"Exploring the Jagungal Wilderness"

[kanangra]

Just one other thing I should mention, The Toolong Range 1:25,000 sheet shows an old track leading down to the junction of the Doubtful Ck with the Tumut River from the east. I could find no trace of this at least where the map shows it leaving the Doubtful Gap Trail. This is strange because it doesn't show the main track through Doubtful Gap which very much exists on the ground?

K.

[rcaffin]

It might be better to say the track goes up from the junction to the ridge. However, after the fires of 2003 it did become a bit less obvious. We came up it in March 2016, and once or twice in previous years as well. It was visible in some places last year, and 'not so much' in other places. Now, finding where it joins the 4WD track on top - that could be difficult. I can't even remember whether there was a cairn at the roadside. You would have to navigate.

As for there being some tracks on the ground which are not on the topos - yeah, happens.

Cheers
Roger

[RVG]

Hi Kanangra

Several attempts have been made to find this track. Greg Hutchison had a good look for it and there have been several other trip reports which mention it.

By and large we have to look on it as one of those other tracks which have gone. As such it is a reminder that if the remaining tracks are not used they will disappear also.

I have added the SMA Tooma map 1 mile to 1 inch which shows the track you are talking about.

[RVG]

Incidentally, there is meant to be good fishing in that area.

[MeanderingFlyFisher]

Robert,you know how to get my attention.I am lurking on this topic all the time for ideas and will be in the area next week
All the usual signs say there should be some good fishing but not sure how close to the Tumut-Doubtful Creek junction we will get.
I really enjoy reading and re-reading your book and can't wait for the sequel "Exploring the Jagungal wilderness with a fly rod in hand" or perhaps I should write that one

[RVG]

Hi MF

Are you visiting this summer? Actually I had you in the back of my mind when I posted that little enticer.

I have always thought that Doubtful Creek looked like good water all the way up as far as Cesjacks and even above it, but I remember reading in some of the log books about decent fish being caught down at the Tumut end.

I know that Greg Hutchison tried to find that old track starting from Round Mtn and found that going from the valley of Doubtful Creek up to that track along the ridge was scrubby. Roger would have a better idea how to get into the junction. Starting at Round Mountain and following the river down seems to be the logical way.

Robert

[MeanderingFlyFisher]

Robert
We will be heading to fish Doubtful Creek in the vicinity of Grey mare trail going in on the farm ridge trail from Round mountain, not sure at this stage whether we head upstream to fish to Cesjacks or meander downstream and then fish back upstream.We will be there late next week for a few days as there looks to be plenty of creeks that I want to try in the vicinity.

[rcaffin]

Roger would have a better idea how to get into the junction. Starting at Round Mountain and following the river down seems to be the logical way.
Yes, you can walk down the Tumut. There seems to be a bit of a fishermans track running along the river bank - probably on the S side as I remember. You have to get around the panhandle somehow - going over it may be fastest. Well, that is at least possible. The down-river side is a bit steep, but it's OK.
Or you can get there by coming down the spur from the middle of Farm Ridge. There's a volcanic plug at the big bend in the ridge - great lumps of basalt. The view from the knoll at the end is good.

7279.jpg (338.84 KiB) Viewed 36272 times

This is near the bottom of the spur at the junction. The foot of the spur going up Round Mt is just visible at the middle of the right hand edge.
Doubtful Creek is a bit narrow upstream. Could be 'interesting' coming down it. Nearby Bogong Creek is very much a harsh gorge near the bottom.

Cheers
Roger

[MeanderingFlyFisher]

Thanks Roger,Doubtful Creek looks really fishy in that photo

[RVG]

MF

It's a fair distance following Doubtful Creek up to Cesjacks and back starting at Round Mountain. It might be best to investigate the river over two trips, with the lower part near the junction of the Tumut R and Doubtful Creek being accessed from Round Mountain and the second part, upstream from the Grey Mare Fire Trail, being accessed from Cesjacks via the Snowy Plains Fire Trail.

That would also make sense from a seasonal point of view, with the deeper water of the Tumut/Doubtful junction being fished in summer and the upper reaches in either autumn or Spring.

Last year you posted a good report on the upper Geehi, so that might be one chapter of your book with this summer's effort being Chapter 2.

[rcaffin]

Hi MFF
Correction: what you can see in that photo is the Tumut River. Doubtful Ck joins at the bottom right corner and is actually masked in this photo by the nearside bank. The DC valley is much narrower than the TR valley. I am sure there are Galaxia in the DC, but I have reservations about finding anything larger. This is what the (geologically) nearby Bogong Ck looks like:

7253.jpg (189.5 KiB) Viewed 36242 times

Not a lot of fishy pools. The Tumut on the other hand is, I am sure, fished.
Cheers
Roger

[Mark F]

Just before Christmas at Witzes Hut I was at talking to some researchers from UC studying galaxiids in KNP. Apparently glaxiids only survive in the top end of waterways where there is a serious physical barrier such as a waterfall or very dense marsh to prevent trout reaching the area. Because of seasonal drying in the upper reaches of streams, only streams fed by springs or extensive bogs tend to hold galaxiids as they do not dry out.

As for where trout can reach, on the same trip in the little tributary of Bogong Creek where the fire trail crosses at the bottom of the descent from Farm Ridge, I watched a 30cm trout swimming in a minute pool on the upstream side of the ft.

[Sonja and Jakob]

To what extent should walking tracks be managed within the Jagungal Wilderness?

... The justification for doing some minimal work is:

1. To enable access by walkers to areas of the Park which are becoming inaccessible. (Walkers are enthusiastic supporters of the National Park system.) ...

3. These tracks have a rich heritage value having been used by graziers, miners and others within historic times. Like the huts, these tracks need to be preserved.

4. The probability is that some of these tracks were also used by the original inhabitants to access the higher mountain areas in even earlier times, like the Bundian Way.

5. This minimal work will also open up circuit and other walks which will lead to greater enjoyment and knowledge of what the Park has to offer.

For us, these points are the main reasons to support the idea. However, quite some politics might be involved. During our last stay at Valentine Hut in December 2016, fellow bushwalkers had the story that the Australian Defense had offered to clear the popular, but vastly overgrown Hannel Spur Trail. This, they said, was turned down by NPWS for some reason their administration did not provide.

It would be the usual, vast effort, but that should not deter anyone in favor of fine and history-minded walking in the high country: Find out about interest groups and their stakes, collect their pros and cons, and provide it to forums like this one and to decision-makers.

In short, we see mainly the conflict between the principle that Wilderness Areas and establishing trails within them do not match, and the point Robert makes that former vehicle tracks, trails, drives for cattle etc. do form a part our history, worth preserving, no matter if the area they are located in is classified as "Wilderness" or not.

To collect opinions about how relevant this conflict is and how it possibly can be solved, would be a good start.

[kanangra]

Robert,

That old map is very interesting. The track around Far Bald Mt and down to the Tumut has been reproduced on the Toolong Range 1:25k sheet without any field revision I would suspect. Your map does show an old track through Doubtful Gap which is interesting and also Boobee Hut below Far Bald Mt. (though not named on the map). It also shows another hut near the bottom, presumably Mackeys Hut.

K.

[rcaffin]

in the little tributary of Bogong Creek where the fire trail crosses at the bottom of the descent from Farm Ridge, I watched a 30cm trout swimming in a minute pool on the upstream side of the ft.
Really??? I have trouble imagining how it got there - unless it came as fish eggs on a duck's feet. If it swam ... it would have needed a bit of rain. Hum - or during the thaw maybe. Oh well - bet it does not have to many contacts with the rest of the fishy world, anyhow.

an old track through Doubtful Gap which is interesting
The one going E-W across DG is not there any more. We looked and saw pretty well nothing. There is a good FT across DG up to Far Bald of course, which does not seem to get onto most maps. Nice ski route too.

Boobee Hut - yep, that's Boobee. The track to it from the NE is not what you might call particularly noticeable, although I think traces can still be seen in some places.

Cheers
Roger

[kanangra]

Roger,

I can confirm the track into Boobee from the north east is still fairly clear on the ground most of the way in from the Happy Jacks Hwy.

K

[MeanderingFlyFisher]

Some interesting thoughts on trout and where they are found but you would be surprised at places and sizes of streams in which they are found in the high country.Galaxids are another story and would enjoy expanding on both topics as I have theories based on practical experience but unfortunately (fortunately for me)I am packing the ute tonight to head off in the morning to research the second chapter in my book
Point taken Robert about the length of Doubtful Creek and was just thinking about keeping my options open and just fishing a couple of 2-3km stretches(about a days fishing) along the length of the river.We are planning to camp either Farm ridge ruins or Okeefes area and fish all the small creeks within 5 or so KM's with the possibility(after you planting the seed) of fishing near Tumut-Doubtful junction on the way back to Round mountain if we had time.I am always after Plan B,C,D and gleefully accept all suggestions.

[rcaffin]

Hi Kanangra
Well, we saw a few bits of it in Mar-2016 as we got near the hut, but that's all. But we did come from the big culvert bridge to the S of where the map shows the track taking off, so it is possible that we simply missed it by being too far to the S.
I guess they must have brought a couple of 4WDs in when they were working on the hut after the fires.
Cheers
Roger

[RVG]

Hi Kanangra

Google Earth is an overlooked resource for finding old tracks and locations. Boobee is an interesting example.

Go into Google Earth, locate Boobee Hut and and click on the View Menu. Click on Historical Imagery and a slider bar comes up on the screen. That gives different options as to which satellite image you want to look at.
In the case of Boobee click on the oldest image. That image is quite dark, but the track into Boobee all the way through to the road comes up crystal clear.

Robert

[rcaffin]

Yeah, but what Google Earth also shows is just how fast regrowth, even of grass, can make a track disappear. Go from 2011 to 2015 and several tracks just vanish. And we didn't even see them on the ground in 2016.
Incidentally, I can just make out traces of the track from Far Bald down to the Tumut/Doubtful junction on the 2011 photos - but you need to know where to look. Gone in later photos.
Google Earth: one of the world's greatest consumers of time!
Cheers
Roger

[RVG]

Okay, let's take it one step further.

Let's assume that you want to find the way into Boobee from the road and are having trouble finding that old, slowly disappearing, track.

Set Google Earth so that it is showing UTM locations in the bottom right hand corner. Now click on the track that has shown up on the historical imagery and record the UTM positions of strategic spots along it, like where it leaves the road, bends, creek crossings and so on.

Voila, you now have a GPS route from Happy Jacks Rd into Boobee.

[rcaffin]

Aaarrrggghhh!
*&^%$#@! GPS !@#$%^&*
Who needs a GPS when they have a map and compass? We just navigated from the big bridge on Happy Jacks Rd and came out spot on. We don't carry a GPS - we don't need one.
Actually, we went from the Tabletop FT down to Happys, across to Brooks, then on to Boobee and Doubtful Gap by compass, with no tracks. Very pleasant walking.

7613.jpg (226.3 KiB) Viewed 36133 times

(Coming in to Brooks from the N, Jagungal with snow in the background.)
mumble mumble GPS mumble mumble ...


Cheers
Roger

[RVG]

To what extent should walking tracks be managed within the Jagungal Wilderness?

... The justification for doing some minimal work is:

1. To enable access by walkers to areas of the Park which are becoming inaccessible. (Walkers are enthusiastic supporters of the National Park system.) ...

3. These tracks have a rich heritage value having been used by graziers, miners and others within historic times. Like the huts, these tracks need to be preserved.

4. The probability is that some of these tracks were also used by the original inhabitants to access the higher mountain areas in even earlier times, like the Bundian Way.

5. This minimal work will also open up circuit and other walks which will lead to greater enjoyment and knowledge of what the Park has to offer.

For us, these points are the main reasons to support the idea. However, quite some politics might be involved.

In short, we see mainly the conflict between the principle that Wilderness Areas and establishing trails within them do not match, and the point Robert makes that former vehicle tracks, trails, drives for cattle etc. do form a part our history, worth preserving, no matter if the area they are located in is classified as "Wilderness" or not.

Those are the reasons why the old tracks need to be preserved and the matter is getting a degree of urgency because, as several walkers have reported, we are losing some important tracks fairly rapidly.

There is now widespread community acceptance that the historic huts and homesteads of the Jagungal Wilderness are worth protecting. And in recent years NPWS has gone out of its way to maintain huts like Kidmans and Valentine which were needing a fair bit of work. Those works were done in addition to the replacement of huts destroyed in the 2003 fires.

Elsewhere at some of the historic homesteads within the Jagungal Wilderness, like Boltons and Napthalis, NPWS have erected very good explanatory panels beside the ruins.

I have broached this subject with NPWS, but can the bushwalking community, especially the clubs, do anything to help raise awareness with NPWS and others about the need to protect the historic bridle trails and dray tracks in the Jagungal Wilderness?

[Mark F]

It would be worth determining the planning status of each track. Some may well fall in the Backcountry Zone rather than the Wilderness Zone and so should provide an easier beachhead in discussions with Parks. The Arsenic Ridge trail appears to be one within the Backcountry Zone but I am playing with an inadequate map. http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/parkmanagement/kosciuszko-zone-map.jpg

[kanangra]

Roger,

I know what you mean. There is nothing like going across country to keep things interesting. There's no telling what you might find. I also liked that shot on the approach to Brookes with Arsenic Ridge behind in the middle distance. Ah time to get back out there. But I might wait for it to cool down a bit.

K.

[RVG]

MFF

Sounds like a good trip. From your trip report I can see that you made it along the Grey Mare Fire Trail to somewhere around Happy Jacks Creek having stopped along the way to suss out the country.

Can we pin you down a little bit and see which creeks held trout. For instance, you mentioned that one decent looking creek had only galaxias. Was that Doubtful? Which was the creek with the steep rock face blocking upstream travel and so on? Any other specifics?

[rcaffin]

Which was the creek with the steep rock face blocking upstream travel
Probably the Tumut, just N of the fire trail. Big face.

Cheers
Roger

[MeanderingFlyFisher]

Roger,in keeping with the forum rules re sensitive areas with no tracks try heading back towards Farm Ridge trail a valley or two.It is surprising sometimes even in tiny streams how much they open up and have some quite large waterfalls.
Just adding a bit to my trip report on another topic and seeing how I mentioned my upcoming trip earlier in this topic I would like to thank everybody who has helped with little titbits of information so I can do my own exploring of the Jagungal wilderness.For what it is worth the hike along the lesser used Farm Ridge trail was a joy to walk on apart from the descent and ascent of the Tumut valley.I did find a map in O'Keefes hut by Bush Maps called Round Mountain which shows a few different details than the normal topo maps of the area and found a copy online which I ordered yesterday and look forward to studying more closely to help me piece the puzzle together.I do love paper maps and this one is a beauty.
In closing I urge anybody who is half interested in doing their own exploring to do there homework and get out there.You just never know what you will find.

[MeanderingFlyFisher]

One further thing I did notice a copy of Robert's book in Okeefes but there wasn't one in Mackeys which would have been handy for us as I didn't have my copy with me and we ended up going further NE than we originally planned in search of small creeks with the potential for trout.As we had walked off my paper map we were going by Warnsey' iphone maps and I just don't get electronic maps we may have explored McGregors Creek and surrounds instead of walking past.

[RVG]

Hi Kanangra

Just to throw a little more light on the old track through Doubtful Gap the extract from the Tooma map below shows where it goes.

The same map also shows a track from part way along Farm Ridge, across the Tumut and up to somewhere near Derschkos. That track is very likely part of the old goldminers track which gave access to the Kiandra Diggings from the south during the 1860s.