Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskzo

[matagi]

Here's a photo (from FB) of the SAR aerial search log. It looks comprehensive to me.

I think they missed a bit on the left.

[Travis22]

Looks like they went up and down LNC quite a few times, and covered the area West of Townsend quite completely. Great image Colinm, i had not seen it before.

I still think he will turn up in the LNC area eventually. Might be 15years from now but for the families sake i hope it is early next summer.

Travis.

[Joomy]

Laughing/crying at the last few pages of this thread, particularly the mix-up with the video. My succinct opinion is that volunteer search and rescuers should be responsible for their own welfare. The family aren't forcing anyone to do anything. They aren't doing things perfectly (or even terribly well) but what does one expect from a family with no professional help? I agree with the person who said that private S&R clubs and groups should be encouraged like they are in England, as long as they are well prepared and trained. It is a little dismaying to think that incompetence is resulting in the family bleeding themselves dry, but it's also a shame that there's no experienced people out there helping and guiding them, even if it is just to help them gain perspective and see reality.

One relevant aspect of the video, it really shows how calm and clear at the start of the day in the Charlotte's Pass car park can turn into freezing, howling, limited visibility weather later in the same day. Really gives an idea of how an under-prepared hiker could get caught out.

[Strider]

it's also a shame that there's no experienced people out there helping and guiding them, even if it is just to help them gain perspective and see reality.

It could be argued that by not being out there, they are doing exactly that...

[colinm]

This is the latest FB post, and it's getting pretty stupid now.

URGENT: We are in need of volunteers for hiking/bushwalking only. No climbing or alpine experience required. This is a dense bush area, but no snow in this area. Family members have hiked here for 6-8 weeks with minimal skills and equipment, the temperatures in this area are above freezing. If you can help, please contact us via private inbox, and we can provide you further details and answer any questions you may have. Thank you.

Notable points for travelling in the Snowy Mt in winter:

* no alpine experience needed.
* minimal skills required
* minimal equipment required
* hey, it hasn't been snowing lately, must be safe.

Hard to imagine, with an attitude like that, that anyone ever gets lost in the Snowy Mountains ... say, like the victim did.

I'm feeling very angry about this. I don't care how badly you miss your sadly departed family member, it's completely irresponsible to induce others to go in like that. It isn't a search, it's a sacrificial rite, and it won't end until someone else gets bushed.

[forest]

That's a pretty sad state to be in for the family. Minimal equipment eh, what 100m below the snow line in peak snow season.
I think a reality check might be called for.

[matagi]

This is the latest FB post, and it's getting pretty stupid now.

URGENT: We are in need of volunteers for hiking/bushwalking only. No climbing or alpine experience required. This is a dense bush area, but no snow in this area. Family members have hiked here for 6-8 weeks with minimal skills and equipment, the temperatures in this area are above freezing. If you can help, please contact us via private inbox, and we can provide you further details and answer any questions you may have. Thank you.

Notable points for travelling in the Snowy Mt in winter:

* no alpine experience needed.
* minimal skills required
* minimal equipment required
* hey, it hasn't been snowing lately, must be safe.

Hard to imagine, with an attitude like that, that anyone ever gets lost in the Snowy Mountains ... say, like the victim did.

I'm feeling very angry about this. I don't care how badly you miss your sadly departed family member, it's completely irresponsible to induce others to go in like that. It isn't a search, it's a sacrificial rite, and it won't end until someone else gets bushed.

That indicates a frightening lack of knowledge of alpine environments.

[perfectlydark]

Ive stayed out of this but I think I can now safely add an OMG

[wayno]

its been suggested before but the way its going it looks like people desperate to find a body for the insurance.....

[wildwalks]

This is the latest FB post, and it's getting pretty stupid now.......
I'm feeling very angry about this. I don't care how badly you miss your sadly departed family member, it's completely irresponsible to induce others to go in like that. It isn't a search, it's a sacrificial rite, and it won't end until someone else gets bushed.

Although I agree with you Colin - I think this is for the area of focus down at Geehi flats. I know it can still get pretty crappy down there -- but I don't think this is an ad for searching the main range area.

I still think the whole this is a very bad and unsafe idea.

Matt

[neilmny]

Their suggestion that the temperature stays above zero if they are talking of the Geehi Flats is just rediculous.

[wildwalks]

Them suggesting that the temperature stays above zero if they are talking of the Geehi Flats is just rediculous.

agree

[Nuts]

its been suggested before but the way its going it looks like people desperate to find a body for the insurance.....

Really?? Where?

[Travis22]

Yes, their postings on FB today have once again left me feeling really frustrated for them and moreso now with them.

I didnt think there would need to be any sort of Police intervention but i think enough is enough. In this day and age how can they be allowed to do what they are doing, even if they had public liability insurance (id assume they do not), doing this is a NP would be a legal nightmare. Surly parks are opening themselves up too some liability allowing this to take place also??

If this guy was in the outback, id entertain the idea a little longer miracles and all that... But in that location and knowing the weather encountered within the first 24hours of his trip, he's either climbed into a tiny cave or between some big rocks or fallen between them and frozen to death on the very first night.

Has anyone messaged them for further information regarding where they would like some volunteers to search now?

Travis.

[DarrenM]

Has anyone messaged them for further information regarding where they would like some volunteers to search now?

Travis.

I think it's about time some of you should instead of making assumptions, taking things out of context and not adding anything positive to the search. You guys all seem full of knowledge and experience so why not put it to good use if you have it.
Some people are paying attention.

[Strider]

Define "good use" Darren...

[DarrenM]

Define "good use" Darren...

I'm not interested in getting drawn into the politics of it. See it anyway you like.....go back and read through the multiple pieces of miscommunication, hearsay and assumptions.
I mean this with respect. As has been said in this thread, there are experienced people here that the family are desperately seeking help from. Let's stop dragging any negativity, perceived or otherwise and try to be a little constructive.
Start a stupidity thread and vent there perhaps.
Once again I mean this with respect.

[Strider]

I am not venting or being disrespectful. I am genuinely interested in what you are suggesting - do you believe more people should still be out searching?

[wayno]

its been suggested before but the way its going it looks like people desperate to find a body for the insurance.....

Really?? Where?

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=13608&start=90#p182934

[wayno]

didnt i see something recently where they claimed the dogs had nailed down the area he was in to within a couple of k's? if thats the case why do they want anyone they can rope in to go searching?

[colinm]

go back and read through the multiple pieces of miscommunication, hearsay and assumptions.

Ok. Let me pare it back to some uncontroversial assumptions, and see if we can agree on a reasonable conclusion.

(1) The person has been out of communication for at least 8 weeks in a harsh and cold environment, inimical to unassisted human survival. (2) The person was not equipped with shelter, provisions or other equipment sufficient to support 8 weeks of unassisted living, I include in this 'some ability to make fire.' (3) In the period during which the person was out of communication, there have been extended weather events inconsistent with human life, by reason of extremes of cold weather.

Conclusion: the person is deceased.

Do you disagree, DarrenM? Is there anything you know which might lead a reasonable person to disagree with that conclusion?

As has been said in this thread, there are experienced people here that the family are desperately seeking help from. Let's stop dragging any negativity, perceived or otherwise and try to be a little constructive.

Seeking help to do what? (a) recover a corpse, (b) participate in a miraculous rescue, wherein an imaginary friend Waheguru directs the feet of the weary searchers to a cave, set out like a Flintstones-style ice palace, in which they find the living person feasting on bugs (two, I believe, are sufficient, combined with numerous berries and plant roots.) (c) feel like they've 'done everything they could', (d) find 'closure', (e) ???

I think it's a fairly simple calculation: the ethics of inducing people to put themselves at considerable (and considerably elevated) risk of serious injury and death for the purposes of recovering a body are such that no person, having reached the conclusion above, would ethically do this. Short-hand: "Let the dead bury the dead."

The family's frantic efforts in denial suggest to me that the help they need is therapeutic, and not logistical. Possibly some instruction in ethics, too - the part where you do not use others as pure instruments of your will.

[photohiker]

didnt i see something recently where they claimed the dogs had nailed down the area he was in to within a couple of k's? if thats the case why do they want anyone they can rope in to go searching?

Probably, that area is under snow now...

[wayno]

the family really do need to seriously reassess what they are doing, after eight weeks they are still pushing as hard as ever to maintain a search. why?
1. they are certain they are going to find him if they keep going long enough
2. they havent come to terms with having to call off the search without finding him?
2. they need the body to get a death certificate for insurance purposes?

they havent changed their standpoint of criticising professional searchers efforts yet they have done no better.
they are not interested in the fact professonal searchers decided it wasnt worth continuing the search due the the low likelihood of being sure of finding him and the ongoing physical risk to the searchers and the fact they needed to get back to their lives after conducting an extensive search.

[matagi]

Define "good use" Darren...

I'm not interested in getting drawn into the politics of it. See it anyway you like.....go back and read through the multiple pieces of miscommunication, hearsay and assumptions.
I mean this with respect. As has been said in this thread, there are experienced people here that the family are desperately seeking help from. Let's stop dragging any negativity, perceived or otherwise and try to be a little constructive.
Start a stupidity thread and vent there perhaps.
Once again I mean this with respect.

I am not venting or being disrespectful. I am genuinely interested in what you are suggesting - do you believe more people should still be out searching?

I'm with Strider on this one - what precisely are you suggesting should be done by the "experienced people" here?

[DarrenM]

I have made constructive suggestions earlier in the thread (one of the very few if any) about helping to educate and hopefully reduce the number of incidents in future. The thread just goes round in circles about inexperience etc. Stating the obvious gets boring.

Colin, I figured most people wouldn't survive more than 48 hours given the conditions, gear he had and experience level....so yes, a recovery from the start. I just find pointless that this thread has focused on all the things they don't like about the situation yet still minimal talk about what can be done.

what precisely are you suggesting should be done by the "experienced people" here?

Think outside the square...If people want to talk it over, at least take the time to look through the information available in this very thread before shooting off.
Talk over some more scenarios about weather conditions at the time, wind direction, last mobile ping, where would you go and what would you do if in the same situation. Create some questions worth chewing over.

[colinm]

Wow. So, I asked on FB whether the family had accident/injury insurance for the searchers. Down came the ban-hammer, the question's erased from the history, I'm not permitted to post any more. Perfectly reasonable question to ask, when they're seeking people (with minimal skill and gear) and downplaying the possibility of bad weather.

Seems like something about my question triggered a reaction (other than my general insensitivity, that's been evident for weeks.)

It's almost as if the question of insurance is not something the family want people thinking about ... odd, since a volunteer should get some insurance. Makes me suspect Wayno's onto something.

[colinm]

I figured most people wouldn't survive more than 48 hours given the conditions, gear he had and experience level....so yes, a recovery from the start. I just find pointless that this thread has focused on all the things they don't like about the situation yet still minimal talk about what can be done.

It's a counter-narrative. It's a recovery, and has been all along, but that's not what's being pushed. In fact, the family post yesterday was headed "URGENT." Not clear on what the urgency is.

Why worry about it? Well, false narratives which occupy the media, and seek to manipulate people en mass, need to be rebutted.

[Lindsay]

My 2c worth here, and I realise that what I'm about to say is controversial will annoy/upset some people, so apologies in advance to you. This family is Indian. In Indian culture there is not the same concept of volunteering for the benefit of others that is the case in Australia. Also ,in Indian culture everything has a price and everything can be bought and sold, everything can be negotiated. I would not be surprised if the family believes that the official search was stopped not because there was no chance of finding the man alive, but because there was no financial incentive to continue. Hence the money splashed out on this private search in the belief that they can buy a result.

[Strider]

Think outside the square...If people want to talk it over, at least take the time to look through the information available in this very thread before shooting off.
Talk over some more scenarios about weather conditions at the time, wind direction, last mobile ping, where would you go and what would you do if in the same situation. Create some questions worth chewing over.

To what benefit, though? It is clearly apparent he has almost certainly perished some time ago. What is the hurry to locate his body and why is it so crucial that the safety of others should be put at risk?

[wayno]

it wasnt my idea about the life insurance, fat canyoner proposed the idea some time ago, to me its been a genuine consideration.