge numbers as opposed to traditional outdoor handheld devices. Given the highly specific functionalities and requirements of sports devices, it's highly likely that smartphones will never take over that market.

GPSGuided wrote:Actually, they are doing quite nicely in that space. Their sports based products are selling in huge numbers as opposed to traditional outdoor handheld devices. Given the highly specific functionalities and requirements of sports devices, it's highly likely that smartphones will never take over that market.

Do you have access to some sales figures? Be interesting to see them is all. What "highly specific functionalities" can an iPhone/Droid/WP8 not accomplish with the right app?

sthughes wrote:Do you have access to some sales figures? Be interesting to see them is all. What "highly specific functionalities" can an iPhone/Droid/WP8 not accomplish with the right app?

http://www.garmin.com/en-US/company/investors

And if you are into cycling and other outdoor fitness activities, you'll soon notice the number of Garmin units around and the large amount of discussions and interest on related forums. It's not a case that smartphone can't accomplish specific functions through specific apps (eg. Non-GPS speed sensor, power sensor interface and others) but a case of being too fragile to carry, let alone too bulky and too short on battery life. Fact is, Garmin is doing very well in this consumer and pro space. Their market share reflects this.

GPSGuided wrote:http://www.garmin.com/en-US/company/investors

And if you are into cycling and other outdoor fitness activities, you'll soon notice the number of Garmin units around and the large amount of discussions and interest on related forums. It's not a case that smartphone can't accomplish specific functions through specific apps (eg. Non-GPS speed sensor, power sensor interface and others) but a case of being too fragile to carry, let alone too bulky and too short on battery life. Fact is, Garmin is doing very well in this consumer and pro space. Their market share reflects this.

Guess it depends how you read it.
Summarising their annual report through my eyes:
Overall revenue and income at a smidgen above the lowest in 5 years.
Marine sector income is down an enormous 50% over 3 years
Fitness sector income is up 20% over 3 years, but running participation is up between 25% & 102% over 5 years (according to Garmin's report), so are they really even keeping market share?
Outdoor sector income is up 3.8%.
Aviation income is up less than 1%.
Automotive income is down a whopping 10%.
So, yes their fitness stuff is selling well, but they are slashing the profit margin to achieve that result.
In comparison (and I know it's a stretch to compare the two) but iPhone revenue is up 220% over the same period! More iPhones are sold in a year than all Garmin devices EVER! And Samsung sell even more smart phones than Apple!
So, are Garmin really doing all that well?

So,

Ent wrote:Garmin with the advent of GPS equipped phones is in trouble selling consumer goods.

doesn't seem too far off the mark, as a company whose revenue is stagnant (at best) is in trouble I would think. I think Garmin know this and that's why they are heading down this track.

What it has really got me wondering is why don't they just stick a 4G chip in there as well and call it the most kick *&%$#! tough outdoors GPS enabled Android phone on the market. If it had that (and assuming it doesn't crash incessantly - which I'm skeptical about) I'd be very tempted by it. Heck any full featured, rubust, waterproof smart phone that runs on AA's and will work well as a GPS has my attention for use when bushwalking.

P.S. I still think Garmin make the best GPSs on the market, if my Rino died today I would only buy another Garmin. Just not this one!

sthughes wrote:

GPSGuided wrote:What it has really got me wondering is why don't they just stick a 4G chip in there as well

Not just a 4G chip..I want them to include an Iridium data chip as well.

.

It's amazing how people can draw such long negative conclusions, all based on a one page news release of a new product.

GPSGuided wrote:It's amazing how people can draw such long negative conclusions, all based on a one page news release of a new product.

Not so amazing. For year after year the major USA car companies released garbage cars with the claim that they are better with quality, performance, etc, etc. The reality was otherwise and more and more people drifted to Japanese cars so one day when near bankrupt they finally realized that the market no longer believed their claims despite the marketing spin, and even serious improvements were ignored by would be buyers. My understanding is a Ford Mondeo and Focus are remarkably good cars but in Europe people spending their hard earned cash buy a BMW 3 series or WV Golf instead. After many years of poor quality control people gave up on Mercedes Benz, so despite the hype that a few tragics hold for the brand most people spend their hard earned money on an Audi instead. Garmin is rapidly losing faith with the market.

It is similar with GPSs. I have no doubt that owners of Garmins 60 series are fiercely loyal due to excellent performance of this model but owners of the sports models such as Garmin 305 Edge have nothing but contempt for their treatment by Garmin. I was rather amazed that in USA marketing circles management consultants were holding that the old 80/20 rule applied to customers complaining and it was cheaper to ignore the twenty percent that received dud models. Sure short term it might make sense but long term that twenty percent do not go quietly into the night and will likely never buy you product again. After a few years that twenty percent becomes larger as each year twenty percent of your customers receive the same poor treatment so your brand name then becomes a liability not an asset.

Garmin's quality control and design of sports models is terrible with the majority of Edge 305 that I personally know of having failed with almost the same fault. The Garmin Fenix appears to be cursed with a design or quality control fault with its seals. I have noticed that the price of Fenix is steadily dropping. Garmin market is likely going to collapse big time once rivals get better/cheaper kit on the market. I have already spotted a $99 GPS watch.

What Garmin is now missing is there is a good market for bullet proof devices, which is strange as this belief built Garmin. Now GPS/phone with series 60 build quality would be a thing of joy. Sure an iPhone in a Lifeproof case is impressive but on Pine Moor at four to five degrees everyone of our iPhones shutdown due to the batteries not been cold resistant. The Garmin Rino 650 and 62S sailed on but the Duracell (Duracrap) lithium batteries went close to going south but the Energizer lithium and Sanyo rechargeables were rock solid. The Fenix watch started to fog up on the inside. The Garmin Rino combines a great GPS with half decent UHF in a solid case with cold resistant battery. So Garmin can do some impressive things if they chose to.

On the OLT I met a few very annoyed Garmin owners that found out that Garmin maps that they paid a fortune for did not even have the OLT!!!!! This walk is considered one of the great walks in Australia, if not the world, and Garmin selling, "bushwalking" maps did not have it! As mentioned, I have found numerous errors in Garmin maps. Sounda glib but call a search and rescue to Fossey Mountain and it will be miles away in the wrong range. Garmin's response. Err. Ignore the customer and do not even respond. Garmin maps are nothing more than the road maps repackaged and sold as bushwalking maps with a random collection of mountains named. Sorry but the game is up Mr or is Mrs or Ms Garmin. Sure cut the price and flog even lower quality maps a bit cheaper but until someone at Garmin listens and acts the brand name Garmin continues to suffer. Oh, and forget thinking that claiming the problem is fixed and ignoring past customers is going to work. Free upgrade to the customers that you chiseled is the only honourable option.

Yet again with this device we see Garmin flogging something new. I for one will not be sucked into buying one as I am almost certain that the software will have numerous problems and also now very dubious if the device will have anywhere near the claimed toughness. Garmin's chickens are coming home to roost. But like a boiled frog or emu I can not see Garmin bothering to act. In my opinion Garmin has five years before it becomes terminally locked into a downward spiral. Which will be a major pity as the underlying design of it map database is impressive and some model worthy of being trusted.

Regards

Passion is running to 6 paragraphs!

Ent wrote:Garmin is rapidly losing faith with the market.

Not something that is shown in their annual reports:

Fiscal Year 2012 Financial Summary:

Total revenue of $2.72 billion, down 2% from $2.76 billion in 2011
Automotive/Mobile segment revenue decreased 6% to $1.49 billion
Outdoor segment revenue increased 11% to $402 million
Fitness segment revenue increased 8% to $322 million
Aviation segment revenue increased 2% to $292 million
Marine segment revenue decreased 6% to $208 million
Asia Pacific (APAC) contributed growth while the Americas and Europe, Middle East and Africa (EMEA) declined:
Americas revenue was $1.51 billion compared to $1.53 billion, down 1%
EMEA revenue was $945 million compared to $983 million, down 4%
APAC revenue was $257 million compared to $248 million, up 4%
Gross margin increased to 53% compared to 49% in 2011
Operating margin increased to 22% from 20% in 2011
Diluted earnings per share (EPS) increased 3% to $2.76 from $2.67 in fiscal year 2011; pro forma EPS increased 4% to $2.85 from $2.73 in fiscal year 2011. (Pro forma EPS excludes the impact of foreign currency transaction gains or losses.)
Effective tax rate increased to 13.1% from 10.8% in fiscal year 2011
Generated over $646 million of free cash flow in 2012 leading to a cash and marketable securities balance of $2.9 billion.

Clearly Ent has his own standards which are at odds with the average punter, but a failure to meet Ent's standards does not mean failure to keep faith with the market. These are tech tools and gadgets and I have always found them to be useful and reliable when operated with mature firmware. I expect that an Android based Garmin will be cast from the same mould but suggest not buying from the first batch for these reasons.

At odds with the average punter? Curios comment. So a case design or seals that allow water ingress is at odds with what an average punter would expect? Must not work in spin.

Garmjn had enjoyed significant growth in revenues over the years and that has stalled to the extent that it is going backwards. This often is the first sign that a hi tech company is in trouble. The higher profits might be due to lower spending on product design and construction. The Fenix is a new product release in the 2012-13 financial year.

As demonstrated their maps have many errors. And the Fenix poor seals as at least one of its problems. Err neither are firmware related. In the case of the Edge 305 it was the poor connector design. Again not firmware related. But I suppose nowadays every computer problem is blamed on a virus rather than hardware issues.

Look forwarded to downloading a firmware update to fix the seals.

Cheers

Reading their annual report for Fiscal 2012 shows revenues in most sectors including outdoor are up in a year when most markets were depressed. I'm not sure how that translates into going backwards, but whatever. They are hardly in a tail spin, and if their sales are increasing that means the average punters are still buying more of their product than they did before.

Clearly, faulty seals and connectors cannot be fixed by firmware updates. Never had those sorts of problems in any of the many Garmin GPS's I've owned or used but then again, I haven't been sucked into a wrist GPS or a bike GPS but I do note that the fitness segment was up 8% so even if these problems effect more than just Ent, they clearly are not effecting enough customers to damage sales. The Edge 305 is a 2006 model, so perhaps whatever problems it had have long blown over.

Agree the Topo maps are not the best. Never use them myself. I've used their street maps for nav overseas and they worked well.

Might I suggest Photohiker that you look at the first quarter result ending 30 March where sales are down a further 4% and outdoor is down as well. The trend appears to be continuing.

If Garmin is serious about keeping up with technology for bushwalking a good place to start is improving their maps and quality issues with their newer outdoor equipment such as the Fenix.

While I accept producing a high pixel count sun readable screen is a challenge they are way behind the mobile phone manufacturers' screens. As with sthughes a mobile phone with AA option and rock solid construction rather than a half whatever IPAQ would be a great start.

Pity they have not embraced the OSM market and instead have only gifted volunteers reverse engineering their mapping database by stealth. As mentioned a few times Garmin's database design from the outside looks to be extraordinary good. The are ignoring over hundred thousand people world wide. How big does a market have to be before they wake up and smell the roses? Same could be said for Magellan.

Programs like Mud Map 2 are starting to gain sufficient vector map capability to start to challenge dedicated GPS maps. Still a long way off but based on past progress it is closer than I would have thought a year ago.

A vector based Tasmap iPhone map set would be a thing of joy. Even better on a IPX7 or better GPS with a decent screen.

Ironically Garmin's biggest threat is not another GPS company but smart phones and even iPads as I am seeing an increasing number of grey nomadmobiles with them integrated into the dash.

Cheers

Ent wrote:Might I suggest Photohiker that you look at the first quarter result ending 30 March where sales are down a further 4% and outdoor is down as well. The trend appears to be continuing.

OMG! You're right Ent!

This $3Bn corporation trading at a 50%+ Gross Margin with nearly $3 Billion in reserves is on its knees due to the faulty seals on the Fenix and a bad connector on the 2006 Edge 305.

I'd suggest that if their sales have come off a few percent, it is more to do with the state of the world economy than a backlash from Fenix owners.

Getting back On Topic:
The Garmin Monterra is now on the US Garmin Site, and it looks like a bigger version of the new Oregon 650.

Monterra: 7.48 x 14.96 x 3.63 cm Screen: 5.06 x 8.93 cm Weight: 331g Lithium/375g with AA's
Oregon 650: 6.1 x 11.4 x 3.3 cm Screen: 3.8 x 6.3 cm Weight: 209.8 g "with batteries"

The ability to add apps via Google Play is a double edged sword, but on the plus side, this could make it a really neat option. I'll wait for the mature firmware version.

Monterra with a 4" screen is effectively a replacement for their Montana series while the 650 is a replacement for the 550.

As for those complaining about the Fenix, I note that Aldi is pushing out a $99.99 version this Sat 6 July. Who is going to bite?
https://www.aldi.com.au/en/special-buys ... asurement/

GPSGuided wrote:Monterra with a 4" screen is effectively a replacement for their Montana series while the 650 is a replacement for the 550.

Agree. My point was that the case design is a complete change from the prior series.

photohiker wrote:Agree. My point was that the case design is a complete change from the prior series.

Understood.