Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskzo

[wayno]

no disrespect but i think they are underestimating SAR, if SAR couldnt find him, its extremely unlikely a small group of amateurs will.
if he's been covered up by snow. then you'll have to wait till the snow melts and any search undertaken now will be futile....

[DarrenM]

Agreed Wayno, and IMO opinion It's purely about numbers and covering ground now. Snow on th ground at the time he went missing played a part as did the several weather events since. Slipping into one of the many drainages, sink holes, or simply being in an area not considered comes down to numbers.
Like the missing Snowboarders, once covered they were pretty much non existent. My concern also lies in the fact that I spend considerable time in the area, winter and summer down in the canyon and lower drainages of the western faces. I don't want to come across a retrieval.

I'm not suggesting in any way that SAR need amateur help. I'm suggesting anyone thinking of helping should put money back to the teams that could use valuable funding.

[wayno]

yes and offering money then begs the question , anyone offering to help are they there because they really have the ability to help or are they just there for the money and are playing at being a SAR volunteer. you need to be properly trained to really know what you are doing..
the police probably abandoned the search becaue it was turning into a needle in a haystack search and they don't believe he could possibly still be alive in those severe weather conditions with the snow around...

[DarrenM]

I guess the money issue is a new concept that has given this particular incidence a grey area for Professional teams to deal with. It would be incredibly frustrating for them no doubt...but insinuating that if you aren't a part of SAR and other organisations you are by default an amateur, is generalising things a tad.

In terms of search techniques, absolutely, but there are a core group of backcountry types with an incredible amount of local knowledge and skill which is equally as deployable and useful under the direction of Search teams. Some of us don't "Play" at being SAR and have no intention of. It occurs to me in these situations that helping in any way possible is better than simply talking about it....It could be any of us one day.

All I know is with the weather now changing, the point is questionable.

[Strider]

..It could be any of us one day.
.

I'm not sure there would be many people on here that would be willing to head into KNP under snow conditions without a PLB..

[wayno]

did he give accurate intentions of his route?

[Nuts]

I guess the money issue is a new concept that has given this particular incidence a grey area for Professional teams to deal with. It would be incredibly frustrating for them no doubt...but insinuating that if you aren't a part of SAR and other organisations you are by default an amateur, is generalising things a tad.

In terms of search techniques, absolutely, but there are a core group of backcountry types with an incredible amount of local knowledge and skill which is equally as deployable and useful under the direction of Search teams. Some of us don't "Play" at being SAR and have no intention of. It occurs to me in these situations that helping in any way possible is better than simply talking about it....It could be any of us one day.

All I know is with the weather now changing, the point is questionable.

Yeah, there are many people who can (and do) handle winter conditions safely.. It would have to be doubtful at this late stage but good on anyone willing to help out imo.. Internet posturing over, due respect to 'experts' yada yada, money or not....at the end of the day I'd hope (in the same postition) that people would help me... (just my 2 cences)

[DarrenM]

..It could be any of us one day.
.

I'm not sure there would be many people on here that would be willing to head into KNP under snow conditions without a PLB..

I just meant in terms of rescue due to injury and the like, not lost specifically.

did he give accurate intentions of his route?

I'm not sure Wayno other than Mt Kos then on to Townsend.

[Mark F]

After watching the ABC Canberra news where the family was criticising the rescue effort claiming there should be permanent mountain rescue teams etc. I thought to myself that while I feel great sorrow for their loss, I believe that pretty much everything has been done and that ultimately it is partially his (the lost man's), responsibility to have taken appropriate food, maps, clothing, and if solo, a plb or similar.

[DarrenM]

I did see the ABC report and agree 100% Mark.

[Strider]

After watching the ABC Canberra news where the family was criticising the rescue effort claiming there should be permanent mountain rescue teams etc. I thought to myself that while I feel great sorrow for their loss, I believe that pretty much everything has been done and that ultimately it is partially his (the lost man's), responsibility to have taken appropriate food, maps, clothing, and if solo, a plb or similar.

You hit the nail on the head there.

[Mountain Rocket]

The family is now offering $100,000 as reward for finding him. Without following this story I have already seen a bunch of idiots on Facebook planing on heading out there with no idea, trying to find him. Terrible situation all around.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-10/f ... bu/4744274

[Strider]

"We don't want any other family in Australia to go through what we've been going through, so we want to make sure that only experienced hikers are going up there."

Wasn't Prahb also claimed to be highly experienced????????

[wayno]

yes , part of the reason the family hold out hope for him being alive is that the canadian army trained him oin winter survival
messages requesting people to help and offering money are being spammed all over twitter and facebook. being directed at overseas sites, its not very focused. so the people they are going to attract to a search could be highly variable...

[wander]

My experience is people from North America have no concept of how difficult the scrub and fire re-growth make for a search. They show me pictures of what they call scrub back in North America and talk about how difficult it is to go through. But they are pictures of forest and maybe bracken or some shrubbery that we would not even consider rating as scrub. A person could be very very close to searchers in many many areas of the KNP and not be seen or even heard due to the density of vegetation. Add snow cover to the equation and unless you are searching very early with good dogs you will not find people who cannot provide assistance with their location (due to some incapcitation) without lot a luck.

The expenditure of effort in the search to date has been considerable. There have been many searches in the KNP over the years and lessons out of each search are put back into the system for the next one.

It would be pure luck or access to more information that allows a smaller targeted search area to locate someone now after the length of time that has passed.

The history of poor results and further people getting lost from un-coordinated and untrained searches in Australia has been covered by Gov enquiries and the like with the recommendations being do not do it for a list of good reasons.

[jonnosan]

From various news reports and updates on social media, it seems like they are focusing the ongoing search based on logs from mobile phone base stations to calculate an approximate location he would have been on the ridge line when the storm hit, combined with modelling of the terrain and weather conditions he would have faced when he presumably made the decision (or was forced ) to leave the track. To an SAR novice (me) the technique seems useful, I know it is difficult to predict exactly what people will do in the midst of a panic, but I would expect for example people even in a panic to head down a gully for shelter rather than scramble up.

I'd be interested to know from anyone with experience about the effectiveness of this technique?

BTW I know many of us will have opinions about the likely outcomes and what the missing hiker could have done differently, but please remember this specific thread was started by a family member who may well return and read the subsequent posts.

[wander]

The local paper (The Advertiser) had a small report that the search was continuing with the use of a drone but did not note if this was official or private. A good choice at present given a lot of snow has gone due to rain. And a good choice for a private search as no further searchers are put at risk.

[Strider]

Heard on the radio just before they now think they have pinpointed his whereabouts using the mobile tower technique.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-11/n ... ns/4746330

[wander]

West face of Mt Townsend? Last advice was the fire re-growth down that was very very thick, but I could be out of date.

[DarrenM]

Yes, very steep and very thick regrowth. There are a multitude of gullies in difficult terrain that covers Hannels Spur through to the Northern end of Townsend Spur. Very tough country.

Northern Ridgeline of Townsend



Regrowth in the area. Off track can be less than 2k a day or worse.

[caveman]

Anybody else notice that it was seven days before he was even missed? Prabhdeep set out for his walk on the 13th of May and search parties started looking for him on the 20th of May. I think the idea is that if you are bushwalking you let somebody know where you you are going, and when you are due to return. He was very poorly prepared for this trip.

[FatCanyoner]

Anybody else notice that it was seven days before he was even missed? Prabhdeep set out for his walk on the 13th of May and search parties started looking for him on the 20th of May. I think the idea is that if you are bushwalking you let somebody know where you you are going, and when you are due to return. He was very poorly prepared for this trip.

Yep. And that seven day period included some pretty nasty weather. It is highly likely he passed away before the alarm was raised. That is possibly why the family have been so aggressive towards the search etc. I think they probably feel very guilty that no one realised he was missing for a week. The easiest way to deal with that guilt and grief is to lash out and blame others. Perhaps the search could have been better, but the chances of him being found alive would have been massively improved if he had told someone where he was going, or if his family / friends had raised the alarm sooner. There are always lessons for the rest of us in tragedies like this.

[Turfa]

That is one of the bizarre aspects of this situation...the family insists that the search continue as he may be still alive due to his "cold weather survival training" and that he is an "experienced hiker", but he seems to have made just about every novice mistake possible. He doesn't tell anyone he is going. He goes out solo with no PLB. He enters an alpine area in winter in inadequate clothing (reports say he was wearing jeans !!) and doesn't appear to have taken any gear other than a phone and a water bottle........

If anyone I knew got themselves into trouble like this I would be extremely grateful for any S&R efforts to find them considering that they did nothing to help themselves

It is interesting to note that the very aggressive PR from the family seems to have prevented any comments in the media about how ill-prepared he was

[Mark F]

Another problem he would have faced is that being from the Northern Hemisphere, his sense of direction is reversed down here. In a whiteout, if he thought he was heading East he most probably would be heading west. I know that when I walk in the Northern hemisphere I have to be really vigilant about this and not trust my (generally very good) sense of direction.

[Strider]

That is one of the bizarre aspects of this situation...the family insists that the search continue as he may be still alive due to his "cold weather survival training" and that he is an "experienced hiker", but he seems to have made just about every novice mistake possible. He doesn't tell anyone he is going. He goes out solo with no PLB. He enters an alpine area in winter in inadequate clothing (reports say he was wearing jeans !!) and doesn't appear to have taken any gear other than a phone and a water bottle........

If anyone I knew got themselves into trouble like this I would be extremely grateful for any S&R efforts to find them considering that they did nothing to help themselves

It is interesting to note that the very aggressive PR from the family seems to have prevented any comments in the media about how ill-prepared he was

And to make matters even worse, the family are encouraging others to potentially make the same mistakes!

[Travis22]

I really dont know what to say. I cannot help but think of the missing fellow years ago in the desert and the media circus that followed. Private American trackers flown into the outback etc... Quite an amazing tale, and he was found alive.

I think it was very wrong of this mans family to offer up a reward, specially at this time when the weather is most likely only going to get worse and with the use of social media i dare say the majority of their audience is going to be unprepared individuals or groups simply interested in the money alone.

I honestly feel extremely sorry for their loss and heartbreak and under the right circumstances id be more then happy to help. I have been out looking after the searchers we called off for Warren Meyer around Mt Dom Dom telling the family at the start i wouldn't accept any reward, the thought of them never having a body to bury breaks my heart. The same went for David Prideaux.

As a deer stalker myself his story hit very close to home. In both cases the fact that neither bodies have been recovered goes to show just how thick, rugged and unforgiving our mountains are, either that or they didnt want to be found. Unless you are experience at off track navigation and venture yourself off-track often, then IMO sending even experienced 'bushwalkers' out into these kinds of area's is a recipe for disaster.

Travis.

[wayno]

the family obviously want closure as soon as possible. but the reality be it may not be till the snow melts till they get closure if at all. in the meantime they want people to go out searching for what is turning into an extremely difficult task to complete

[Lindsay]

I feel very sorry for this mans family and their grief in understandable, however they are now starting to lose my sympathy with the way they are criticising the authorities and foolishly encouraging ill prepared people to risk themselves for a reward. The whole reward concept does not sit well with our tradition of assisting those in need without thought of personal gain, however this seems to be a foreign concept to these people, who seem to think that money will solve this problem. A cultural issue here I think.

[GPSGuided]

Another problem he would have faced is that being from the Northern Hemisphere, his sense of direction is reversed down here. In a whiteout, if he thought he was heading East he most probably would be heading west. I know that when I walk in the Northern hemisphere I have to be really vigilant about this and not trust my (generally very good) sense of direction.

Huh? You can't be serious right?

[FatCanyoner]

Another problem he would have faced is that being from the Northern Hemisphere, his sense of direction is reversed down here. In a whiteout, if he thought he was heading East he most probably would be heading west. I know that when I walk in the Northern hemisphere I have to be really vigilant about this and not trust my (generally very good) sense of direction.

Huh? You can't be serious right?

Yep, absolutely accurate. I often come across experienced walkers from the northern hemisphere who occasionally become turned around, and it's always a full 180 degrees off. It took me a while to work out why it was happening.

The reality is that most of our instinctive sense of direction is based on a lifetime of learnt hints that we pick up from nature. We don't usually consciously notice them, but our subconscious is totally switched on to them. For instance, in winter, in Australia, the sun's path across the sky is in the north. So in the middle of the day in winter, walking towards the sun will basically take you north. In this blokes homeland, the sun in winter is in the south. So all those little 'tells' your mind spots -- where your shadow falls, the feel of the sun on your cheek etc -- are totally reversed. And if you're north is wrong, your east and west are swapped too! Sure, a magnetic compass might point north from anywhere on earth (although, look at a map of the earths magnetic field and you'll see how much that varies too!) but almost every other natural hint to direction reverses with hemispheres. Right down to which side of a hill will be moistest / which side of a rock will have more moss / lichen etc.

Of course none of this matters when you're "GPS Guided"