Kosciuszko National Park

[Lophophaps]

Memory - tell me about it! About 20 years ago I did a ten day summer trip with no map. This was intentional; other trips were not. The ground was so well known that I didn't need maps then. Plus, other party members had maps. On the Kerries I skied off the map and had to borrow one from another party, as I was alone heading for GPS and maybe points south to get help for a mate with a very unhappy knee. My navigation includes the primary points: Nowhere, Somewhere, Everywhere and Whatever. After Tate East Ridge...

The further east you go crossing the Valentine and Geehi the better the chance of a dry crossing, or at least less deep. Crossing upstream of the Geehi feeder junctions NE of Tarn Bluff may be worth considering if you are nearby, but are probably not worth a major detour.

Telemarks on the tracks beside Valentine Falls are hard. Snow helps.

[climberman]

I have seen a ranger checking cars at Munyang for Park entry passes. He left a couple of unpleasant surprises for those without.

The lovely thing about NPWS is that they don't (or haven't) issue a penalty notice, but rather a notice to pay. You are only asked to pay what's owing, basically.

[johnw]

...Note also that the Ski Tube runs all the year: you can park at the bottom OUTside the Park (no fee)...

G'day Roger. This struck a note with me as the skitube wasn't running last time we were there 2011/12 Xmas period (but had been operating on previous occasions). We're staying in Jindy same period this year doing day walks up on the range etc, so I emailed Perisher Resort this morning. Got the following reply, so sadly that option is no longer available in summer...

"Sorry John the Skitube no longer operates outside of the winter season
Perisher Guest Services"

[Drewhp]

I have been flat out with work and haven't checked in in a few days! some great additional points to add to the notes. My notes are very rough at the moment and I'm staring into the map every day, I have always used a compass and map when navigating when I was younger, but admit most of the stuff we have been doing through the blue mountains and when in NZ was on quite populat tracks and we ended up finding others to tag along with! To be safe if concerned about where my position actually is on the map I have purchased a GPS as a safety.

Here is my first draft and I would be more than appreciative of any attempts to rip it apart. Prefer a few insults and to be safe than be on the wrong track (forgive the pun).

I had to take a screenshot as I couldn't upload the table!

I think we may actually pay a fee and just park the car at Thredbo to be close to the finish when done and have a bed made up in the car to sleep in on the return night.

[Mark F]

With a full pack and a week's food the chair lift will be very inviting. Personally I have no qualms using it. You will find that the increased altitude and heavy packs mean that you shouldn't attempt too much - especially on day 1. On day 1 you may want to camp at Wilkinsons Creek - off on the side trip to Townsend. If it is a bit short then a side trip to the peaks around Townsend will fill in the day. Otherwise the distances seem fine.

Don't feel you have to keep to a schedule - its a holiday after all. You can soon adjust the itinerary to suit given the time you have available.

[Drewhp]

Thanks mark. Will plan a few options

i spend every day behind a desk so being as active as possible is my idea of a holiday!

stay tuned for the return trip tomorrow. After that side trips and options. Just want to ensure lots of thought is put in.

[Lophophaps]

The start column repeats the text and can be taken out. I don't see much point in the running total. Instead, consider having a time column, hours only. The finish column repeats the description and can be taken out as well. Total distances by day, with a broad description of the day in the text, for example, up 300 m, down 500 m, track, light scrub, steep, hard, easy, chance of a lift, etc.

I generally have one row in a table for each day. There may be more than one line in each day, with enough details to get a sense of the day. In my view the small increments in your table do not assist. Still, this is what is suggested by many. But I've never used it.

As far as I know there is no track to Rams Head. And which one ? There are three. Campsites on Twynum are exposed. If there's time, consider Townsend, bagging or camping near. There are many good spots on the approach pad as you get close to the summit, heaps of water.

You need to have a few fallback campsites. Where on Twynum were you thinking of camping? Water can be obtained in the saddle where the track from CP comes in, about 200 metre down on the right. There are also terraces towards Twynum on the left, can't recall how far, with water. This is not a good place in a NW wind!

DCB is a tad exposed. You'll have to drop off to the east a bit, and maybe south slightly. Heaps of water. I'm a little concerned that if you have poor weather from Tate you may be struggling to reach DCB. It's very exposed on top.

The day to Grey Mare Hut is unclear to me and a bit long. Can you give more details, please? I'd also like to see the entire trip to get a better idea of what you are doing.

[Lophophaps]

I've set out below the way that I organise a trip table, with columns separated by slashes. This format fits nicely on landscape A4.

Day of the week/ date/ trip day/ description/ kilometre/ time in hours/ comments

Sat/ 21/ 1/ Thredbo, chairlift, North Rams Head, Kosciuszko, Twynum maybe side trip Townsend/ 14/ 8/ Undulating, track except near RH.

Sun/ 22/ 2/ Tate, CSP, Rolling Ground, Dicky Cooper, Schlink Pass, Valentine Hut/ 22/ 9/ track at first, fades after CSP, road from Schlink Pass, river crossings.

It doesn't look the best above but it looks neater in a table. Note the distances. I'm fairly comfortable with about 14 kilometre for the Twynum day and 22 kilometre for Valentines Hut. You have 19.5 and 33.5 kilometre for these two days. I suggest that you check the distances. The times are really up to you. I don't know what time you are starting. The first lift may be at 9 am. Don't know.

[Drewhp]

Lophophaps, some great notes. I will be double checking all lengths as I am using my topo maps to plot the course.

I have a detailed commentary for each step (including topography of the area, what it looks like from the satelite images I have as well) your notes above on the track are awesome, I hope you continue following as I update. I will be keeping the same format for now until I am on the next step (working away lately to get off work in time for the trip!).

Next week will be trying to upload more detail so love to hear your thoughts on that when done. In a few hours will be loading up the return trip down through perisher. Keeping in mind this trip is the base trip, and side trips (100% will be including townsend after reviewing day 1) are still being decided (any places which are too good to be missed would be loved to add in!).

[Drewhp]

Ok so here is the last leg back about 65km back.

I'm seeing way too much walking on the road toward the end, would love to hear some alternatives.

Having this core track now set will let me see how much time I will have to do side trips.

I'm currently allowing 20km per day average but we are quite fit and generally do that in about 5 hours so would likely get closer to 30, which gives us a day or two worth of side trips.

Have seen some great suggestions so far, we were planning on finding some spots to camp as we go but any places along the track (even a little off the track) where we could camp and enjoy would be great. Will be doing my homework every single night so alterations to the plan will be greatly appreciated.

[Mark F]

My comments are predicated on relatively good visibility. In bad conditions the fire trails/roads are often the safer choice.

From Jagungal go off track to Mawsons as previously suggested. Then either head to Valentines and the fire trails or continue cross country to Schlink Hilton (avoids Gungartin) or over Gungartin to Schlink Pass. From Gungartin you could descend Disappointment Spur and rejoin the northern aquaduct trail much closer to Munyang.

You are unlikely to notice see the meteorological station near the Valentine Fire Trail if you walk the fire trail.

From the Blue Cow area go over Back Perisher and Mt Perisher and continue on the ridge over the Paralyser to the road at Spencer Creek/Betts Creek Junction. Anything is better than walking through Perisher Valley in summer. If you do get to Perisher there is the Porcupine Walking Trial which takes you up onto the Rams Head Range.

The other alternative from Schlink Pass is to return over the Rolling Grounds and down Tate East Ridge to Illawong Lodge and bash up the Snowy or Spencers Creek to the road. This is a bit scrubby from memory.

From Charlottes Pass go over Mt Stilwell and cross country to near Koscuiszko Lookout.

[Lophophaps]

Drewhp, glad the notes are useful. I agree with Mark about avoiding Perisher. Dreadful sad place in summer.

I must be getting old. I'm planning trips now and have heaps of maps, notes, screens, emails... I forgot two columns, which should be description/ Altitude/ gain/ kilometre/ That is, add the end of day altitude and the height gained or lost. The height gained or lost is for the entire day, and may be "+300 -200". Sometimes I just put in "flat". This means that there is better idea of the day. When there are multiple days that are unfamiliar, having a succinct summary makes them easier to visualise.

From Jagungal, the route you have planned has some moderate hills and river crossings. Also, it retraces the outward journey. A far more interesting walk is to head basically south from Jagungal to Mawsons Hut. From the summit of Jagungal go east to the first broad saddle, just before a bump. Then head SE and down a steepish grass slope to hit the ridge at about 254975. Note that there are steep rock bluffs near here. If you are falling over the bluffs you are in the wrong place, at 9.8 metre/sec/sec.

Follow the ridge just east of south, keeping to the high ground. It all looks the same, but don't worry. If you can spot Tarn Bluff, aim for that. You'll hit the Geehi below Tarn Bluff. Up and over, hitting the Valentine near or at Big Bend. In fine weather, Big Bend is unmistakable. From BB up a to Mawsons Hut. Cup of tea.

From Mawsons go west for a minute or two then southish to the Kerries. Just keep high. At Gungartan dive off west to Schlink Pass. I usually go SW for a bit then west to the pass. Now the boring section. I hate walking on main roads. From Munyang aka GPS go to Guthega, which is about seven kilometre away. You may get a lift. From Guthega there's a track (or used to be) on the true right bank, south side, to at least 215712. My ancient map shows a hut, Illawong Lodge, and a bridge.

The next bit I have not done in summer, but it's nice skiing. Follow the Snowy to the Charlottes Pass Track. Or you may be able to go up Spencer Creek, also a nice ski. (Note: I'm not suggesting that you ski it.) From near here get south of CP and then go SW over the Rams Head range. Keep going SW to hit the main track just above the top station.

The above route is scrubby in places.

The met station at 234860 is hard to spot going north. Going north I usually take a slight short-cut just before the junction, open bracken and a road to the fire trail.

[Lophophaps]

You can camp in most places.

Just before Townsend, lovely flat sites, water and shelter. Not much that is sheltered until Twyum. There's a huge terrace east of the summit. Approaching Tate there's room for a single tent under the lee of a rock. Just south of the summit is a flat site with rocks on three sides. It looks sheltered but isn't. I've camped there and would do so again for the sunset and sunrise. Water down a ways. The Rolling Ground has heaps of sites and water, some of which are sheltered. Not much shelter near Grey Mare Hut in the valley; the hut has sheltered sites. West of Jagungal at the track bend at 233784 there are sites, and further north on the west (left) of the track. The ridge directly above here is flat but exposed and no water.

The summit of Jagungal is exposed and a bit sloping in places, the reward being a potentially great sunset and sunrise. I've stopped there a few times. Water down a ways to the south. On the ascent, traverse east into the gully. The ridge south of Jagungal has sites, near 255975. Between Jagungal and Gungartan you can camp nearly anywhere. Some are exposed. Just east of the summit of Gungartan is a terrace and water, well sheltered from west winds, brilliant outlook.

The car park at Munyang is flat and sheltered; I have not camped there. I'd be a bit wary about camping too close to the ski villages as the water may be suss. The Rams Head Range has sheltered sites, water mostly present.

Whilst you are fit, all it takes is some scrub, terrain, bad weather, tiredness or a combination to slow you down. Good tracks can lead to speed, not so at times elsewhere. More modest days may be indicated. Pics from the air do not give a complete understanding. Also, whilst covering a lot of ground is nice - and I have done this - having shorter days to just sit back and relax can be enjoyable.

If you have time, think about going east from Jagungal to the Toolong Range. From the top of the spur on Jagungal at 257985 go SE down an open slope. Then east to Jagungal Saddle, then south. Turn Mailbox on the east, then go to Mawsons. It's wet on the ridge. Or you could turn Mailbox on the west and go via Cup and Saucer. Many options.

[Drewhp]

My comments are predicated on relatively good visibility. In bad conditions the fire trails/roads are often the safer choice.

Judging on the snow cams today and the way the weather is looking I think I will try and plan for both. nothing would be worse than nil visibility!

[Lophophaps]

You are unduly optimistic. It can get far worse. Strong winds; broken tent poles; heavy rain; map washed away in a river crossing or sliding off a mountaintop in winter; boots eaten by Keas; forgetting to bring the stove (Each says "I thought that you had it!"); climbing to the summit of a scrubby peak, and finding that the one you want is a distance away (mistake at the foot of the spurs); skier disappears over unseen edge in whiteout; descending a ridge and finishing in the wrong spot; tent flooded at 2 am. And that was just the first day.

[Drewhp]

I'm a glass half full kind of guy. Due to the fact that I'm not familiar with the park, if it gets progressively worse toward xmas we may end up pulling out early to ensure I don't put the young lady in danger.

I'm praying that doesn't have to happen as it would ruin the holiday!

[Lophophaps]

Drewhp, caution is wise, and I commend you for this. In broad terms I think that your trip is viable. A few options. Bad weather on the Main Range at the start - stuck in the tent and only get as far as, say Valentines Hut, possible walk back via Mawsons and Gungartan. Bad weather or delay near Jagungal - back to Munyang, lift to somewhere, maybe ski tube. caught on the last few days - slog on.

Provided you don't attempt too much, that you have the gear and above all have the mental prep to be cold, wet, tired, thirsty and hungry, then I think that you should give it a go. Mental prep is important. KNP is one of my favourite parks. I hesitate to use the word "classic" but the route you have takes in a heap of the Main Range, Valentine Falls and Jagungal, with options on more peaks and great campsites.

On balance the weather should be good on most days, with two days of crud. It's manageable. BTW, the list of disasters is from about 40 years of walking and skiing, not just one trip.

Post here if you want more notes.

[leaf]

Coming S from Jag to Kerries is open country. Go over Bluff Tarn to Mawsons, or
cut across to the Great Divide past Cesjacks and take the old 4WD track there to the Bulls & Mawsons.

Hello

Also heading to the area - with the 1:50 SV map and a compass - thank you for the awesome advice contained in this thread!
First trip to Kosciuszko, the idea is to wander around and stick to cross country, trying to avoid the/any masses/groups.

Could anyone give info on a good spot to cross the Geehi River while going from Jagungal to Mawsons via Tarn Bluff? Just head direct and cross wherever safe etc.? Recall reading something along those lines in another thread, and that Tarn Bluff and Bluff Tarn are not the same? Map has Tarn Bluff.

Is the Grey Mare Hut area (Grey Mare Bogong, Pyries Parlour, Bogong Swamp) worthwhile? Considering cutting across the Strumbo Range and heading to Jag via Strumbo hill instead of following the trail, or heading east of the trail.

Threadbo area - tips for 'away from the masses' walking and hiking options very welcome (fully understand that it's unavailable to an extent, especially given the plan is to bag a few of the main peaks!)

Also, what is mobile coverage like in the area? Expecting it to be nonexistent, but just wondering if there may be options for getting weather info by text while en route.

thank you!

[climberman]

leaf - ok mobile service in Thredbo itself. My Telstra NextG service is fine all across the main range peaks, but not so reliable in the valleys.

As a tip, phones will have to work much harder to maintain signal when the phone is far from the base station, and you will chew through battery very quickly. I leave mine off until I need to use it.

Anywhere off the Thredbo-Kozzie track will be almost instantly away from the masses.

I think the Grey Mare hut are is lovely.

[Drewhp]

heading off now.

Thank you all very much for your help and I look forward to sharing photos and stories when we return.

Will be registering the trip at Jindabyne visitors centre, hopefully have lots of fun and some great experiences.

Most importantly taking Mark's comments on remembering this is a holiday not just an adventure!

I was a little baffled by getting up onto the Kerries, as most of you have said to first head west from Mawsons to get up there.

I will look at the terrain on the day but any more details on what to look for at this point would be solidly appreciated.

I hope to run into some of you on the trail and share a nice cup of tea and a meal!

Cheers,
Drew

[Lophophaps]

This is probably too late, but I'll risk it. From Mawsons go west for a minute or three to pick up the pad that goes south. The Geehi and Valentine are just rivers, kneed deep or so. Strumbo Range is pleasant on the open bits but the scrub is unhappy. About 30 mi nutes from the Thredbo top station turn left uphill to Rams Head. Some scrub, mainly quite open.

[citationx]

May see some of you out there but i'm planning on starting on christmas night.
At this early stage, will probably do a munyang-white's river-kerries-jagungal-valentines-rolling grounds and as many huts in between as possible... maybe to the main range proper but will depend on time/effort etc. And probably have to figure out all the bits in between
Seems like there might be a need for raincoats friday eve/saturday...

[skibug]

Mark F. wrote: "With a full pack and a week's food the chair lift will be very inviting. Personally I have no qualms using it. You will find that the increased altitude and heavy packs mean that you shouldn't attempt too much - especially on day 1."

Just thought I'd comment on this statement about altitude, as I see and hear it so often I get a bit frustrated.

Barometric pressure, and the partial pressure of oxygen, O2, decrease logarithmically with altitude, so, yes, above 3000m there can be significant effects on human physiology, but at 2,200m (top of Kosi), the pressure drop from sea level is about 20% (from around 100 to around 80 kPa), and, because of blood physiology, the decrease of blood oxygen saturation is perhaps 3 to 5 percent in most healthy individuals. This is a relatively small amount, and most people will be unaware of any change in their exercise or other physiological response. So my general observation is that we do not suffer from any altitude effects in Australia (unless flying). Bear in mind these observations:

I would be very confident no one standing on Australia soil has died of any altitude sickness, and I would be amazed if anyone has even been treated for altitude sickness (HAPE or HACE). Our altitude is just too low.

In the eighties and nineties, Australian athletes spent a fortune travelling overseas for "altitude" training, because there was nowhere suitable in Australia to do so. The AIS did put its name to the Thredbo aquatic centre as an altitude centre in the nineties, but this was generally seen as a marketing strategy by Thredbo, rather than a serious training centre.

An exercise physiologist could possibly detect a drop in performance during an exercise stress test on a treadmill or bike on the top of Kosi, but for a hiker or skier the difference would be unnoticeable.

I've hiked in the Himalayas myself, and know first hand what the effects of altitude are - I still remember telling my wife whilst climbing Gokyo Ri, at 5300 metres, that it was the hardest thing I'd ever done (we've since had kids!), but altitude effects in Australia - like a snorkeller complaining of the Bends - just not a real problem.

Have a look at http://www.ilo.org/oshenc/part-vi/barom ... d/item/235 and many other references for more info.

Skibug

P.S. I'm not an exercise physiologist, but did lecture in Exercise and Sports Science at S.U. in the nineties.

[davidmorr]

Just thought I'd comment on this statement about altitude, as I see and hear it so often I get a bit frustrated.

Barometric pressure, and the partial pressure of oxygen, O2, decrease logarithmically with altitude, so, yes, above 3000m there can be significant effects on human physiology, but at 2,200m (top of Kosi), the pressure drop from sea level is about 20% (from around 100 to around 80 kPa), and, because of blood physiology, the decrease of blood oxygen saturation is perhaps 3 to 5 percent in most healthy individuals. This is a relatively small amount, and most people will be unaware of any change in their exercise or other physiological response. So my general observation is that we do not suffer from any altitude effects in Australia (unless flying).

15 years ago, I went to Nepal. We flew into Lukla which is about 2700m iirc, and then set off walking along the track to Namche Bazaar. We walked for half a day and set up camp at about 2300m, not much higher than Kosciusko.

At that stage, there had been no signs of the altitude. I was sitting in a building, and decided to get something from my tent. I walked outside and ran across the yard to the tent, a distance of about 20 metres. By the time I got there, my heart was pounding and my head thumping.

Now, I was a regular bushwalker, out every weekend, often backpacking through untracked scrub. I was reasonably fit. Based on that experience, I cannot agree that there are no effects from altitude in Australia. Thye may not be serious effects, but they definitely happen. So I would be inclined to agree with the poster who suggested taking the first day easy.

[skibug]

Thanks for the comment, David. I'm fairly sure you'll find that the stretch from Lukla to Namche is all above 2,500 metres, and mostly above 2600. I did it myself in 1999.

Not doubting your experience, but you're referring to one, subjective anecdote, and I'm referring to a large body of published work produced by scientists using sophisticated measuring techniques on large cohorts of test subjects.

My experience in Nepal was that there were a large number of factors effecting my comfort on the trek - unusual diet, a heavy pack and challenging terrain, the effect of unknown infections (I ended up suffering from bronchitis), and the stresses of foreign travel - that impact on your sense of well-being, and may become mixed in with the altitude effects.

Those factors could well occur on a trip around Kosi, too, but the altitude effect will be, in my opinion, very slight.

Thanks for the response,

Skibug

[Mark F]

I didn't suggest that people would be in danger of altitude sickness etc at 2,000 metres but I certainly notice an effect on my walking at that altitude especially on the first day or so. Given the OP was starting a 6 or 7 day walk, full pack etc apparently without much previous walking experience the last thing they needed was to set up too ambitious a first day. Wearing yourself out on the first day is a good recipe for later abandoning a long walk.

[jonnosan]

On Dec 31, I did the main range track from Charlottes Pass to the summit, with a side trip to Blue Lake and up a Crummer Spur to Mt Twynham, camping in Wilkinsons Creek and up to the summit of Mt Koscioszko at midnight. It was great! Crisp sunny day, a bit of snow in places, but none on the tracks. But having done pretty much all my prior walking in the blue mountains, I found the scale of the big treeless sweeps very confusing - it always took much longer to get to some visible feature or other than I was expecting.

No apparent altitude effects.

[Lophophaps]

Were there many others on the summit at midnight? With time you will learn to judge the distances.

[fogal]

Did Drewhp and his Girlfriend return? Did they Make the trip as planned? Did the weather turn? Did the constant heat and exposure get them?
I want to know the ending.

[north-north-west]

Did Drewhp and his Girlfriend return? Did they Make the trip as planned? Did the weather turn? Did the constant heat and exposure get them?
I want to know the ending.

Did you miss the thread about the memorial service?