Hunting in some NSW National Parks

[wearthefoxhat]

We shot 7 foxes between 2009 and 2011. There has not been another fox sighting since. We would know if they are around because they go straight to the chook house.

Nah, they are probably in the National Park down the Rd........

Ha lol your probably right lol.

[maddog]

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/an ... 099546.jpg

Looks like a nice property Foxhat. I wouldn't have guessed you were a pig farmer. Hope you don't let them escape onto public land.

There isn't really a pig problem up my way, its mostly wild-dogs, though I believe that there were a few living in a swamp close to Ballina. From memory they dropped 1080 from the air and dealt with the problem. The last time I spotted wild-pigs was over the Xmas break, on the 6 Foot Track. Crown lands and State Forest tenure, recreational hunting permitted. A young family of pigs noticed us us as we walked past, and casually trotted off into the woodland.

The DPI have useful information on pigs. From a quick look it seems many individual pigs form part of a 'doomed-surplus'. Apparently pigs are spreading around the State due to deliberate release. Why would a person would do this?

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/p ... ig-biology

Cheers

[wearthefoxhat]

Releasing pigs is environmental vandalism . Nothing less.
Usually the higher the humane population the lower the pig population purely because of exposure to being shot.

I would suggest the young family of pigs you saw that casually walked off were released pigs considering their response to you. True wild pigs in my experience would never let you get that close unless by accident in which case they would have scrambled out of there like lightning.

I guess the impossible dream would be Aussie bush with zero ferals. I would love to see the transition. I would really love to see the bower birds and bush turkeys return back to the state forest that we frequent. Unfortunately the foxes have the upper hand and it is illegal for us to hunt them. sad thing is the state do nothing either...
It's like sitting back watching a genocide knowing you could help but it's illegal to do so... Even if you did you would be branded a redneck ,a murderer, a poacher and compared to the mad man from Port Arthur by the extreme greens.

History will show these extremes to have contributed to Australia's enviromental degradation.

Cheers

[maddog]

Not at all Foxhat,

The DPI recommend baiting or aerial shooting of pigs as a primary control measure. To use the Ballina swamp as an example:

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/media ... 121104.htm

But the DPI also endorse follow-up measures such as ground shooting and trapping as secondary control, all part of an integrated feral pig management plan. However, they note that:

Ground shooting should not be conducted prior to, or during, any other program of control, as it disrupts normal feral pig activity and may cause feral pigs to temporarily disperse to other areas.

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/p ... ig-control

I would be very surprised if volunteer shooters are not welcomed by the DPI as part of the solution within State Forests and Crown Lands into the future. They will likely be utilised as a secondary control measure under an integrated program, and their contribution appreciated.

Cheers

[wearthefoxhat]

Hi Maddog, Yes rec shooters will be able to assist NP's but I actually think this is set up to fail.
It is looking like the red tape involved for a shooter to get involved is enormous. I know many would like to get involved but I think the hoops and cost will take the incentive away for many.
Under the game council there were similar operations.. no one got hurt most importantly the public.
If they don't get the shooter support then the greenies will preach that shooters never had conservation in mind in the first instance and off course the greens will never look at the entire picture... but then telling lies and half truths is how they win votes and donations if the ISC is anything to go by.

Interesting read and video... The doctrine of Hate by Garry Mallard OAM

Some of these green need to be put on the feral pest list...

http://thehunterstand.blogspot.com.au/2 ... -hate.html

As for the DPI...yes they do some good work but unfortunately they aren't keeping up with this problem which is evident by increasing
numbers state wide... I know farmers who have contacted them for help and receive almost nothing but advice. Interestingly one family who had a deer problem approached our hunting club on the advice from memory the DPI.

Gotta fly..for now

[wearthefoxhat]

Ok plane delayed...
Another point about organised hunts under the NP's. I speak for myself and many other hunters in saying this is not "hunting" in the true sense of the word. It is organised culling and having your hand held by a NP's ranger who in many cases will have less experience
than many hunters who will have many decades experience. You will have to trust me that I know this with out giving too much away..
You could liken the scenario to bushwalkers would only be able to enter a NP with a guide holding your hand and a group walking in single file.
From a hunters point of view it is loss of freedom to practice your experience and instincts. So hunting IMO is not the right description,,, it is an organised cull..

cheers

[forest]

I would suggest the young family of pigs you saw that casually walked off were released pigs considering their response to you. True wild pigs in my experience would never let you get that close unless by accident in which case they would have scrambled out of there like lightning.

Foxhat, I can't help but comment on this one. I'm not sure how "experienced" you are but labeling those pigs released is a big leap. Actually a massive leap. The Blue Mountains has a pretty decent feral pig population, but I guess someone could have dropped those few off prior to Maddog walking past
Whilst a running flight response might be the norm from "true wild pigs" trotting off is pretty standard from what I have seen. Unless your throwing lead at them or something else threatening or someone has done so in the past.
I've seen pigs from super flighty, running to the sound of a vehicle off in the distance to dosile mobs that will continue eating as you drive past. All this in the same large paddock the same day. Pigs will roam a massive area and travel a long way for a feed. It could just come down to where the had come from the night before.
It will depend on how much exposure they have had with humans, and what type of exposure that was. ie; getting shot at or chased vs just people wandering past leaving them alone.

I enjoy this forum as a bushwalking site and try, I really do to stay away from the hunting topics. I know I'm failing again.
But I am a keen hunter and spend a large amount of time locally out with a rifle. All on private land though, mostly owned by family, some which are pro shooters.
The land owners I deal with think most shooters do a good job, but they have all had dealings with poachers and fools too.
One thing that I have found out though is that it's all fine for me to go out and shoot some ferals every few weeks. But in between mine or others visits they trap and bait too.
The old cocky might not have a degree in pest management but half the time, unknown to them they are running a system that controls the ferals.

I really think that you have made your point on DST and I aplaude that as it was one I didn't have time to research enough previously. I wholeheartedly agree with you.

But and it's a big but the feral animal management system in our NP's does need to be a "managed" system. Shooters can and should be used in this but as part of the solution, not the be and end all solution.

They will likely be utilised as a secondary control measure under an integrated program, and their contribution appreciated

That's where we need to head and it's looking like it might happen. But like foxhat commented if they bundle to much red tape around it the whole thing will end up a waste of time and tax payers money.

I've said this before, at the end of the day something needs to be done controlling ferals on our public land. We are moving in a better direction now.
I hate walking in the NP's and spotting the damage done by pigs or seeing foxes and feral cats.

It will be a hard road though as the NP's are not like private land that's often cleared and you can drive around in. Lot's of footwork will be required.
The walking part shouldn't be an issue on this forum though.
My prediction is that a lot of R license hunters will be keen for NP access. But that might dwindle when they actually get on the ground and see how thick some places are.

[forest]

So hunting IMO is not the right description,,, it is an organised cull..
cheers

Exactly.
NP's are meant to be a prestine place for all to enjoy. Not a playground for us hunters.
The whole "conservation hunting" thing is directed around hunters wishing to remove ferals.
It should have nothing to do with a spiritual journey or whatever you wish to get in the process. It's about getting a job done.
This is turning more and more into a S&F party line of thought.

Organised culls are fine by me. Safer to the public if the area's closed off and more ferals should be removed.

[Nuts]

Lol, yes, and there is the crunch. It obviously didn't suit anybodies purposes to tell it like it is.

All the focus on politics and high ideals when there is this group of people who just wanted to hunt. Can't really blame them, that is their chosen hobby not conservation. As is bushwalking- high horses aside- a chosen hobby... with some impact- not conservation.

Imagine a sensitive area, tracks closed to bushwalking because the impact is too great. Then allow a certain group of walkers restricted access under tedious permits for the sole purpose of volunteer trackwork, nothing else.. Perhaps have them wear blinkers so the view is also restricted. A useful decision by (possibly for) the minister perhaps and grudgingly carried out by park staff. Not particularly effective or efficient, just going through the exercise.

What a load of ol cobblers

[maddog]

As I mentioned in passing, the problem in my area is wild-dogs. In my occupation, I spend a great deal of time outdoors, and cover a full range of land tenure. The agricultural landscape includes some cropping, but is mostly beef and dairy. Though I have have been told by one farmer that they had a problem with wild-dogs and calves, most have downplayed this concern. One I came across, denied the threat to her cattle was significant, though she had recently witnessed a cow with newly born calf being molested by wild-dogs. Much to her surprise, the dogs were interested in the afterbirth, the cow and calf were unharmed. I suppose there are easier targets for wild dogs than calves with large protective mothers.

This situation can be contrasted with the threat to domestic dogs. I have heard many accounts of wild dogs habitually entering properties on the verge of bushland (NP, SF, Crown), seemingly with the sole intent of attacking domestic dogs. The result of is death, serious damage, or vet bills. One elderly lady had noticed that after the logging of a pine plantation a couple of kilometres away, wild-dogs had become common on her property. Se had a small dog, and was concerned for its welfare. Another living next to a national park, the owner of two dogs (a pit bull and chinese fighting dog), has incurred thousands of dollars in vet bills. Yet another had a dog go missing after a thunderstorm and seemed resigned to the idea that there was no hope, as there were wild-dogs patrolling the area.

But from none of these landowners have I witnessed bile directed towards the NPWS. The pattern tends to be that the dogs become a problem (every few years), the neighbours and NPWS discuss the issue, baiting commences, perhaps a little shooting, and the problem disappears.

I also deal with NPWS in my vocational capacity, and the interests of the organisation I represent differ from those of the service. I have found them reasonable to deal with, albeit some more than others. As an important stakeholder, I do not go out of my way to insult them, question their integrity, or competence. Nor have I reason to do so. In our dealings they have priorities, so do I. We compromise and the job gets done.

As for the involvement of volunteer shooters within national parks, they will be considered where local circumstances require their involvement. It may the interests of conservation, it may be a desire to be a good neighbour. Some volunteers will be picked before others. Locals with an understanding of, and commitment to, conservation issues will no doubt the preferred option. Outsiders with a pathological hatred of 'extreme greens' will no doubt be left in the cold.

Cheers

[wayno]

are they any particular breed of dog? mongrells? part dingo?

[wearthefoxhat]

Forest... My experience with pigs deer and some foxes is often they are un fazed by a vehicle but if you stop and get out of the vehicle and they can make out your shape or smell they are gone at a rapid rate of knots. This is my experience.
Its something we often talk about at camp jokingly that our camo should be shaped like a vehicle and we would get much closer.

Perhaps what needs to be considered is the frequency that pigs see or more importantly smell humans (their eyesight is not that great). Perhaps they smell a humane and don't associate that with fear so much in a place where humans frequent but put no pressure on pigs... Just a theory and I think you are right this topic has been done to death..

cheers

[wearthefoxhat]

are they any particular breed of dog? mongrells? part dingo?

All of the above..multi sizes, multi colours, multi breeds and strong and clever as hell...

Wayno... are they still rounding up those mountain horses... Kaimanowa (spelling?) something like that. Shame they can't adopt the same model for those poor buggers in the NT that are going to be shot..

[wayno]

they do roundups of the kaimanawa horses every few years, from my understanding
might depend on issues like disease and how used to humans the horses are as to whether horses are rounded up in different places

http://www.kaimanawa.com/news.shtml

[wearthefoxhat]

Invasive Species Council has been out foxed again...

This time by research and the second largest study worldwide...

http://www.theland.com.au/news/agricult ... 64495.aspx

[Tony]

Invasive Species Council has been out foxed again...

This time by research and the second largest study worldwide...

http://www.theland.com.au/news/agricult ... 64495.aspx

Foxhat, I am not sure what your point is, it is the hunting and shooter organisations that are steadfast against baiting, not the Invasive Species Council. It is the Invasive Species Council that has pointed out that it is actually hunting that is ineffective against feral animal control.

[wearthefoxhat]

Tony.. It is yourself and the invasive species council that push the "doomed surplus" and "Kill it and 5 will take its place" theories. Or in your case going one step further and imply do nothing and feral populations will reduce on there own.
This study actually shows the opposite. Kill a wild dog and it is probable fox and cat populations won't increase in fact they could decrease...
But it was only going to be a matter of time before these theories/myths were busted.. The ISC don't have much credibility in feral control as this study has shown.
Hunting will always be a contribution to feral control...

[Tony]

Tony.. It is yourself and the invasive species council that push the "doomed surplus" and "Kill it and 5 will take its place" theories. Or in your case going one step further and imply do nothing and feral populations will reduce on there own.
This study actually shows the opposite. Kill a wild dog and it is probable fox and cat populations won't increase in fact they could decrease...
But it was only going to be a matter of time before these theories/myths were busted.. The ISC don't have much credibility in feral control as this study has shown.
Hunting will always be a contribution to feral control...

Most amusing foxhat, in this debate it is the hunters that have the credibility problem, the Dunn report showed that, the ISC have always said that hunting can have a contribution if is hunting done in conjunction with a proper feral animal control programs.

As you seem to be an expert on foxes what is your estimate of fox numbers in the 20,000 odd sq kilometers of NSW State Forests.

Tony

[maddog]

Foxhat,

The results of Allen's latest paper suggests that the 'mesopredator release' hypothesis (not Errington's 'doomed surplus' concept), is of limited application in situations where baiting results in a reduction in apex predator numbers (e.g. the wild-dog), with a simultaneous reduction in mesopredator numbers (e.g. the fox), because both species were taking the baits intended for the dingo:

Our findings are in accord with what is known from other predator manipulation experiments worldwide: fauna at lower trophic levels are unlikely to respond positively to lethal control where multiple predators are removed (i.e. dingoes and foxes in our case), where the efficacy of predator removal is low (i.e. where predator populations quickly recover), and where the fauna are not the primary prey species of the predator [18]. That fox populations did not respond positively to poison-baiting is intuitive given that they are widely known to consume baits intended for dingoes and have similar rates of increase to dingoes (e.g. [19,56,57]). ‘Dingo baiting programs’ should therefore be better thought of as ‘dingo and/or fox baiting programs’ or ‘canid baiting programs’. It is theoretically possible that mesopredators may have increased in response to the removal of dingoes but that this response was masked by the fact that mesopredators may also have been simultaneously removed by baiting.
...
Our findings do not contradict mesopredator release theory, but merely indicate that contemporary dingo control practices do not produce the conditions required to generate a mesopredator release effect.

The paper is available here:

http://www.frontiersinzoology.com/conte ... -10-39.pdf

[maddog]

An interesting opinion piece in yesterdays Herald. It is suggested that Premier O'Farrell may never have intended to provide the Shooters with a free for all in National Parks, but only 'an expanded professional pest eradication program' such as the one we have seen announced.

And while the Shooters Party are displeased with the outcome, a limited but rational pest eradication program utilising the services of conservation minded volunteers, their anger may stem from the damage that has been done to their credibility. After all, the Shooters boast that they could get things done for rogues has been shown to be hollow.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/ofarrell- ... 2qph5.html

[Nuts]

It was a radical move- don't know about 'conservation' hunting, permits to operate a certain distance in from park boundaries (eg to farm land) could have been considered long ago, especially where management funding just wasn't happening or likely. Would still be a good place to start, perhaps finish. That would access a lot of feral species.

[wearthefoxhat]

NSW DPI minister wants hunting back ASAP


NSW minister wants hunters back asap...



NSW Primary Industries Minister Katrina Hodgkinson says she wants amateur shooters back in the state's national forests as soon as possible.

She told parliamentary question time on Tuesday that volunteer hunting in all 400 state forests was still on hold, pending the outcome of a risk assessment.
But she wants to return to business as usual as soon as possible.

"It is our intention to restore volunteer hunting in state forests to control feral animals as quickly as possible, and in a manner that's as similar as possible to previous procedures," Ms Hodgkinson said.
She told parliament an eight-member game and pest management advisory board would be set up to represent hunters' interests, direct research and advise government.
The establishment of the board was among the recommendations of a scathing review of the NSW Game Council by public servant Steve Dunn.

In response to the review, the council was scrapped and its staff are being transferred to the Department of Primary Industries.
Meanwhile, the functions previously carried out by the Game Council are being transferred to the Director-General of the Department of Trade and Investment, Regional Infrastructure and Services, which will be the new regulatory authority in line with the Dunn review recommendations, Ms Hodgkinson said on Tuesday.

A trial of hunting in 12 national parks is set to begin in October under the direction of the National Parks and Wildlife Service.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...ters-back-asap


Report

[wearthefoxhat]

Greens Not Happy as We Get Great News on Public Land Access



Seems all the hard work and pressure we have put on the ministers and the parliamentary reps has paid big dividends and of course the greens are not happy. read David Shoebridge's response to the announcement made in Parliament today.

More details on the overall outcome for us hunters will be broguht to light as they come to hand. So far so good though. Woohoo


Media Release: Government fails to legislate to protect National Parks from amateur hunters

11 September 2013



The O'Farrell Government has today failed to deliver on its promise to properly protect National Parks from unsupervised amateur hunting and has signalled it will continue to promote hunting with scarce tax dollars.



The Game and Feral Animal Control Amendment Bill 2013 was introduced to parliament today and provides for the abolition of the Game Council as well as creating a new hunter-dominated board to advise government.



Greens MP and Firearms Spokesperson David Shoebridge said:



"The Premier promised that under his new scheme the protections for the public would be the strongest in the country, but this bill fails to deliver that.



"With this Bill there is no requirement that amateur hunters on any public land be professionally supervised.



"The newly created advisory board risks repeating the past failures of the Game Council by being dominated by hunters and excluding animal welfare and firearms safety experts.



"The bill continues a legislative scheme that promotes hunting of deer and native water birds, all it has done is put the Department of Primary Industries in charge rather than the Game Council.



"While the abolition of the failed Game Council is a real positive, it should not just be replaced with a government department that is given the same pro-hunter agenda.



"This legislation retains the concept of 'game animals' and the ongoing promotion of amateur hunting, despite the fact that this unnecessarily diverts attention from professional and effective methods of feral animal control.



"The community in NSW has made it known that it opposes unsupervised amateur hunting in our State Forests and National Parks but it seems the Government has still not gotten the memo.



"The abolition of the Game Council remains a positive step by this government, and an achievement that the community should be proud of. Now is the time to build on that achievement not back away from it," Mr Shoebridge said.



Media contact: 9230 3030



David Shoebridge

Greens MP in the NSW Legislative Council

P: (02) 9230 3030 T: @ShoebridgeMLC<http://twitt

[wearthefoxhat]

This Shoebridge quote I find rather amusing..

""The community in NSW has made it known that it opposes unsupervised amateur hunting in our State Forests and National Parks but it seems the Government has still not gotten the memo."

Ah... really... If that was the case why did the anti hunting rallies attract so few people?
The State Govnuts probably looked at the memo and realised it was more baseless Green propaganda.

[wearthefoxhat]

There are many who think feral animal control should be left to the professional helicopter culls..

This is just one example of that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL9KlLqL1bI

There are many stories from hunters who have seen similar to this on pig and deer culls... *&%$#! disgusting...

My argument is... if recreational hunters were allowed to hunt Brumbies in these areas would they have got to these damaging populations... certainly not...

[GPSGuided]

My argument is... if recreational hunters were allowed to hunt Brumbies in these areas would they have got to these damaging populations... certainly not...

Or the hunters never worked hard enough last time when they were allowed and left such a big population. Who's to say they again won't shoot enough to eradicate.

[sambar358]

GPS....I think that you'll find that feral horses enjoy a level of protection from recreational hunters or at least they always have in Victoria and I would expect that the same would apply to them in NSW. Here (in Vic) while they are classed as "feral" in the sense that they are an introduced species acknowledged for having a negative impact on the environment when their numbers are high....but they also have a level of protection from recreational hunting not given to our other feral animals. Recenty the Vic Govt. re-affirmed this status following the discovery of several fresh-shot feral horses in East Gipplsand which attracted some attention from the news media for a few days. Certainly hunting of feral horses has never been condoned by government departments in Vic and I would think that the same would apply to NSW so essentially recreational hunters have never had the opportunity to have any impact on feral horse numbers in Vic and I expect in NSW as well.

Most deer hunters I know would be reluctant to be involved in ground-shooting feral horses as rightly or wrongly they certainly have a protective aura about them likely courtesy of The Man from Snowy River film and the folklore surrounding them that has been built-up over the years. If indeed the feral horse issue is ever to be addressed adequately in regard to their perceived environmental damage then these sympathies need to be set-aside and in reality they should then be treated like any other feral animal that is causing environmental damage on a large scale.....controlled via the most effective & suitable method by those best equipped to do the job. The culling of feral horses has always been a touchy subject that raises a lot of public emotion and that is certainly why Vic & NSW governments have shown a reluctance to address the building feral horse numbers in the high country. However....after watching that vid. from WTFH's earlier post I doubt if we'll be going down the aerial pro-shooting path anytime soon.....or not on a scale that will get the attention of the public like that featured on the vid....but time will tell I guess. Cheers

S358

[GPSGuided]

Thanks for the background Sambar. It's always so complex along with so much indecision.

[maddog]

There are many who think feral animal control should be left to the professional helicopter culls..

This is just one example of that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL9KlLqL1bI

There are many stories from hunters who have seen similar to this on pig and deer culls... *&%$#! disgusting...

My argument is... if recreational hunters were allowed to hunt Brumbies in these areas would they have got to these damaging populations... certainly not...

G'day Fox-hat,

I can't see any government reviving political ghosts by enlisting an unpopular group to ineffectively manage an objectionable cause. Even the most credible and respectable of organisations, the NPWS, could not defend their justifiable cull in Guy Fawkes NP against a rabid heritage-horse lobby (nor has the service employed such a control method since). The flick you provide is a good example of the kind of emotive hysteria produced by self-interested groups of dubious repute.

By way of contrast, the latest edition of Wildlife Research includes an interesting paper on feral pigs depredation of turtle nests in north Queensland:

http://www.publish.csiro.au/nid/144/paper/WR12198.htm

According to the authors, a minority of pigs cause the majority of problems for the turtles. They suggest a combination of targeted baiting and ground shooting may be a cheaper way of dealing with problem pigs than aerial culling. This type of thing looks to be the future of controlled conservation hunting within the NSW National Parks estate (even if the very thought makes Borsak's blood boil). Let us not wallow in the ad-hoc methods of the past, but embrace the future of well managed, targeted and planned pest control.

Cheers

[wearthefoxhat]

"Let us not wallow in the ad-hoc methods of the past, but embrace the future of well managed, targeted and planned pest control. "

Helicopter culling is still widely practiced with similar results to the above video I linked. Its just that no one really cares the same for deer and pigs so the cruelty continues..

Embracing the future methods unfortunately means we can't take our meat out of the bush. It will be left there to rot.. Hunting and culling are quite different. I can't imagine any hunter wanting a NP worker tagging along telling them what to do especially that the NP "hunters" don't particularly have a good reputation in the hunting community for being good hunters.
Under this regime the practice of hunting doesn't do it for me. From a conservation point of view perhaps it is our social responsibility to participate but in my opinion "hunting" is not what it would be...