Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskzo

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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby petrie » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 6:24 pm

Didn’t mean to cause dissension :) This is, of course, only one person’s account of the private search and I haven’t heard any others. I was just shocked at how alone they seemed amid their desperation and , I suppose, thought it couldn’t hurt by putting it out there in case anyone had any useful and helpful ideas. A healthy discussion amongst those who know what they’re talking about can only add to knowledge and experience and safety. He made mistakes that’s for sure and totally agree about self-responsiblity but anyone at anytime could get into trouble especially in a foreign country. The family’s criticism, while being pretty offensive at times :shock: might have some valid points. Always room for improvement. In the UK, As far as I know, there are many extremely well trained and equiped amateur search groups who seem to be the first responders without needing authority from the police. Even the SES can’t go out here without police say so. I realise this is to do with safety but are we really so hopeless ? Anyway, all interesting and very sad.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby FatCanyoner » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 6:24 pm

Nuts, that's why the authorities and the professional searcher need to act rationally, to balance out the natural reactions of family / friends. I've spoken to people involved in this search and have no reason to question that it was done to the usual high standards.

And the most distasteful thing I've seen in this whole tragic saga is a family slagging professional and volunteer searchers, claiming australian authorities are racist because they called the search off, and putting more lives at risk by bringing poorly prepared mercenaries in to carry out a fruitless search. All this after a poorly prepared bloke got himself into trouble and none of his family or friends raised the alarm for a week!
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby matagi » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 7:12 pm

petrie wrote: In the UK, As far as I know, there are many extremely well trained and equiped amateur search groups who seem to be the first responders without needing authority from the police. Even the SES can’t go out here without police say so. I realise this is to do with safety but are we really so hopeless ? Anyway, all interesting and very sad.

It is different in every state, I believe, but in some states the police department is the co-ordinating body for SAR and so searches are conducted under the umbrella of the police department. I guess you could interpret that as requiring police "authority".

This is the case in TAS for example, where the SES/SAR come under the authority of the Department of Police and Emergency Services and when they get called out it is as part of a police operation.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby Nuts » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 7:25 pm

(FC) No doubt local searchers have been unfairly criticised and probably undeserved. I'm sure they understand and are (on a professional level) quiet tolerant of such criticism and accepting of the grieving process.

Other than that surely they can only learn from each case.

Over-riding is the obvious dilemma that these (official) searches need to have policy on time frames and how to deal with private searchers.
Issues of responsibility, funding so on.. so often (from the institutional/ government perspective) end at the 'too hard' basket.

As an everyday forum member, putting myself in public shoes.. I can't see why I wouldn't expect even a single person from S&R appointed as a coordinator/adviser for an extended period of time... some set parameters/some input about who can join the search. Difficult, perhaps already happening on some level? but the fact is if people are allowed in this country to keep looking for those lost in the bush, they will. If they are allowed then perhaps it isn't enough (or ultimately wise) to leave them to their own devices?

(I have an ominous feeling I should have just moderated striders prickly comment and left it at that..)
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby stepbystep » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 7:31 pm

Nuts wrote:(I have an ominous feeling I should have just moderated striders prickly comment and left it at that..)


Don't want to tell you how to do your job, buuuutt.... :wink:

Agree with the rest nuts. FC, this is all pretty distasteful on the OP's thread, pretty sure you've made your point?
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby Strider » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 7:34 pm

Nuts wrote:Why does it really matter who currently has the stage. I imagine as time goes by, unfortunately, the family may well be the only one's left. I had in mind petrie's post, i baulked at approving it thinking that some here would make more of her blog link than it is, at any cost. Iv'e said before, maybe even in the face of fact- if it was my family member nothing would be good enough... yours?

If it were my family member I would appreciate having people searching, rather than bitching about irrelevant crap.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby stepbystep » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 7:38 pm

Strider wrote:
Nuts wrote:Why does it really matter who currently has the stage. I imagine as time goes by, unfortunately, the family may well be the only one's left. I had in mind petrie's post, i baulked at approving it thinking that some here would make more of her blog link than it is, at any cost. Iv'e said before, maybe even in the face of fact- if it was my family member nothing would be good enough... yours?

If it were my family member I would appreciate having people searching, rather than bitching about irrelevant crap.


...and then why your other comments on this thread, all relevant crap to-be-sure..!?!?
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby Strider » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 7:38 pm

Nuts wrote:(FC) No doubt local searchers have been unfairly criticised and probably undeserved. I'm sure they understand and are (on a professional level) quiet tolerant of such criticism and accepting of the grieving process.

Other than that surely they can only learn from each case.

Over-riding is the obvious dilemma that these (official) searches need to have policy on time frames and how to deal with private searchers.
Issues of responsibility, funding so on.. so often (from the institutional/ government perspective) end at the 'too hard' basket.

As an everyday forum member, putting myself in public shoes.. I can't see why I wouldn't expect even a single person from S&R appointed as a coordinator/adviser for an extended period of time... some set parameters/some input about who can join the search. Difficult, perhaps already happening on some level? but the fact is if people are allowed in this country to keep looking for those lost in the bush, they will. If they are allowed then perhaps it isn't enough (or ultimately wise) to leave them to their own devices?

(I have an ominous feeling I should have just moderated striders prickly comment and left it at that..)

Prickly? Perhaps. I am just amazed that the priority seems to have shifted completely away from the search. It seems as though both the family and these searchers are looking for any opportunity to blame someone, anyone, for just about anything. I suspect it's a symptom of grief, though it is saddening that a bad situation is being made worse with this unnecessary commentary.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby colinm » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 8:35 pm

For what it's worth, the OP hasn't logged on since creating this thread.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby colinm » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 8:51 pm

I thought I left a comment about whether this is actually a search. Perhaps it was deleted, perhaps I didn't hit 'submit.'

I've been following this quite closely, and while I (of course) sympathise with the family's grief, I hzve come to believe that some of their actions have been reprehensible.

Firstly, they have spread disinformation, widely.

Secondly, and far less forgivably, I think they have purposefully sought to manipulate anybody and everybody to force them to bend to their collective will. I cite, as just one example, http://www.thepetitionsite.com/242/796/ ... eep-srawn/ which is an online petition signed by nearly 10,000 people saying:
The New South Wales Police Department, the Australian Federal Police and the Australian Federal Government need to increase the number of rescue staff being utilized in the search for Prabhdeep Srawn.


I surmise, from the names, and locations, that the family has quite effectively networked among their co-religionists to garner most of the signatures. As someone who's also engaged in manipulation of media in service of a cause, I see all the hallmarks of the kind of campaigns I have mounted.

But look at what's being demanded ... that people, real live people, put themselves at significant risk in order to pursue either a pipe dream or a recovery. To use the kind of manipulative tactics I've observed for that purpose is, in my opinion, completely unethical. It's no use to suggest that they're serving the needs of their son, because he's past caring, and because they are seeking to use, as pure instruments of their will, the sons, brothers, fathers and husbands of *other* people. I'm not religious, but I consider treating others as instruments, as objects, completely unethical.

In summary, this ceased to be a search some time ago, and is instead a ceremony consecrated to the proposition "We did everything we could." And I think it has slipped into "We did every*one* we could."

Delete this as you wish.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby FatCanyoner » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 9:24 pm

Here here Colin. My thoughts exactly, also as someone who has not only been following this search closely (though this forum, the media, the family's facebook group etc). And I hope your post isn't deleted, because it makes some very good points that need to be considered if you want to have any sort of objective look at what has been going on, and continued to go on.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby FatCanyoner » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 9:24 pm

On a lighter note, congratulations on 5000 posts Nuts!!!
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby colinm » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 9:36 pm

Well, on a really dark note, when does the search end? 1) When they recover the victim, 2) when the potential victims (ie: searchers) wake up, or 3) when one of the searchers suffers the same fate?

My guess is #2, and at that point the family may be able to really process what's happened to them. From their most recent posts, they're twirling in a delirium of denial, and something, probably something other than #1 is eventually going to have to bring them out of it into the light.

I don't think anybody's really been helping them by feeding their delusions, nor by helping spread them. (I'm not referring to anyone here, but to the people egging them on, on FB.)
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby stepbystep » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 9:39 pm

I'd suggest...

4/ When the family runs out of money....

Stones, glass houses etc etc.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby corvus » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 9:47 pm

Do we really need to continue with this ?? the Man is dead and whilst it is important for the Family to get closure in finding his corpse and doing what they want to do , I honestly don't think other than an announcement of discovery (if any) that we need discuss it further on this Forum.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby colinm » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 9:52 pm

"The lost child" is an Australian cultural motif which runs really deep.

http://books.google.com.au/books/about/ ... ym_PWkEIIC

http://www.smh.com.au/national/a-countr ... -el8d.html

The notion of being lost in the bush goes right to the core of Australian culture, Bourke and Wills, Leichardt, Lassiter, etc etc. As I understand it, the point of Voss (Patrick White) is that he merges with the bush, he embodies it.

This whole saga touches on that. To even suggest that we are all somehow complicit, or negligent, to even *suggest* it, is Australian cultural poison. That might, additionally, blind us to things which we could actually do better.

I think it also goes to the recent subject of prosecuting people who get into trouble - as a culture, we (like the family in question) would seek to blame someone, anyone, when it's not *really* about blame.

So, yeah, I think it's not a discussion without merit. I can't think of a better group of people to unpack the baggage.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby corvus » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 10:03 pm

colinm wrote:"The lost child" is an Australian cultural motif which runs really deep.

http://books.google.com.au/books/about/ ... ym_PWkEIIC

http://www.smh.com.au/national/a-countr ... -el8d.html

The notion of being lost in the bush goes right to the core of Australian culture, Bourke and Wills, Leichardt, Lassiter, etc etc. As I understand it, the point of Voss (Patrick White) is that he merges with the bush, he embodies it.

This whole saga touches on that. To even suggest that we are all somehow complicit, or negligent, to even *suggest* it, is Australian cultural poison. That might, additionally, blind us to things which we could actually do better.

I think it also goes to the recent subject of prosecuting people who get into trouble - as a culture, we (like the family in question) would seek to blame someone, anyone, when it's not *really* about blame.

So, yeah, I think it's not a discussion without merit. I can't think of a better group of people to unpack the baggage.


Shees that is a very long bow :?:
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby colinm » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 10:18 pm

corvus wrote:Shees that is a very long bow :?:


I struggle to see a pertinent criticism in that judgement.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby wildwalks » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 10:21 pm

I agree with Fatcanyoner, Corvus and Colinm. This has been a helpful discussion and the personal insight from the private SAR team sheds a lot of the struggle of SAR generally. Perhaps now is a good time to turn the conversation to a new topic - on how we (as part of a bushwalking community) can help reduce the chance of this and other similar losses in recent time.

I have been having some chats about this offline, I think what makes us (people on bushwalk.com) a community is that we don't just bag people out but we want to see change and debate with each other to find good solutions.

What do you think? Anyone interested in starting a new thread and exploring what are some things that could be improved to reduce the chance of people losing their life like this. Don't get me wrong I know we can't ensure people's safety but there must be some things that can be improved. From Government, NPWS, TREK, beacon hire, Bushwalking guide books, maps, websites, brochures etc. Interestingly of the significant search and rescues in NSW of late -- almost all the missing people were solo and many from overseas. I am sure there are no easy answers, but I would enjoy bouncing some ideas around. I know that NPWS, the police and soon the coroner will be having this discussion. Be great if we can contribute to that in a meaningful way, maybe come up with a few crazy idea that might just work.
Besides the spelling of the threads title is starting to drive me crazy.

Matt :)
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby stepbystep » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 10:28 pm

wildwalks wrote:... Anyone interested in starting a new thread and exploring what are some things that could be improved to reduce the chance of people losing their life like this...


This already happened yet the discussion continues here which brings everything back to this case...
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby colinm » Fri 05 Jul, 2013 11:14 pm

stepbystep wrote:
wildwalks wrote:... Anyone interested in starting a new thread and exploring what are some things that could be improved to reduce the chance of people losing their life like this...

This already happened yet the discussion continues here which brings everything back to this case...


That's because the family hit a lot of hot buttons without fully knowing what they were doing. I thought I was detailing precisely why the family managed to raise the heat (without shedding much light) with the references to "the lost child" motif.

So, they managed to rub Australians up the wrong way, *but* if half of what they say happened in the search actually happened, there were some pretty poor decisions made.

Example: the guy's laptop wasn't found under the seat of the car for days after the official search started. It appears that there was a lot in it about his intentions. Oops. Things like that aren't really excusable, are they?

I have a story, from a close friend: his daughter's group got lost (on a Duke of Ed expedition - typical) in the Blue Mountains. He rocked up, he's a very experienced bushwalker, an active scout leader, and he knew both his daughter (a Scout, one of his troop) and her party's and her own intentions. He explained the situation (presumably to a Sgt wearing white overalls) and was dismissed condescendingly. My friend knew where they'd go, and offered to go get 'em. Was refused 'permission.' Went anyway, found the kids and led them out. (EDIT: the events occurred late at night, the kids weren't missing, but overdue, they were lost.)

There are similarities between my friend's story and the Canadian search story - the insistence on procedure, ignorance of salient facts. There are differences too, my friend knew what he was doing, he wasn't distraught.

SAR stuff can always get better. The Canadian family's *trenchant* criticisms are almost certainly not completely irrational (if the K9 searcher is to be believed (a) the dog alerted, (b) the private searchers found a water bottle belonging to the victim.)

The way the family attacked, their criticisms are really not likely to be effective in changing anything, too easily dismissed as emotional. Their rage, on the other hand, and their outsider status, lead them to make criticisms which should be heard.

Colin.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby corvus » Sat 06 Jul, 2013 8:49 pm

Colin,
Why do you feel the need to prolong this thread ,he is dead :( .
If it was my son I would keep looking but not level any criticism towards SAR or other Australian searchers when looking for the proverbial needle .
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby colinm » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 12:40 am

corvus wrote:Why do you feel the need to prolong this thread he is dead :(

I'm pretty sure I explained why I think the thread has merit, and that at least twice. If you're still really unclear as to why (and not only asking rhetorically,) perhaps I can explain it to you at greater length and lower density in PM.

corvus wrote:If it was my son I would keep looking but not level any criticism towards SAR or other Australian searchers when looking for the proverbial needle.

If it were my son, and I a local, I certainly wouldn't criticise SAR, because I would know that no matter how well-founded the criticism, it would not help at all. I would hold my breath, bite my tongue and cross my fingers, because that's how we do things around here.

However good SAR is (and I know it's packed full of the most dedicated and capable people,) it is structurally impervious to effective change through criticism, but that should not be so, and that is why I think this thread has merit.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby wayno » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 5:08 am

what if they dont find him after all this? the family then have to reconcile themselves to having expended all this effort and money for nothing.. the search can't go on forever and its not a foregone conclusion they will find him. sooner or later they will have to call it quits... unless they are multi millionaires and can fund an indefinite search....
every few years there are searches in nz which show up no trace of a missing person, and these are searches where they know the area a person was in when they went missing, and no remains are ever found, as the terrain becomes more rugged and the bush thicker the chances of finding a missing person can go up astronomically.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby matagi » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 8:02 am

colinm wrote:However good SAR is (and I know it's packed full of the most dedicated and capable people,) it is structurally impervious to effective change through criticism, but that should not be so, and that is why I think this thread has merit.

How then do we as a community ensure change? Change certainly happens when the Coroner makes a recommendation. The Coroner's Court is bound by different rules of evidence from a Criminal Court, which means they can take criticism into account when making their findings, but (fortuntely) not all SAR efforts require the attention of the Coroner. Joining a SAR organisation and trying to drive change from within is likely to be a long slow process and unlikely to be successful unless you are part of the professional arm of the organisation as opposed to the volunteer arm.

Referring to this case in particular, the failure to locate the laptop early is a failure of basic policing - that's it.

There may be criticisms to be levelled at how the search was conducted and how soon it was stopped, but unless we are privy to all the decisions made and the basis upon which they were made, we are not really in a position to judge.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby colinm » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 10:47 am

matagi wrote:How then do we as a community ensure change?

That's a great question. Start by thinking about it and talking about it, I guess.

matagi wrote:Change certainly happens when the Coroner makes a recommendation. The Coroner's Court is bound by different rules of evidence from a Criminal Court, which means they can take criticism into account when making their findings, but (fortuntely) not all SAR efforts require the attention of the Coroner.

I've a lot of respect for the Coroner's work - it's one of the few institutions which seeks the truth in an open and structured enquiry. The Coroner's recommendations aren't always followed. For instance, he recommended signposting the Mt Solitary track(s) a couple of years back, but I don't think that's been done. (I don't think it's a good idea anyway, but that's a different discussion - I think the state's GIS data should be made more widely available.)

matagi wrote:Joining a SAR organisation and trying to drive change from within is likely to be a long slow process and unlikely to be successful unless you are part of the professional arm of the organisation as opposed to the volunteer arm

First, some caveats: I am not an SAR volunteer (too old, too fat, too slow apparently,) and I am not apprised of all the facts in any of the cases.

From reading, observation, discussion, I think one of the problems is the 'professionalisation' of SAR. I've read all the rescue notes I could find from the early 20th C to date. The reports thin out about the time the law was changed to give NSWPF total control of SAR. That's because, I surmise, the community SAR group(s) felt themselves to be accountable to the community, whereas the NSWPF are accountable only to the Minister.

matagi wrote:Referring to this case in particular, the failure to locate the laptop early is a failure of basic policing - that's it.

I agree. And SAR coordination is now (by law) a police function, and not a basic one, at that.

matagi wrote:There may be criticisms to be levelled at how the search was conducted and how soon it was stopped, but unless we are privy to all the decisions made and the basis upon which they were made, we are not really in a position to judge.

Precisely. We are not, and never will be, privy to that information.

There are some criticisms by the family which seem to me to raise some questions worth knowing the answers to. Why don't we have fixed heat sensors in rescue craft? Why don't we have search dogs?

There was a time when all bushwalker searching and rescuing was performed by club volunteers. To me, from reading, they seemed to do a pretty good job. They formed their own peak/elite rescue group, as I understand it, the BWRS. Now the BWRS has been placed under the control of NSWPF, by legislation and not because of merit.

That legislation, on my reading, is largely written so as to negotiate the matter of deployment of expensive resources. It deals explicitly with whose (say) helicopters the search can use, and who will pay the costs. The details of how a search will be conducted are also set out in subsidiary documents incorporated by reference into the law. You can find them on the net, and they make interesting reading. The one I've read (concerning the coordination of SAR) is not a bad document, but it is a pedestrian procedural manual.

So, the law requires NSWPF to conduct the search so the NSW government can be sure it has control over expenditure, which one would think would provide a greater level of resource to the search. Yet we don't have fixed heat sensors, we don't have a dog search unit.

That legislated outcome seems, to me, paradoxical. Even though (I think) nothing would have changed the outcome in this case, I think this case (and every case) gives an opportunity to review and improve the process.

If it's not pellucidly clear, from the above, I think the legislation is poor law, in that it gives NSWPF a monopoly function that it may be ill-equipped to perform, and it puts SAR into the realm of politics and power, not high performance.

Colin.
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby Travis22 » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 4:48 pm

Im assuming most here have seen this, this video was posted on their facebook search page this morning.

I honestly dont know what to say, but i found the whole video sickening. I believe these are some of the people the family have brought out from Canada to search?

One would think they have never seen snow before.. What a complete and utter waste of money.

Im sure someone said earlier, but this in my eyes reinforces it, these 'searchers' looked to be enjoying their vacation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dka722XanfE&sns=fb

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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby wayno » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 4:57 pm

clothing looks reasonable , but no ice axes or crampons
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby FatCanyoner » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 4:58 pm

Travis, just finished watching that video. Couldn't agree more. Distasteful, amateurish, and they could literally walk over the body without realise the way they are going. They are enjoying a free holiday, having a boy's own adventure, but doing nothing that even vaguely resembles a search. I'm not sure how snowball flights and wandering around on tracks in near whiteout conditions is going to lead to a rescue. Seeing these yahoos jumping around and making total dicks of themselves on camera only reinforces the fear of many, if not most who have commented here, that this search is a recipe for disaster and it is only a matter of time before one of these people hurts or kills themselves!
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Re: Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskz

Postby wayno » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 5:05 pm

well.... its ten minutes of video might not be indicative of what they are doing all the time, but theres no evidence of a systematic organised search in the video. so i'd doubt that there is much if anything systematic going on when the camera is off... more like an all expenses paid trip to the wilderness.... waste of someone elses money...
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