Bushwalk Australia

I think its high time that something serious is done about keeping people safe along the cradle cirque section. Perhaps someone should be stationed at Kitchen Hut? No one should pass Kitchen Hut in a pair of thongs, pair of jeans, no waterproof gear etc etc. You can place as many notice boards up all over the place as you want, but to have a more effective system somebody needs to be up there all the time.

dazintaz wrote:I think its high time that something serious is done about keeping people safe along the cradle cirque section. Perhaps someone should be stationed at Kitchen Hut? No one should pass Kitchen Hut in a pair of thongs, pair of jeans, no waterproof gear etc etc. You can place as many notice boards up all over the place as you want, but to have a more effective system somebody needs to be up there all the time.

Is this satire or honesty? I don't wish to cause offence, I just can't tell with written text.

Sounds like Daz is volunteering for the job. Well done mate!

Hard to say.... I think (assuming seriousness here) that Wayno was on the money. Have someone at the visitor centre inspect either their pack or a packing list.

For my taste that's a bit too much nannying, but I've seen packs of peanuts with a warning that's says "warning: contains nuts". A quick check isn't going as far as the nuts warning.

A little advertising the fatalities could go a long way too (but would also discourage tourism).

I doubt there are any 100% effective solutions except to stop people altogether.

dazintaz wrote:I think its high time that something serious is done about keeping people safe along the cradle cirque section. Perhaps someone should be stationed at Kitchen Hut? No one should pass Kitchen Hut in a pair of thongs, pair of jeans, no waterproof gear etc etc. You can place as many notice boards up all over the place as you want, but to have a more effective system somebody needs to be up there all the time.

I ,for one, don't want to be kept safe on the Overland Track. I want suitable information freely available (and it is), and to go and embark on an adventure and embrace the uncertainty of it all.
I'm with those advocating accepting personal responsibility, and the consequences.

Much better would be to have a giant sign at the shuttle bus with the expected windchill for the next day. Like the fire danger thingos you see on the roadside.

Like heat warnings on ayers rock.

geoskid wrote:

dazintaz wrote:I think its high time that something serious is done about keeping people safe along the cradle cirque section. Perhaps someone should be stationed at Kitchen Hut? No one should pass Kitchen Hut in a pair of thongs, pair of jeans, no waterproof gear etc etc. You can place as many notice boards up all over the place as you want, but to have a more effective system somebody needs to be up there all the time.

I ,for one, don't want to be kept safe on the Overland Track. I want suitable information freely available (and it is), and to go and embark on an adventure and embrace the uncertainty of it all.
I'm with those advocating accepting personal responsibility, and the consequences.

hear hear.

I can remember only once on many of our OLT trips being asked at the old visitors centre by I a suspect a work experience "ranger" if we had the appropriate gear, Zilch since then .
Perhaps all private OLT walkers could be vetted prior to their trip and need to register at the visitors centre (what a bun fight that would be)
corvus

Don't worry, global warming will soon end the cold weather.

GPSGuided wrote:Don't worry, global warming will soon end the cold weather.

Guess that is tongue in cheek eh!! as I believe we can always experience "alpine " weather in our mountains regardless
corvus

icefest wrote:

dazintaz wrote:I think its high time that something serious is done about keeping people safe along the cradle cirque section. Perhaps someone should be stationed at Kitchen Hut? No one should pass Kitchen Hut in a pair of thongs, pair of jeans, no waterproof gear etc etc. You can place as many notice boards up all over the place as you want, but to have a more effective system somebody needs to be up there all the time.

Is this satire or honesty? I don't wish to cause offence, I just can't tell with written text.

Its a serious question, and one that needs serious attention. Question, how many times do you see tourists up on Marions and shake your head in disbelief and wonder what in Gods name were they thinking when they dressed themselves for a bush walk ? We laugh at them, BUT All us seasoned walkers know it aint no joke when people who are trying to experience the wilderness like you and I don't make it home. Its sad and we need to do something. If you are going to charge people to walk up there at least have the courtesy of manning somewhere like Kitchen Hut with a ranger that can turn people back or better still build a shelter past Marions and another along Cradle Cirque.

Parks and wildlife Tasmania are not doing enough in my opinion and I'm not even referring to the huts or track on the OT, they need to do more. Its seems they are happy to take your $200-$3300 plus parks pass use that money for art in huts but what about implementing some safety measures in the high traffic danger areas such as Cradle Cirque, they need to build and provide signage of nearest emergency huts up there. There just isn't anything up there, its crazy!

Yeah - cool - more shelters.

Don't forget to run a bit of string between the shelters for people to follow.

It's all been said. What lengths are we (the taxpayers) going to go to protect people from themselves ? I think we go far enough on the OLT as it stands.

If you have the nanny police sprinkled around the joint adding to the wilderness experience, there's a good chance that they wouldn't be legally empowered turn people back any way.

A well intentioned post Daz, but not to my mind, very well thought out.

Not trying to be derogatory (despite the string sarcasm ) just pragmatic.

dazintaz wrote:I think its high time that something serious is done about keeping people safe along the cradle cirque section. Perhaps someone should be stationed at Kitchen Hut? No one should pass Kitchen Hut in a pair of thongs, pair of jeans, no waterproof gear etc etc. You can place as many notice boards up all over the place as you want, but to have a more effective system somebody needs to be up there all the time.

The only way to stop injuries and deaths on the Overland Track is to close it completely.

as i've said, on the tongaririo alpine crossing in nz the shuttle bus companies have an agreement not to let ill equipped people on their buses. stick a big bold sign at the track entrances, saying severe weather can hit anytime of the year. they've stuck a sign on the cascade saddle track in nz saying the track has killed ill prepared people in bad weather...

Several untruths in your post...

Parks and wildlife Tasmania are not doing enough in my opinion and I'm not even referring to the huts or track on the OT, they need to do more. Its seems they are happy to take your $200-$3300 plus parks pass use that money for art in huts but what about implementing some safety measures in the high traffic danger areas such as Cradle Cirque, they need to build and provide signage of nearest emergency huts up there. There just isn't anything up there, its crazy!

Parks get the $200 whether you pay $200 or $3200 for a private trip. So even on a day during the booking season, when they get a full complement of 60 walkers, the most they get is $12,000 a day. Employ 6-8 rangers, employ staff at Cradle and LSC visitor centres, pay for a website, employ track workers, pay for track building materials, build new huts, maintain equipment, fly sputniks in and out by helicopter at huge expense... Your track fees and parks passes (12k/day) wouldn't go near to covering all of that.

The artwork is NOT at Bert Nichols because Parks wanted it there. It is Tasmanian government policy that ANY new public building must include art to help support the local industry. It's not Parks' fault, go and whinge to your local MP.

Having walked the OT for the third time two weeks ago, there is more information and signage online, at the visitor centres, and out on the track... Then there has ever been before.

If you want every single person's pack pulled to pieces before they go, are you prepared to pay more for your OT fee and Parks pass to cover the costs, Dazfromtaz? I'm certainly not, because I do the right thing and prepare exactly how the Parks website for the OT says. Why should I have to pay for other people's lack of preparation?

The only idea which I think is worth implementing is advertising the deaths which have occurred, although this may make it painful for families of those involved. The reality is, though, that this would only be effective if it occurred before people actually got to Cradle Mountain. Can you seriously imagine an international, non English speaking tourist, booking the OT, arriving from overseas, walking to Kitchen Hut, reading a sign, and deciding to turn back? It just won't happen. Once people commit vast amounts of time and money to something, they will always justify it in their own head so that they can continue.

1. This information needs to go out and be digested before, and not after people arrive at Cradle.
2. Parks can not be held responsible for those who choose to ignore the warnings.
3. What's next? Yellow and black hazard tape on every rock on the track?

I think Parks do a wonderful job, on a shoestring budget.

Perhaps it would help if the problem being discussed were quantified?
Does anyone have, easily at hand, some figures related to the no. of deaths on the OLT? Then one would have to try and determine which of those could reasonably be attributed to having insufficient appropriate gear (as that is what is being proposed should be checked), as opposed to other reasons.

you dont need to pull someones pack to bits to have a reasonable idea if they are equipped,
hte shuttle drivers on the tongariro crossing don't.
the ill equipped ones stand out. small pack and usually street wear, often cotton.
i was in fiordland last week, it had been snowing, people over nighting in the mountain huts. all their gear fitting into day bags..., doesnt take a rocket scientist to know if they get cold or wet they are going to struggle with enough clothes to keep them warm..

geoskid wrote:Perhaps it would help if the problem being discussed were quantified?
Does anyone have, easily at hand, some figures related to the no. of deaths on the OLT? Then one would have to try and determine which of those could reasonably be attributed to having insufficient appropriate gear (as that is what is being proposed should be checked), as opposed to other reasons.

+1. Typical mass outcry in response to one off episodes.

wayno wrote:you dont need to pull someones pack to bits to have a reasonable idea if they are equipped,
hte shuttle drivers on the tongariro crossing don't.
the ill equipped ones stand out. small pack and usually street wear, often cotton.
i was in fiordland last week, it had been snowing, people over nighting in the mountain huts. all their gear fitting into day bags..., doesnt take a rocket scientist to know if they get cold or wet they are going to struggle with enough clothes to keep them warm..

All sounds a bit arbitrary wayno. Shuttle bus drivers making that call just would'nt fly here, nor should it really.

Another benefit of having figures and circumstances surrounding these events, is you could home in on common factors and target them specifically. I have no doubt Parks already do this - I mean for us armchair analysts.
I wonder whether there is much of a difference in % of deaths between day walkers and those that do the whole track - are day walkers more likely to underestimate the potential conditions?
I mean it could turn out that the most beneficial question to ask is "Are you carrying any sort of shelter" , and have some sort of cheap re-usable or disposable bivvy for sale or hire for those that don't. (this is all just relating to the OLT)

Who cares to take the liabilities if there was an adverse event using gears passed by the "guardian"? No, won't fly. Educate, notices, personal responsibility, luck. That's life and that's all.

I think there was another death resulting from hypothermia in the northern end of the park. Only a vague recollection, not in recent history. Then yes, there were Scott and Kilvert. In my time in the area there have been three deaths from falls, most likely not related to lack of preparedness. There have been a good handful of deaths attributed to previous medical conditions, perhaps preventable but then not unexpected. For every one of these there must be a dozen close calls.

The modern itinerary is a bit rushed, many people start later in the day, Cradle accommodation is seen as an additional expense and waste of time whereas it seemed to be considered the norm for interstate visitors.

So.. arrive relatively late, if your ill prepared hopefully it is cold enough at the visitor centre to prompt picking up at least a cheap plastic coat.. (yes.. a garbage bag 'is' better than nothing but..) Anyhow- rush off and build up a sweat on Marions. If its rough weather on top, find out straight away how much colder you can be if damp. Already damp though- press on, walk faster. A quick stop at kitchen hut but not too long. It may be full, besides it takes some time to dry out and warm up and its now getting late in the day...

Battle on, head down. If not fit with limbs not conditioned the scree/boulder jumble towards the cirque has proven many weak ankles and knees. Hit the cirque at the mercy of no cover and winds being funneled up and around Barn Bluff, some people may even need to brace each other to just stand up! (so the going might be even slower)... If forced to stop at all, still damp, now getting tired.. it could take some quick actions to prevent things turning 'serious'. Most people obviously get through this, they arrive at WFV, some now wondering what they have let themselves in for.

Here over summer you will likely meet a hut warden, perhaps also a track ranger. Ideally, if completely ill-prepared (and nobody ie. VC staff, interps rangers, other walkers has told you) these guys will let you know. The track ranger may even turn you back if the weather is clearing. With no previous deaths (that I can recall or heard recount) on the plateau I guess it is deemed an appropriate system... I imagine it's much easier to talk people into turning back, definitely a lot more attentive to their personal safety considering that now.. in all the rush.. they have been forced to think things through and given they have experienced conditions first hand.

They may not. Short of wrestling people to the ground what would be better, two rangers? handcuffs? Some of these people.. backpackers.. are just as likely to tell you to naff off.. agree then try something sneaky.. sponge off others.. light fires in inappropriate places.. get in worse trouble, need the 'taxi'..

The system as it stands is a lot better than it was in my day, many more staff, more statutory 'powers' and more appropriate regulation. These things wont account for everyone, I think its good to continually question, a small number of decision makers can only benefit from the experiences of those they regulate.. but not at all straight forward (once you scratch the surface).

I still think a little shelter somewhere along Cradle Cirque wouldnt hurt anyone, surely its worth it.

something like a great walk shelter perhaps?

You picked a small one there wayno - how about this one at Harris Saddle?

http://www.barefootwebdesigner.co.uk/wo ... e-Huts.jpg

tastrax wrote:You picked a small one there wayno - how about this one at Harris Saddle?

http://www.barefootwebdesigner.co.uk/wo ... e-Huts.jpg

well as you see there are two, the one nearest the camera is locked and only accessible to guided walkers.
the other shelter is identical to the one in my picture avaiable to the peasant walkers

however there is the one on mackinnon saddle on the milford track , also open to peasant walkers

Let's just do it properly and put a nice and big hut up for masses. Right on the cirque to overlook the entire valley.

where is that one?

Dazintaz, have you walked the OTL? There are three huts within an hour from the cradle cirque area. I don't even DOC can beat that! :p

wayno wrote:something like a great walk shelter perhaps?

South_Aussie_Hiker wrote:Several untruths in your post...

Parks and wildlife Tasmania are not doing enough in my opinion and I'm not even referring to the huts or track on the OT, they need to do more. Its seems they are happy to take your $200-$3300 plus parks pass use that money for art in huts but what about implementing some safety measures in the high traffic danger areas such as Cradle Cirque, they need to build and provide signage of nearest emergency huts up there. There just isn't anything up there, its crazy!

Parks get the $200 whether you pay $200 or $3200 for a private trip. So even on a day during the booking season, when they get a full complement of 60 walkers, the most they get is $12,000 a day. Employ 6-8 rangers, employ staff at Cradle and LSC visitor centres, pay for a website, employ track workers, pay for track building materials, build new huts, maintain equipment, fly sputniks in and out by helicopter at huge expense... Your track fees and parks passes (12k/day) wouldn't go near to covering all of that.

The artwork is NOT at Bert Nichols because Parks wanted it there. It is Tasmanian government policy that ANY new public building must include art to help support the local industry. It's not Parks' fault, go and whinge to your local MP.

Having walked the OT for the third time two weeks ago, there is more information and signage online, at the visitor centres, and out on the track... Then there has ever been before.

If you want every single person's pack pulled to pieces before they go, are you prepared to pay more for your OT fee and Parks pass to cover the costs, Dazfromtaz? I'm certainly not, because I do the right thing and prepare exactly how the Parks website for the OT says. Why should I have to pay for other people's lack of preparation?

The only idea which I think is worth implementing is advertising the deaths which have occurred, although this may make it painful for families of those involved. The reality is, though, that this would only be effective if it occurred before people actually got to Cradle Mountain. Can you seriously imagine an international, non English speaking tourist, booking the OT, arriving from overseas, walking to Kitchen Hut, reading a sign, and deciding to turn back? It just won't happen. Once people commit vast amounts of time and money to something, they will always justify it in their own head so that they can continue.

1. This information needs to go out and be digested before, and not after people arrive at Cradle.
2. Parks can not be held responsible for those who choose to ignore the warnings.
3. What's next? Yellow and black hazard tape on every rock on the track?

I think Parks do a wonderful job, on a shoestring budget.

I think its great you visit our beautiful state and congratulate you on your 3rd trek.
Something needs to be done to ensure that people are educated and safe along Australias premier multi day walk. Remember, we are not talking about some obscure walk no one has heard of! I wouldnt be crying too poor when it comes to funding this park, EVERYONE contributes to its upkeep even little ol you from SA. 15 years ago the walk was free and wonderful without the whordes of people, thanks to the Tas govt this place is bursting at the seams and full of visitors from all over the world, so, with that, people in jeans should be warned. How many are choppered out every year because they are wearing the wrong footing or denim wear? When someone dies, then it means the system is failing. Its not just about building another hut in honour of an Asian tourist. Kitchen Hut should be a manned checkpoint , not to rifle through your pack but to check you have paid your dues, inspect clothing vs conditions and make suitable suggestions. They should provide weather warnings at all huts, supply emergency communications at every hut, ditch the rangers there is enough traffic on the trail, they are not necessary and save truck loads of $$$!!! Think of how far that money will go towards improving the safety, track and its facilities. The rangers must be twiddling their thumbs in May now that no one is walking!

And how much do you think folks are prepared to pay for all those extra services dazintaz?

So that is an extra person to sit around at Kitchen (how many hours and for how many days a year?), probably some accommodation for them within the Cradle precinct, someone to relive them when they are on days off, another shelter (maybe) within 2.6 kms of either Kitchen Hut or Waterfall Valley, the maintenance costs of the shelter for at least the next 20 years, radio sin all the huts and I assume some sort of fax or internet so the weather can be downloaded... anything else you want to fund?

PS - I think there is only one Ranger assigned to the Overland Track on a full time basis, the rest of the trackworkers are seasonal, hut wardens are volunteers.