Bushwalk Australia

Hey all,
Started bushwalking and prospecting lately and have looked at a personal gps as Garmin etc.
New to all this gps stuff but I have downloaded a free app called Osmand with free offline maps and lots of features.
I just called BCF and they sell a Garmin Etrex 20 for $249 and a further $200 odd for maps.
I know the battery life of a mobile would not last as long but if you just use it to check position every 5 mins or so that won't worry e too much.

Osmand lets you input gps coordinates and navigate to that position.

Osmand tracks your path and gives you a return route.

I also downloaded another app called gps status.

This app gives you a digital compas, gps coordinates, altitude, remaining battery, pitch and roll, lux, last fix time, acceleration, speed.

With the 2 of these on my mobile I was wondering what else I would need.

The other thing I would like is back to base so someone can monitor my position in case of emergency but have been told this is only available with military applications.

I know you can track mobiles but this only works when you have reception and a lot of the places I go don't have this.

So wondering about your thoughts.

Greg

It is entirely possible, if you understand the limitations.

To me it comes down to these:

• Robustness (waterproof/impact resistance)
• Map availability (topo usually)
• GPS acquisition speed/Accuracy
• Battery life

I've been using various mobile GPS solutions alongside Garmin handhelds for almost 15 years, from a Palm Pilot with external GPS and software, and was using an Asus Windows Mobile 6 device running GPSTuner software and custom topo maps before going on to a Nokia Symbian phone with GPS and custom topo software and now to Android tablets and phones with GPS. With my old Asus WM6 device, I bought 6 extra batteries and would get around 6 hours of GPS use (tracking with screen on only when needed), and found this was ok for shorter walks. Back then external powerbanks weren't readily available.

I posted the same reply there viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18850#p256798 and a few years ago on another forum http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-re ... 939430&#r9

But the newer chipsets and receivers are amazingly quick in satellite acquisition and data downloads. I usually test the GPS chip without simcards inserted in devices, and no wifi connections. With newer phones, I've found that with no wifi and no sim card, the GPS acquisition can be as quick as my Garmin handhelds. I've not completed the accuracy tests yet, but will do a test on my newer phone/tablets chips accuracy and upload it to this website http://gpserror.azurewebsites.net/ and compare them with my Garmin handhelds.

There are a few good apps out there for both iPhone and Android for navigation. Most of the previous discussion has been on iPhone and it's capability as a GPS like these for example:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20044
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20602
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19366
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=14070

And there are a few apps out there that can now read geo-pdfs like:

http://www.avenza.com/pdf-maps

So you can download geo-referenced PDF files and used them to navigate without having to create custom topo maps.

If you want a "return to base" transmission, you really should look into PLBs. You shouldn't rely on mobile phones for coverage in emergencies.

BTW, if you go with the Garmin eTrex 20, note that the eTrex 20x is out now, so the 20 should be cheaper than the $249 quoted. And you don't need the $200 for maps. As I posted here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15200#p269919 andrewp has made some OSM maps with contour overlays that are pretty good. I've not checked out the QLD maps yet, but the Vic/Tas maps are great.

What the app doesn't give you is a battery life that lasts more than an hour or two. Handheld GPS units are far from being made redundant by smartphones.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

All depends on how you bushwalk and what GPS needs you have.

On top of what Keithy pointed out, I would further point out that the GPS is a critical piece of equipment as for one's map and compass, a life saving piece of equipment that one does not want to be compromised on. I protect and save the battery on the smartphone for its communication function while the dedicated GPS unit gets exposed to the elements without any worry.

I have both Etrex 20 and a super dependable spare Etrex 'H' in as well plus the iPhone!

Just bought a Morphie Juice Plus battery case for the iPhone 4s (2000 mAh) to double the phones life so Osmand power drain is not an issue for me, yet...

Zone-5 wrote:Just bought a Morphie Juice Plus battery case for the iPhone 4s (2000 mAh) to double the phones life so Osmand power drain is not an issue for me, yet...

It's a high cost solution for the convenience. Given how smartphone models change shape, port/button positions and specs, it'd be an every 2 years repeating purchase to buy these battery cases. Further, these accessories don't come out at the same time as when new smartphones come out, there may be a continuity issue at phone update time. Personally prefer an external battery pack and just charge through a cable as needed.

Strider wrote:What the app doesn't give you is a battery life that lasts more than an hour or two. Handheld GPS units are far from being made redundant by smartphones.

Strider - I think this depends on your phone. My old Nokia N52 could do with around 5 hours GPS tracking (although its GPS chip was average) and my new cheapie Huawei Android travel phone I've tested doing around 5-6 hours with GPS running using Here Maps and in-car voice navigation without simcard or wifi but with the screen on the whole time.

I'll give it a test on on one of my walks, but I'd be surprised if it couldn't do more than the 5-6 hours I managed with GPS and screen on. If I can work out how to keep the GPS logging but with screen off I'll test it out. The Huawei also has a replaceable battery.

I'm still a big Garmin handheld fan, but I think phones are a more viable option these days.

Actually decided to run my cheap Huawei phone this arvo for a quick test. Left it for running the GPS tracker and logger app and left it on outside (it is set for screen off but continue to log the GPS). I turned the screen on about 10 times during the first hour emulating how I would use a Garmin handheld on the trail and :

• 1hr 08 minutes battery from 70% to 66%.
• 2hr 20 minutes (screen on 3-4 times) battery from 66% to 61%.
• 2hr 48 minutes from 61%-58%

So I reckon under the same conditions that I normally use my Garmin Handhelds (GPS on and recording in background with screen display off, and occasional screen checks to see maps), the phone should run the GPS for at least 16-20 hours while recording a GPX track file.

I'm also running my Android tablet next to it. The tablet has a larger battery, but I'm doing it to get the GPX file to test check the accuracy of the GPS chipset.

I've not used OSMand to do this yet, I'm using Sports Tracker and its annoying interface to upload to the website and then being able to download a GPX, but I'll do the test with OSMand and Oruxmaps as well. I read that someone else using OSMand similarly gets around 20 hours logging GPX tracks on hikes as well.

I'll do a proper comparison recording GPX files outdoors in clear sky soon, with my Android phones/tablets and Garmin handhelds. I hadn't thought to test for battery life, but I should do that too.

GPSGuided - is that your Sydney data I see on http://gpserror.azurewebsites.net/ ? If that's so did you test the iPhone 6 without a sim card or with data off? The accuracy stats are pretty good if it is without data. I've got my batch of GPX files, but haven't had a good one done in a clear location. All mine have been in town with buildings around so I wanted a good sample to test my handhelds accuracy.

Which is fine if you only do daywalks or the occasional one night trip. Except that a GPS is still way more rugged and weatherproof than a phone. It doesn't need a special case to be protected, or any special care.

Strider will need to change the battery (by 3rd party) or update to the latest iPhone. I can run my Motion-X app to record track log for close to half a day with juice to spare on an iPhone 6. Don't like doing it as I care to save the charge for calls.

NNW, yes, they are my contributions (iPhone 6 and Oregon 650). Unfortunately don't take too much notice of my iPhone 6 data as I have yet to find an app that would repeatedly log data points when the unit is stationary. It would seem it's a power saving feature of some form, whether from iOS or routinely used by all the app developers I tried. As such, I couldn't really generate a circle of error. Otherwise yes, the SIM was removed from the phone with wifi/BT switched off for that sampling. The location readout was spot on, as one would expect from the technology these days under open sky.

north-north-west wrote:Except that a GPS is still way more rugged and weatherproof than a phone. It doesn't need a special case to be protected, or any special care.

Hardier than most phones agreed. But if you open a few GPS units up and have a look inside, it's really not that much different than if a manufacturer made a ruggedised phone.

For example, these are older model eTrex and Vista units.




They really look like phones, and the extra protection is really just slightly thicker plastic.

And for the unlucky, there are broken screens from drops and scrapes like:

(http://www.nittanyturkey.com/2014/09/10 ... easy-hike/)
(http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index. ... 48&st=1250)

I've just read on one of the GPS forums I visit that someone else has a broken Oregon 600 display, and trying to get replacement parts. So these things can happen even to rugged dedicated GPS units without cases.

I don't baby my units, but always have two points of contact to it with a lanyard secured to my pack, even when I'm using the belt clip or a case attached to my pack strap. I've been clumsy in the past, and carelessness led to a dropped and scratched eTrex.

Nowadays, If I have the GPS clipped to my harness while walking, and have to scramble or climb up rocks, I stow the GPS in a case with the screen side facing in. Even though some people have done some incredible torture tests on their GPS devices (and smartphones) I'll rather err on the side of caution - like my DIY bumper cases for it.

On the battery front, if you get around 20 hours from a phone using GPS, I'd say it's doing pretty good. My Oregon gets only around 12 hours on 2xAAs, meaning I need spares for a 5 day hike or I'd bring a solar charger or a USB battery bank and a charger or charge the AAs inside the Oregon directly. If I used the phone, I could just use the battery bank to recharge. Suz who posted about the iPhone 6 in one of the links above is using her iPhone somewhere in Scandinavia now on a few longer walks. It will be interesting to hear how she goes with it when she's back.

I'm still a big fan of Garmin, but it is entirely possible to use the newer phones as a GPS. Even more so when some manufacturers are making ruggedised smart phones like the Samsung S6 Active, or older Motorola Defy or http://ruggear.com.au/about-ruggear/ or Sonim XP7 https://images.indiegogo.com/file_attac ... 1416961992

Here's a review of the Samsung S6 active with clever waterproofed ports so it can still be rated IPX 68 waterproof without requiring port covers like the Sony Z3s need.

Also forgot to mention, for the OP, I also use Orux Maps on Android, http://www.oruxmaps.com/index_en.html and it can also read some Garmin format img files.

keithy wrote:Also forgot to mention, for the OP, I also use Orux Maps on Android, http://www.oruxmaps.com/index_en.html and it can also read some Garmin format img files.

But it needs to make a raster copy of the data so it users up a large amount of storage space.

GPSGuided wrote:the SIM was removed from the phone with wifi/BT switched off for that sampling.

I think I've posted it before, but that is no longer necessary.
With the current iOS, cell and wifi is disabled but GPS remains active in airplane mode.

icefest wrote:But it needs to make a raster copy of the data so it users up a large amount of storage space.

Does it? I wasn't aware. I just put the Iceland img file from here on an SD card, and it worked fine. http://www.openfietsmap.nl/installation ... d/oruxmaps

It is not as pretty as it renders on the Garmins, with some roads/trails are a bit large, but it worked ok.

It doesn't seem to work with all maps created by Mapsource, or with Garmin licensed maps, but other topo imgs load ok, but I've mostly only ever tested small maps with it.

I know that the online sources such as Google Maps are in a raster format, but I don't think it re-renders and converts img files to raster before displaying.

RonK wrote:I think I've posted it before, but that is no longer necessary.
With the current iOS, cell and wifi is disabled but GPS remains active in airplane mode.

Thanks for the reminder RonK. I think we discussed this in that earlier thread. I took the SIM card out in this case just to be 100% sure. In the end it didn't particularly matter as whatever filtering in the iPhone basically stopped the recording of repeating data logs when the device remained stationary.

icefest wrote:But it needs to make a raster copy of the data so it users up a large amount of storage space.

I tested Oruxmaps with andrewa's OSM VIC maps with contour overlays.

I have the cache size left as the default 128Mb, and I was checking the size of free space on my SDcard and on device while Oruxmaps was open, and there was no visible reduction in disk space.

Andrew's OSM VIC maps are around 400mb or so on my 64Gb microSD card on my tablet, the default cache size doesn't really have an impact. I reduced the cache size down, and there was no visible speed difference in scrollling maps.

Here are some screenshots of it running, at different zoom levels, and one with a GPX trail loaded.


These were taken on a 7" tablet running Android 4.4.0. The phone has it running in portrait mode, and has less area viewable.

It is definitely not as nicely rendered as on the Garmin, and I had the font size at a ridiculous default size 7. I find 12 or 15 much easier to read on the tablet.

I think it's quite a viable option.

Thanks Keithy, happy to be proved wrong.


I think I'd be more tempted to run it on a tablet for route planning though - that's where the big screen really shines.

I wanted to buy a GPS but I already have a Note 4 with a Zerolemon case so I figure it makes for a decent substitute. It's a 10000mah battery and a protective rubberized case (and a glass screen protector) with a hard plastic frame. I have been using the case for about 6 months so the bulk of it doesn't bother me. The bonus of the massive battery is that my phone now doubles as a secondary light. It's not waterproof but I was walking during some showers over the weekend and I just put it in a zip lock bag which retards the touch screen a little bit but it's still usable.

While I always carry printed topo maps that I get from qtopo, I haven't had to look at them since downloading Wikiloc and BackCountry Navigator. I use the maps at home to plan my trip and the put the way points in the GPS. The Wikiloc app is great because people can share their routes but it's not 100% stable which is why I have the Backcountry app as well.

So far so good for me!



Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

icefest wrote:I think I'd be more tempted to run it on a tablet for route planning though - that's where the big screen really shines.

That's what I had intended to as well - preplan a trip without a PC and using the tablet only to create a GPX file on the tablet and copy the gpx file to my Garmin Oregon.

But I've come up to a stumbling block.

I can copy the GPX file to the microSD card using an OTG cable and a card reader, but when the card is back in the Garmin, it does not see the GPX files. From what I can work out, it looks like when there are gpx files in the internal memory, these take preference over gpx files on the microsd. The tablet doesn't recognise the Garmin when connected to it via the OTG cable.

What folder did you put the gpx in? You need to get the right one.

icefest wrote:What folder did you put the gpx in? You need to get the right one.

Yup. \Garmin\gpx.

Not to go too off topic, but this is what I've found out on my Garmins. If there are gpx files on the device, it seems to ignore the gpx files on the SDcard. If you delete the gpx files on the device, the gpx files on the sdcard in the \Garmin\gpx directory appear.

I tried someone else's suggestion of creating a \Garmin\gpx\current directory on the microSD card as well, but the same behaviour occurs once you have a gpx file (like the current track saved to the device).

I can't find a way to make the saved gpx files save to the external memory card by default instead of saving to device memory.

Anyway, back on topic, I tried using Oruxmaps with the OSM-VIC maps for an offline walk tonight, and it seemed to work nicely. I didn't know that oruxmaps has the ability to work with my bluetooth HRM as well, so I might test that out soon.

I've been having great success with OSMand. It has got to the point where I get back from a trip and realise that I haven't looked at my paper maps at all.

The offline vector maps are fantastic. They are compact, and I have map data for a dozen countries on my phone. OSMand gives lots of configurability as to what features to display at various zoom levels. For example, I have switched on the display of toilets - it even shows the back-country toilet at Cooyoyo Campsite in the Budawangs!

The maps are fully routable, with separate modes for walk, bike and car. Walk routing relies on the underlying map data being precise (for example, track junctions sharing a true common point) and it's not really usable in the Blue Mountains yet, until the OSM data is cleaned up a bit more. But I have used OSMand's walk-routing very successfully in Spain to route-find along ancient donkey trails.

The app can use the phone's compass to automatically orient the map, which is quite a nifty trick, but I usually use it with north at the top. I record my journey as a GPX track, which is overlaid on the map, and I find that is enough for me to mentally orient myself no matter which way I have the phone pointing.

At the end of each walk I usually find something that I can add or improve on Open Street Map. So, like Wikipedia, the maps keep getting better and better, because (on average) each user's edits are more likely to improve than to worsen the map.

I get at least ten hours battery life while recording a GPX track and occasionally consulting the map (and also using the phone to take photos), provided I switch to flight mode when I don't need phone or mobile data.

OSMand can also access the NSW Topo SIX maps. These are raster maps of course, with all of the disadvantages that entails, however their contours and cliff lines are better than those currently available for OSMand. The SIX maps are online maps, but OSMand can be made to cache the tiles that you need for a trip.

To enable OSMand to display SIX maps, select: "Configure Map", then "Map Source", then "Define/Edit"
Then, enter the following values and click SAVE:

Code: Select all

Name: NSWTopo
URL: http://mapsq.six.nsw.gov.au/arcgis/rest/services/sixmaps/LPITopoMap/MapServer/tile/{0}/{2}/{1}
Min zoom: 0
Max zoom: 16

I'm running OSMand on a Samsung Galaxy Note 3, which has a great display, but when I get my next phone I'll get a waterproof one. I have a waterproof pouch for my current phone, and the phone can be used while in the pouch, but it's a fiddle so I keep my phone outside the pouch unless rain is imminent.

For multi-day trips I take a Rock-branded 10000mAh battery pack, which is plenty for a five day trip.

I also downloaded the Budawangs sketch map onto the phone. The stock Samsung image viewer app ("Gallery") automatically found the map in my Downloads folder. The Gallery app has a very fluid and responsive pan and zoom, which makes it a pleasure to view this map on the phone. I don't think I'll ever use my paper Budawangs map again (except to admire it as a work of art).

OSMand is a free app, as are the first few vector maps that you download for it. I use OSMand+, which costs a few dollars but allows unlimited map downloads. If you're a cheapskate you can use the free version and manually download/install as many maps as you like, but you need the paid version to display contours and hill shading.

It's getting close to the point where I will go all-electronic, and leave my paper maps behind. Who needs huge sheets of paper that are cumbersome to unfold and re-fold; might blow away in the wind; that have printing which tends to wear off on critical folds, and that are often based on surveys done a decade ago? OSM data just needs to get a little bit better first...

ribuck wrote:I've been having great success with OSMand.

ribuck - have you given OruxMaps a crack yet? I think I replied to you in another thread. I like it over OSMAnd as I've found it does some things I like a bit better, and has ability to enter UTM/MGRS grid references.

I also paid for the OSMAnd+ app to support the devs. I didn't get the extra contours/shading plugin though. Is that included in the OSMAnd+ app now? or do you still need to buy that separately?

Keithy, for OSMand+ the contours/shading is a plugin that you must pay a few dollars for.

I have tried OruxMaps a few times over the years, and have always uninstalled it because something didn't work well enough. But I'm trying it again. I'll be down in the Shoalhaven starting tomorrow, so I'll see how I find it.

Since I used it last, a "Theme" function has been added to OruxMaps to customise the rendering of vector maps. This is great! Someone could define a theme that is optimised for Australian bushwalking map needs.

One thing about OruxMaps is going to drive me crazy though. If you use your finger to slide the map around, then you turn the phone from portrait to landscape, it loses your position and re-centers the map on the last place that it had a GPS fix. Ugh!

ribuck wrote:I have tried OruxMaps a few times over the years, and have always uninstalled it because something didn't work well enoug

It has been improving for a while. I'd used OSMAnd+ for a spell, but since starting using Oruxmaps again, I've been quite impressed with it.

Still not perfect, but I'm glad the devs are working on it. They also keep a repository for their older versions on their site which lets you manually go back to versions 6.0.10 or 5.5.22 if you don't like the new features in the latest ones. And the hill shading, contours are all in the app.

There are still issues I find with Oruxmaps though, like

• sometimes entering co-ordinates, it goes a bit weird when you select the MGRS option. The first time you tap the MGRS button, the GZD & Square ID box don't appear and it defaults back to D.D. The other formats D.M.M, D.M.S, UTM, Swiss G all switch over fine.
• the screen navigation can be a bit counter intuitive. Like when creating a gpx route/track, putting your finger on a location on the screen doesn't select that location like you'd expect - the new waypoint is added at the target symbol in the centre of the screen. Double tapping a location will centre it to that location but also zoom in, which is not always what's wanted.
• Likewise navigating the menu can be counter intuitive - like when you are trying to change default directories. It took me a while to work out that you needed to double tap the final folder to save it as a new location! Tapping once would just open that folder. Very frustrating until I worked that out.

I've got the Elevate 3 theme for mapsforge maps http://www.openandromaps.org/en/legend/ ... hike-theme but this theme only works for mapsforge files, not Garmin img files.

One of the main reasons I use Oruxmaps is that it works with most OSM Garmin img maps, and I already have the same maps on my handhelds. I can't quite get Garmin OSM maps to look as nice as I'd like them to look though.

But I've also used the LINZ topo maps in mbtiles format which works great with Oruxmaps as well https://sites.google.com/site/irnzmaps/ I had some screenshots with the LINZ mbtile maps here using it with DEM files for 3D contours viewtopic.php?f=21&t=22380

To stop the map flicking back to your location when you turn portrait/landscape, I momentarily turn off the GPS Tracking button (the target button or the top most button on the right hand side). Then when you flick to portrait/landscape at a remote location it won't switch back to your current location. Not perfect, but I do that when preplanning/overviewing a route and don't want it to keep flicking back to the last GPS lock location.

OK, I've now given OruxMaps a solid 2-day workout in the bush, comparing it to OSMand.

First, as a software developer myself, I must say that I'm overawed by how much functionality is packed into both OruxMaps and OSMand. They are both amazing packages. Although I may criticize their interfaces, I doubt I could do better myself.

I used OruxMaps with Elevate 3 theme and mapsforge vector maps, and OSMand with their own vector maps. In the bush, I definitely prefer the appearance of the maps on OruxMaps. The contour lines are much clearer, and the contour labels are very readable. OSMand tries to wrap the contour labels along the curve of the contour line, which results in hard-to-read labels if the contour bends too much. In town though, the OSMand rendering is much better. At a given zoom level, OSMand can show about ten times as many street names compared to OruxMaps with the clutter of its dark street-edges.

Using my phone in flight mode, OruxMaps recorded my GPS track for six and a half hours while only decreasing my battery from 100% to 75%. It is definitely better on battery life than OSMand.

Handling of tracks and waypoints is very comprehensive and flexible in OruxMaps, and I think the interface is more intuitive than that of OSMand.

Overall I'm very impressed by OruxMaps. However for me there is one big dealbreaker. OruxMaps doesn't allow me to record geo-located voice notes as I walk. This is how I do my mapping for Open Street Map. Whenever I notice something that is missing or wrong on OSM, I record a voice note. Then, after my walk, I use the voice notes to remind myself what needs to be changed at that point. If there's a way to do that in OruxMaps, I haven't discovered it yet.

Thanks, keithy, for getting me to try OruxMaps again. I'll keep it around, and keep trying it. Often with new software, the first things one notices are features one is used to that are missing on the new software. Only later does one discover great features on the new software that were not present on one's current software.

ribuck wrote:Using my phone in flight mode, OruxMaps recorded my GPS track for six and a half hours while only decreasing my battery from 100% to 75%. It is definitely better on battery life than OSMand.

I can also confirm the low battery use on Oruxmaps and track recording. Very low battery use with GPS on in airplane mode (wifi/mobile data/mobile off). I'm quite impressed with that part. On my tablet, even if I used it recording the entire day, I will get a longer life out of it than my Garmin Oregon 600.

ribuck wrote: I record a voice note. Then, after my walk, I use the voice notes to remind myself what needs to be changed at that point. If there's a way to do that in OruxMaps, I haven't discovered it yet

With the voice recording, I don't think that is a feature yet. I did see someone else on their forum enquiring about including it late last year. It might pay to go there and include it on the "would like this" feature list.

If enough people want the feature, they might include that in future versions. For example, they included bluetooth and Ant+ Heart rate monitor connections that weren't there in early versions.

I will have to download some mapsforge files and test out the themes. I don't really use Oruxmaps in urban environments, but I'm sure there are probably better themes for urban (non topo) maps. I've mainly used Garmin img maps and the raster mbtiles with Oruxmaps so far.

And I've been using Oruxmaps for a while now, so decided to upgrade to the Donation version. If you do this though, it is a separate app, and appears to run in conjunction with the free version, but does not copy all the settings like map folder location and profiles across from the free version to the Donation version. I'm having a play around to find the settings file and see if copying it to the right folder will work.

I've just been on another overnighter, to the Kowmung River, and again the battery use was amazingly low. After 14 hours of navigation and GPS recording, there was still 33% battery left.

This means I can dispense with my external battery pack for overnighters, something I cannot confidently do with OSMand. So thanks for encouraging me to give OruxMaps another try.

But for mapping, as opposed to navigation, I'll stick with OSMand for now.