Bushwalk Australia

Hey guys,

Probably going to buy an iPhone 6 plus soon. Will get a case too to keep it safe. I would want it to be my GPS unit (with Mapout or similar), camera, music player, phone etc. GPS obviously being the most crucial here.

I'd just to know what others' experiences were:

1) How has it functioned as a GPS?
2) What GPS software do you prefer?
3) What protective case do you recommend? (I thought maybe a Lifeproof Fre).
4) How has your iPhone coped in weather extremes? (I hear they shut down in <0 and >35 degrees and you can do permanent damage to them even when they're 'off' in <-20 and >45). I also hear with hot conditions it may not cope using GPS even at under 35 degrees.
5) Have you used it above 3000m? Did it still function - I read they don't.
6) If I get one I'll probably also pair it with 2 batteries for recharging (a solar and battery pack one - as suggested on Outdoorgearlab). Have you any negative issues with this?

Thanks,
Suz

Have you been reading Android forums?

GPS Kit is the best GPS app I've found and it is truly excellent, but there are many other good ones. There is a thread here somewhere where we have discussed the best mapping apps.
A ziplock bag is sufficient for me. You can buy a waterproof pouch on eBay for just a few bucks. Get the standard Apple silicone case for basic protection.
Worth having is an iWerkz folding keyboard - around $40 on Amazon.

Don't worry about temp. Just don't leave it on the dash of your car on a hot day.

My wife has emailed me from Namche Bazaar and higher.

I have Anker Zolo for backup, but the internal battery will last a long time if you only power it up when needed.

Edited on my iPhone 6 Plus.

Btw - the camera on the iPhone 6 Plus is very, very good.

Suz wrote:3) What protective case do you recommend? (I thought maybe a Lifeproof Fre).

I find a ziplock bag works just fine for protection against water and vapour. I also use a ziplock back for carrying my phone and wallet in an SPI belt when running home in all sorts of weather and I've never had a problem.

For protection against bumps, drops, and scratches, a Lifeproof case is perfect. I have not used one on an iPhone, but used one on an iPad in very demanding environments.

Suz wrote:4) How has your iPhone coped in weather extremes? (I hear they shut down in <0 and >35 degrees and you can do permanent damage to them even when they're 'off' in <-20 and >45). I also hear with hot conditions it may not cope using GPS even at under 35 degrees.

At the top end of the range, don't leave a smartphone in prolonged direct sunlight. If you are carrying it in your pack or a pocket, it will be fine. They definitely work well above 35 degrees.

At the lower end, iPhones work below zero. The lower temperatures will deplete the battery quicker, but this happens to all batteries. Keep the phone in your pocket to keep it warmer.

Suz wrote:5) Have you used it above 3000m? Did it still function - I read they don't.

There is no reason for them not to work above 3000m. Mine has worked just fine above 5000m.

If you want to test this, do so on an aeroplane (obviously considering device use restrictions, but GPS use is fine to my knowledge). Cruising altitude is around 10,000m (over 30,000 feet) (higher than Everest) and the cabin pressure is equal to approximately that of 1800m. Get a satellite fix before take-off as getting a fix at over 700km/h may prove difficult.

Suz wrote:6) If I get one I'll probably also pair it with 2 batteries for recharging (a solar and battery pack one - as suggested on Outdoorgearlab). Have you any negative issues with this?

Good charging solution. Another idea, is a kinetic charger such as http://www.getampy.com*, although I must point out that I have not tried this type of device (but am keen to do so). Although less efficient at gaining a charge, they are not affected by cloud or shade like a solar charger, and with a full mains charge at the start of a walk they should give enough power for my intended use (although using a phone as a GPS may be too demanding). Food for thought.


* No commercial interest in this product or business

Check out Motion-X GPS for your mapping needs on iOS devices. If you only need Tassie maps, then Maps-n-Trax is the go.

Have a 6 myself and I'd say that I don't like to use it for continuous day long GPS track logging. It drains too much of the battery and certainly wouldn't be desirable for multiday walks. I like to keep my iPhone for spot checks of location and its primary communication functions. Use a dedicated handheld GPSr for track logging and all-day-on demands.

For the case, I just use a soft protective case and keep the phone in my pants pocket. Never had any issues though I rarely break my equipments. The iPhone is not waterproof but it has handled common rain/water splashes without issues. Just don't dunk it. If you are rough and expect some dunkings, then sure, get one of the highly rugged cases.

If GPS functionality is so important, why not get a dedicated GPS?

Suz there is another thread a bit further down that has more info on iPhone apps viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19366

Not used the 6 but an iPhone 5 worked fine in Nepal at 5300m.

For waterproofing I have a few of the cheap aquapac style cases that have worked well in the rain.

For charging it really depends on how long you are away for and how many recharges you need. Shorter trips you might get away with a larger >16000mAh power pack. My experience with using solar panels I mentioned before in this post: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18151#p246900. Note that to recharge with solar optimally can still take quite a long time. More again if you have cloudy days or are walking under canopy.

There's recent talk out there that some have used iPhones on the summit of Mt Everest after a Nepal mobile carrier built a station at base camp.

Strider wrote:If GPS functionality is so important, why not get a dedicated GPS?

I suppose to save on the additional weight and cost of a dedicated GPS. Not buying one kinda also justifies splashing out for a new iPhone I guess too. I mean if GPS on iPhone is 'good enough', then why have a dedicated GPS? I like to own the least amount of things possible and optimise the things I do have. There is probably no rational explanation for this, it's just a facet of my personality. I feel burdened by possessions. The less, the better.

From everyone's responses it is sounding promising. If the GPS won't die on me in hot or cold conditions or at high altitude, then it is still a very safe option. That was worrying me since I read that today, glad that you have all had positive experiences tho. Thanks all, for your help here

I will look at the GPS app thread then too.

That ampy product looks cool if it does work - but I'd be a little sceptical. I know that those hand crank chargers are notorious for not working, also I read that for a product (like a smartphone) to charge properly they need the right amount of power flow (I forget the technical terms - amps, Hz, volts - whatever is correct i don't know), it is apparently not just the amount of power the external battery can store and deliver but also the way/rate it transfers power from the battery to the end receiver that matters. Can't remember where I read this helpful info - probably on this forum

Just bring external battery if you are going to depend on an iPhone for anything more than a half day walk. You want good juice left for calls and others at the end of the walk.

The weight of an iPhone and all the charging paraphernalia will far surpass that of a standalone GPS with two sets of Eneloops. My Etrex 20 weighs 152g with batteries. It is also fully waterproof.

But you'll still need a phone... So an iPhone plus an external battery ican still be pretty competitive in terms of weight.

Strider wrote:The weight of an iPhone and all the charging paraphernalia will far surpass that of a standalone GPS with two sets of Eneloops. My Etrex 20 weighs 152g with batteries. It is also fully waterproof.

It may well weigh more overall, but it remains that I would take a phone with me regardless. If not upgrading to the 6 plus, I would take my 4s at 137gm. It would also need charging from time to time as well (and hence require external batteries). The phone can act as GPS, phone, camera, music etc., the GPS cannot multifunction like this, so they are not interchangeable. I do not mean that you are suggesting they are interchangeable, just that if the iPhone has GPS apps that are a decent substitution for a standalone GPS, well then... the only reason to consider one in that case, is the battery life of the phone (easily sucked dry by GPS mapping). So if I do not need a GPS in addition to the phone, its weight and cost is superfluous. Some sort of phone is coming with me on trail no matter what. Therefore, I think that if I can find a great combo of external batteries for the iPhone 6 plus then, judging by commentary here, I might get away with just an iPhone.

Everyone is different I suppose and I can see how your Extrex works for you, but I want to upgrade phones anyway (and the iPhone 6 plus camera should be excellent on trail for a pleb photographer like me who doesn't need (or know how to use) an SLR), so my main query here has been whether I can get the iPhone to do pretty much everything tech wise for me, (except for Kindleness and PLBness) and whether it can cope with on trail conditions. It seems like it can. Its abilities as a GPS means basically one less thing to shell out for or carry.

An iPhone 6 Plus has a 2,915 mAh battery. A 1000mAh Ampy will be next to useless.
A 12,000mAh Anker Zolo will charge an iPhone 6 Plus four times.

GPSGuided wrote:But you'll still need a phone... So an iPhone plus an external battery ican still be pretty competitive in terms of weight.

I wish I was concise.

RonK wrote:An iPhone 6 Plus has a 2,915 mAh battery. A 1000mAh Ampy will be next to useless.
A 12,000mAh Anker Zolo will charge an iPhone 6 Plus four times.

I will get big power like this!

All good discussion points. At this stage, my suggestion is to try it all out before locking into a particular setup. You can certainly test the app/s on you 4S and the 6 Plus will just be that much nicer. One hassle with the iPhone apps is that only some will allow caching of the mapping data. You'll need to do that before the trip, probably OSM. None will be able to use Garmin maps while some can use govt maps. Check out Avenza PDF Map app as it can import eTopo from NSW govt's LPI ie. Our local NSW topo maps.

I think I posted somewhere earlier, the smartphone GPS (chips and antennas) are getting better and can be as good as dedicated devices. Certainly, in some cases they could almost be superior than older models of dedicated GPS devices.

I've compared my various GPS devices before, with each other, and with GPS enabled smartphones and PDAs/tablets. For the phones, I made sure either A-GPS was turned off or the sim card removed, and the logging intervals for all software were as close as possible to each other, and all units were strapped to a cardboard sheet and put in the top pocket of a backpack. I haven't done the tests for a while though, so the last test I think was with an iPhone 4.

Here is a previous thread with a pic of one of the walks I did comparing the tracks logged with a Garmin Etrex 30 vs Nokia's GPS, in real world conditions, taking a walk in the Dandenongs. viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18850#p256798

I should do this again with newer smartphones and see how they compare.

Upshot is that the iPhone should work and be reasonably accurate, but iPhones/smartphones or dedicated GPS unit should not be your only method of navigation. You should get some good map navigation skills behind you as well. But map skills aside, I can tell you in foggy conditions a GPS is fantastic to have.

For the external battery, you could look at a reasonably priced good quality unit like this one: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19706 It should charge the iPhone 6 5 times or more, the iPhone 6 plus has a bigger battery, so maybe slightly fewer charge times. You'll pay a weight penalty for the larger power pack, the Xiaomi isn't the lightest. There are some newer ones that use a flat pack lithium battery, but they are currently a bit more expensive.

I've done my walking with an iPhone as my GPS for about two years now, using memory maps. It works great. Remember to switch it to airplane mode when not using it and I can do a three day walk using it as a navigation aid and my Camera. Certainly saves weight and I can do notes and listen to music. Due to some torch issues it has also been my torch, but I wouldn't recommend that!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks everyone I have felt encouraged enough by your replies to buy an iPhone 6 plus (it's on its way). I didn't try downloading onto my 4s as I still have a very old version of IOS on there - and can't download much on it. Maybe I will buy several different GPS apps mentioned here - they are fairly cheap - $5 on average, and see which I like best.

Thanks keithy also for the reference to the external battery pack thread.

I will get some maps for my trips too I suppose - in case the phone fails on me - paper maps are expensive tho and add bulk to the ol' pack. If you have a GPS/phone - what is the scale ratio for a paper map that one should have? I assume you don't need 1:25K - but should I have 1:50k or 1:100k as back up? I'm going to do the AAWT - that's like 25 maps or something in 1:25k - I don't wanna pay for or carry that many maps.

I'm thinking you could save weight of paper maps by splitting them up and put them with your food drops. And leave previous section maps at your food drop.

Suz wrote:I didn't try downloading onto my 4s as I still have a very old version of IOS on there - and can't download much on it. Maybe I will buy several different GPS apps mentioned here - they are fairly cheap - $5 on average, and see which I like best.

Suz, iOS upgrade is free and hassle free. Just click the button and it'll take you to the latest version that's compatible with your 4S (do it under wifi). Then, you'll have time to play with all the latest apps. Once the app is purchased, you can install on as many devices as you want, as long as they are on the same Apple ID account. No need to wait for your 6 Plus. The only reason why you won't do it is if you don't have enough storage space on your 4S.

warnesy wrote:I will get some maps for my trips too I suppose - in case the phone fails on me - paper maps are expensive tho and add bulk to the ol' pack. If you have a GPS/phone - what is the scale ratio for a paper map that one should have? I assume you don't need 1:25K - but should I have 1:50k or 1:100k as back up? I'm going to do the AAWT - that's like 25 maps or something in 1:25k - I don't wanna pay for or carry that many maps.

Suz - I sent these links to someone else via PM, but these guys uploaded GPX (and KML) files for the AAWT here http://www.johnevans.id.au/Pages/KC/KCAAWT.html

GPX files can be used as a route on Garmin handhelds, but if you use an app that can view GPX files (https://itunes.apple.com/au/app/gps-hik ... 10494?mt=8 for example) you can follow the trail with your phone.

On the accuracy side, I have yet to test out an iPhone 5 or 6, but I'm sure they have improved since the iphone 4 that I tested.

I found a link I'd saved when I was doing my side by side testing of my GPS devices vs old and new smartphones/tablets at the time. http://blog.oplopanax.ca/2012/11/measur ... -accuracy/ and I see the clever fellow has now written a tool to test out the GPS's accuracy without having to do it manually http://gpserror.azurewebsites.net/. When I get some time I will do some GPS file logs to see how my newer phones/tablets compare with my Garmin handhelds.

On the battery pack, I'm heading to Singapore again, and am picking one of those Xiaomi 16000mAh from the Mi Store in Singapore for another Bushwalk forum member from Melbourne for around about $33. If you were in Melbourne as well, I'd offer to pick one up for you.

I haven't read the entire thread but I use an iPhone 6 when bushwalking.

I can't use it as a dedicated GPS though because it uses too much battery power to have the gps function running all the time. However I do use it as a GPS to get positioning on a certain map at times, and then I turn the gps on it off once I have established my position.

I use a dedicated GPS for dropping bread crumbs for the entire duration of my walk. But my dedicated GPS is limited to the type of maps I can use...hence I use the iPhone with Maps-n-Tax on it. Maps-ntrax allows me to put the Tas Gov maps into and save sections for offline use. My garmin gps doesn't allow this luxury.

So if thats not as clear as mud, I only use the iPhones GPS function briefly when needed.

I use one of these for charging the iPhone, they are fantastic. viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19706

On a recent 6 day walk I used my phone exclusively for photos and various other functions (wifi to GoPro etc) and I hardly used 25% of my battery pack over the entire 6 days! The iPhone 6 battery is great if you know what to turn off to conserve it.

I also bought one of those imitation life proof cases to protect my phone but in future I am going to take the clear plastic camera cover section out of it because I feel it effected the photo quality. I didn't need a fully water proof cover, just a bit of sprinkle protection.

weeds wrote:I'm thinking you could save weight of paper maps by splitting them up and put them with your food drops. And leave previous section maps at your food drop.

I probably could but doesn't save me the cost of the things tho. Still that might have to be the way I go.

GPS maybe I'll do it then - I never upgraded my IOS since level 5 as I heard so many bad things about level 6 and up but now that I have a new phone coming it doesn't matter so much.

Thanks Keithy for all the info. The GPX files are useful, NNW has offered me hers too so I could have a suite of the things by the time I set off That comparison blog is good - at least the error on the phone is only about 35mtrs - not too bad, but I suppose it could be if you're off track. It is a shame I am not in Melb re: the battery.

Thanks Dan, how do you find the accuracy of the GPS on your 6? It would actually be much cheaper for me to get an extra battery than buy a GPS. Plus it could also charge my other devices (head torch and kindle) when needed.

Maybe I don't need a super duper case for the phone - but I'm worried about dropping/submerging/bending it. Can't seem to find a wholly positively reviewed one tho - the guy at Mobile Reviews Eh likes the Lifeproof Nuud but many other users hate the thing. I have heard they do interfere with the camera, phone call quality etc. I was kinda wondering if I should get a lower grade (cheaper one) like a Puregear Dualtek Extreme or something. I like to over research and debate things in my little head it seems.

Don't believe everything you read on some of those review sites. Unless there's a consistent opinion or one that's logical, they are most likely to be just a subjective opinion. How much protection one needs from a phone case really depends on the type of person you are. Some who are very careful, no case is needed even in a harsh environment. Others require the toughest and bulkiest protection for general home and urban use. You know what level of protection your equipment needs and choose accordingly.

Suz wrote:

weeds wrote:
Thanks Dan, how do you find the accuracy of the GPS on your 6? It would actually be much cheaper for me to get an extra battery than buy a GPS. Plus it could also charge my other devices (head torch and kindle) when needed.

Maybe I don't need a super duper case for the phone - but I'm worried about dropping/submerging/bending it. Can't seem to find a wholly positively reviewed one tho - the guy at Mobile Reviews Eh likes the Lifeproof Nuud but many other users hate the thing. I have heard they do interfere with the camera, phone call quality etc. I was kinda wondering if I should get a lower grade (cheaper one) like a Puregear Dualtek Extreme or something. I like to over research and debate things in my little head it seems.

Um, Ive never really tested the accuracy but Id say from memory it would have had me positioned pretty close to my actual location (within a few metres) if thats what you mean?

Just a heads up on the power banks, they are heavy. Well at least if they contain a significant amount of juice they are heavy. Mine weighs around 400g but its more than ill ever need. If I used my iPhone with the GPS running maps-n-trax all day I didn't think the battery would last the day. I would be recharging the phone daily from dead flat. Which is fine as my power bank will do that up to 6 times but I prefer to carry my little garmin, it weighs very little.

Just noticed ShoppingSquare has stocks of Xiaomi USB power packs with 5000, 10400, 16000mAh options on offer. Take note that they have two different prices for the same product in their listing. P&H seemed to be most reasonable.
http://www.shoppingsquare.com.au/search ... er&x=0&y=0

On the issue of iPhone GPS accuracy. I have compared some parallel track logs b/n my old iPhone 5/5S and my Garmin Oregon 450/650 in the past. Essentially, both consumer level units drift to an extent (as expected) but the tracks are not qualitatively different in my eyes. With the addition of a barometric sensor and further generational improvements in the 6, I expect it to again make incremental improvements. Found someone who did a more detailed comparison on the net and I think one can take comfort in terms of the unit's accuracy. So, I think accuracy is not the issue here but reception. Given the design of these units, without a massive antenna, they clearly won't perform as well in a forest, hidden within one's pack or in a canyon. Out in open ground and exposed to the sky, they can be as good as one needs.
http://n8henrie.com/2014/09/how-accurat ... phone-gps/

Someone did a barometer/altitude test on the iPhone 6 too.
http://www.extremestorms.com/iphone_6_barometer.htm

ah there were some consistent complaints on the nuud case GPS guided. shame as it looks very good. I am quite careful with things but it is always possible to drop something when you're tired and in the dark - and i don't want to break $1400 item when I could protect it with $50-100 case. Cool about the 6 plus' on the barometer and glad to hear the GPS is relatively accurate.

Hadn't realised that the Xiaomi's were so heavy. Maybe getting 2 of them is not a good solution. Am passing through Singapore myself later this year but probably won't have time to make a purchase in transit for a sweet deal on a xiaomi. Also hadn't thought about reception in canyons/forests and GPS sensitivity etc. I think I will try out the iPhone as a GPS unit in Sweden as the plains are very wide and see how I go. Will experiment and think! Can always get a GPS later on if the iPhone doesn't hold up.

Should point out that the average handheld GPS units have similar antenna design in a smartphone, so there's really not that much difference to an average consumer GPS.

GPSGuided wrote:Should point out that the average handheld GPS units have similar antenna design in a smartphone, so there's really not that much difference to an average consumer GPS.

Only thing is that the antenna is quite a bit smaller in smartphones. This is the combined Wifi/GPS antenna in an iPhone 6 for example. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+6+P ... ment/29806 (it's the one in Step 25).

Compare that with the ceramic patch antenna used in the eTrex series http://goughlui.com/2014/05/24/quick-re ... dheld-gps/ . A similar ceramic patch antenna is used in my Oregon 600.

This post over at GPSAustralia shows what a quad helix antenna looks like http://www.gpsaustralia.net/forums/show ... hp?t=18049 if you have a Garmin with the protruding antenna. The pic isn't of the Garmin quad helix, but it's similar.

The signal strength is related to the aperture which is is affected by the antenna size.

This is not to say that more modern smartphones haven't got better antennas. I recently bought a cheapie Huawei Android smartphone to use a travel phone when I go overseas as my Sony spare phone has developed some issues. The GPS in the Huawei phone is getting about 3m accuracy (using the GPS Test app), and I can get a satellite lock within 1 minute - using no data or wifi. I am currently testing this phone out so I don't have a simcard in it but the GPS chip seems to be pretty good. When I get some time, I'll test it out against my Garmin handhelds. My older Sony Xperia was bought around 2012/2013 used to take up to 5-10 minutes to get a GPS lock without a simcard or without using AGPS.

Suz - I'm jealous of your Swedish trip. I did some day hikes in Norway and some longer walks in Iceland when I went last year, but didn't do any hiking in Sweden. I plan to go back to that neck of the woods and do some longer trails.