Hunting in some NSW National Parks

[Pteropus]

This article is short on details but the gist is there -> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 6374185226

This could open up a whole can of worms...

[Pteropus]

A little bit more detail from the Sydney Morning Herald -> http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/premiers-park ... 1ziik.html

[forest]

I am an avid hunter and NSW firearms license holder.

I am also a very keen bushwalker so can kinda sit on the fence and see things from both sides.

I hold a current NSW Game Council "R" license that allows me to hunt in selected NSW forests, Only reason I have an "R" is because I hunt Deer which are "game". An R license costs the same as a "G" which I need for "Game".
Other than that I would not hold the "R" or "G" License. On the off chance.... very, very off I could hunt in a NSW state forest but have no desire to do so.

I'm against the sell off of any state owned assets and feel that this is a dirty deal.

I'm DEAD against shooters in National Parks. We have plenty of space in the State Forests to hunt if need be.
Leave the feral animal control in the NP's to NP's to control. (There is evidence that this can be somewhat lacking in some area's though)
I understand that the NP's & SF's can be a breading ground for pest species that kill native animals, damage our enviroment and agricultural industry.

I'm yet to meet a hunter in a SF locally while walking that has given me huge confidence.......
But law abiding, they have to wear a Blaze orange clothing item so they are visable.

I know for me I'll be wearing my blaze orange hat in a NP or SF that hunters might be in.
After all, they have the boom stick and I never trust anyone I don't know very well for correct target I.D. or firearms handling. Correct License, permit, whatever !!
I feel more testing needs to be undertaken before a shooter is permitted into a public area to hunt. The current testing system is not enough in my eyes. The test is common firearms knowledge with a little policy. Took about 4 minutes.
That's not enough.

I will want to be seen, Great I see the shooter as he's all in blaze orange. But can he see me clearly and will he I.D correctly before squeezing the trigger ??

[anotherwalker]

We only need to look at whats happened in New Zealand in the past (innocent people being shot by incompetent shooters) to see what a stupid idea this is.

Next thing they'll be drilling for CSG in some of these national parks to make a quick dollar.

[Dale]

In order to get the numbers for the electricity privatisation bill the NSW govt is doing a deal with the Shooters Party to allow hunting of feral animals in 79 NSW National Parks. http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1654805/NSW-govt-to-sell-power-generators I'm all for less feral animals, and this is effectively martialing more resources than the govt has with the current practise of employing contract shooters. As a bushwalker I'm also concerned about my safety

What does everyone think ? Is it a good idea ? Does it add risk to walkers ? Is this legal in other States, and if so what's your experience ?

[hikingdude]

Recreational hunters have been hunting in Victorian National Parks for quite a while. It has proven to be very safe and effective down there so I don't see why it should be any different in NSW. In NSW hunters are able to hunt in State Forests, and have been for about a decade, as far as I know there have been no incidents with bushwalkers. All licensed recreational hunters are trained and accredited to hunt in public areas and safety is a top priority.
This legislation allows licensed hunters to access certain, remote areas of National Parks to remove pests. Major thoroughfares and camp grounds are part of exclusion zones and not opened to hunting. The chance of seeing a hunter is almost zilch anyway.

[puredingo]

The only thing in danger here is my job!~ I work for the Electricity Co. and privatisation is NOT the way to go. Check out the stats for Victoria and see the difference. Labour contractors kill the industry dead unlike a lot of these shooting conrtactors who will put a bullet in the guts of a brumby and let it bolt only to take up to a week to die in agony.

[hikingoz]

Duplicate topic: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10020

[Dale]

Oops ! Hopefully the mods can merge...

[jackhinde]

i quite like going for armed bush walks, and would love to do so in some national parks (i already do so in state forests with the r licence). I don't believe it will happen though.

[Pteropus]

I don’t think allowing amateur hunters into National Parks will impact much on feral species and that is not a good arguement for the hunters to be using. Obviously control of feral animals comes down to how much a government is willing to spend on attempts to eradicate them. If the government is making money out of the hunters and the hunters are having a good time hunting, it will be in the interest of both the government and the hunters to keep the game/prey species alive. This is one of the big problems with allowing amateur hunters to take up some of the slack because they want to keep hunting so will try to keep populations sustainable and thus recreational hunting will not control a feral population but can maintain it. This is one of the reasons why there is some call for limited big game hunting of endangered species in places such as Africa, because hunters will want to maintain a population of a species to hunt, and governments might actually make an effort to protect such species. But this is not the case here in Australia where most endangered species that are endangered because of other issues such as habitat loss.

The argument that National Parks and State Forests are a breeding ground for pests does not really hold. Agricultural land surrounding National Parks are often much larger habitat for pest species and are the source of many pests. Such as wild dogs, for example, which roam across boundaries of farms, feeding on live stock. Management from shooting is still limited because a farmer can’t always be out hunting. I have heard mixed reports from graziers on the effectiveness of baiting. And a grazier of cattle might only be interested in controlling dogs, rabbits and perhaps roos, but not so much foxes or cats. A sheep farmer might want to control for foxes and maybe even cats (apparently Toxoplasmosis will cause miscarriages in sheep just like in humans) as well, but once again control will only be limited because a farmer is limited by money, man power, time and methodology.

Of course most hunters who will be hunting in National Parks would most likely abide by the laws. And it will be a small few that ruin it for the rest. A person being shot dead would be the worst case scenario but there would likely be a cost to native wildlife too. And there will be certain hunters that have no respect for the rules anyhow (like some people walking in the bush don't respect the laws either I suppose). In the past I have come across people hunting pigs with knives in national parks for example. I was hardly going to argue with two young men with big knives that they weren’t supposed to be there...

I see one of the parks mentioned is the Royal National Park, south of Sydney. In that park there has been a big problem with feral rusa deer for a long time. Eradication has proved difficult in the past but I don’t believe that amateurs are the answer. For example, this is the type of people who are already trying to hunt in NPs -> http://www.theleader.com.au/news/local/ ... 74544.aspx

Several years ago I remember a story about hunters killing a stag in suburban Helensburgh, south of the RNP, and cutting its head off in the street for a trophy. Is that the sort of hunting they are aiming for?

Anyhow, I personally think that allowing non-professional hunters to hunt for fun in National Parks is a very bad idea.

[melinda]

This is so, so wrong!
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/premiers-park ... 1ziik.html

[hikingoz]

I've got mixed feelings about this sort of thing. I would certainly feel uncomfortable walking in the same area as recreational hunters and be concerned about the quality control of amatuers in these wilderness areas.

On the other hand I have thought a couple of times that national parks are in fact a safe haven for ferals compared to state forrests and private property. Consider the Red Deer in the photo below, taken at Rams Head in Kosciusco National Park. They were pretty much free to roam across the park unhindered. On the same trip from Dead Horse Gap to Kiandra I saw much damage from pigs around the rolling grounds and a couple wild dogs on Long Plain. Perhaps it would be better if these animals were fair game in national parks.

DSCF2851.JPG (142.61 KiB) Viewed 41573 times

[michael_p]

Several years ago I remember a story about hunters killing a stag in suburban Helensburgh, south of the RNP, and cutting its head off in the street for a trophy.

Mentioned in this article: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-news/feral-deer-targeted/story-e6freuzi-1111112293883.

On a side note the Deer are well and truly out of the RNP. I know as I had one run across in front of me whilst riding my mtb along Peter Meadows Ck here in Campbelltown.

[forest]

I have given this a lot of thought over night.
I'm still not keen but will raise the following points.

From what I have seen the hunters I have crossed paths with in SF's have been driving around in a car looking for animals.
As I have said before I'm a hunter and from what I have observed in local SF's (Bushwalking, not hunting) you would be very fortunate to drive across a feral in a car. It does happen but not often (Works on private land as it's traditionally more open).
I know there are the keen hunters that will walk into a remote corner to hunt, those guys are normally more experienced and know what they are doing.

Hunting in a NP will raise further obstacles for most regular hunters that get used to easy driving then a short stroll along a forest road with a gun.

Take Kosci and the surrounding wilderness. There are not so many roads that are publically accessable. Hunting will need to be on foot, often many KM's from there nearest open road.
After initial hunting pressue animals may well push further into the park and that will require increased efforts from the hunter.

Hunters that are keen enough to do a multi day pack hunt will be the more experienced and dedicated of our bunch.
Anyone going to that much effort is fine in my eyes so long as they follow the rules. I cannot see this type of hunter blasting left right and center. Generally they are targeting a specific animal.

Goodluck hunting Barrington Tops.... most of the southern half is so thick it's not even accessable on foot.

On a side note the Deer are well and truly out of the RNP

Yep I have noticed this. My guess is that the Sydney hunter will think the RNP is a goldfield to start with..... until they realise it's very thick, steep and the deer can be very elusive.
I'm still worried that it's close vicinity to Sydney will mean an influx of would be hunters scrabbling all over it of a weekend.

Consider the Red Deer in the photo below, taken at Rams Head in Kosciusco National Park

I think they are Fallow deer not red's. There are Fallow, Reds and Sambar deer down there though.
Feral pig damage I have seen can be quite substancial down there and I think a good cull will benift things.
My guess would be that only remote area's of Kosci will be available to hunters. I couldn't see the frequented area's on the main range being an option.
This should limit pressue to only the keen and dedicated type.

I'm still not convinced this is right though.

[Tony]

I have also thought about this and the more I do the more I dislike the thought of recreational hunting in NP’s, for a start from what I understand, recreational hunting has very little impact on feral animal numbers it is an urban myth pushed by vested interests. I would like to read any scientific papers that prove it does.

Secondly even on my few walks in NZ I have heard gun shots and come across hunters with guns ready on main walking tracks, I found it very unnerving. It made me think how nice it was to walk in our NP’s.

It has been stated that hunting will not be allowed near main walking tracks or main tourist areas, well, not every bushwalker walks on main tracks or near main tourist areas, it will only be a matter of time before a bushwalker is shot at, injured or killed as it has been the case in NZ recently, then the shooters party will come out with the all the usual BS.

Tony

[wildwalks]

This policy is clearly just a method of purchasing votes from a minority party to allow the sale of the power stations. I think we need appreciate that this is probably not a very defendable position for the government.

I am not a hunter, but I can understand the value of the sport. But we already have space in state forests for people to hunt.

National Park land should primary be about conservation. And the impact of any activity (be it bushwalking, MTB, picnics, etc) should be careful studied before been allowed.
There are plenty of National Park land where the general public (including bushwalkers) are not allowed. A small price to pay to protect important eco systems.

The green wash on the vote is that it is about feral animal control. There is very little research on the effectiveness of a policy like this. But it would seem from what research has been done http://www.invasives.org.au/page.php?nameIdentifier=ishuntingconservation that hunting has very little impact on feral animal controls. If the government sees feral animal control as important, then they should ensure that funding is provided for it, and that it is done properly.

There are obvious safety and comfort issues with this policy that have already been raised.

And lets not forget the issue of integrity here, the Premier's made it very clear before the election that there would be no any hunting on NP estate under his government.

So the real problem (interms of changing the policy) is that this policy is worth $3b to the government (the expected income from the sale of power stations).

The NPA has some good ideas here http://www.npansw.org.au/ on writing and meeting with your local member. The Premier has backed down before when he broke a promise, he might do it again if he can see the outrage in the community. I am sure enough polite letters and meetings with local members will make a difference. I have drafted my letter.

Matt

[Tony]

Thanks Matt,

Some good information on the ISC site, confirms my information that recreational hunting does nothing to control feral animals.

It is also interesting to see that the NSWNPA is fighting this stupid law and that in the SMH poll 71% are against compared to 21% for but do I think the NSW government is going to listen ???

Tony

[Pteropus]

... from what I understand, recreational hunting has very little impact on feral animal numbers it is an urban myth pushed by vested interests...

... There is very little research on the effectiveness of a policy like this. But it would seem from what research has been done http://www.invasives.org.au/page.php?nameIdentifier=ishuntingconservation that hunting has very little impact on feral animal controls...

A bit of research has been done on the effectiveness of hunting to control large ungulates in North America and Europe. Often they are discussing animals native to those regions that no longer have predation pressure from their natural predators. The effectiveness of reducing a population through mortality will depend on life history traits of the species in question. Most pest species have high birth rates and can also reproduce early on in their life cycle. Hunting can actually increase generation times in some populations such as wild boar.

Humans tend to hunt differently to natural predators too, often killing the biggest and strongest animals such as the big males. For example, in kangaroo populations the big bucks are dominant animals that normally maintain some population control by excluding the younger males from breeding. However, when they are removed through hunting by humans, breeding becomes a bit of a free for all and all the young males can get in on the act, allowing numbers to increase. Hunting across all demographic classes, both adults and young, is often more effective. But would trophy hunters be interested in killing younger animals?

In Europe and North America there have long been problems with increasing populations of deer chewing through forests because of the lack of wild predators. Hunting or ‘harvesting’ by humans has not been particularly effective in controlling numbers, and there is now the famous, or infamous case of the reintroduction of wolves back into places such as Yellowstone National Park. That has been controversial because of the local ranchers who are worried about losing live stock to wolves, but the deer populations changed their behaviour in response to the wolves and were doing less damage to the parks.
Of course here in Australia we don’t really have the large predators, except for dingos, which are controversial too. And you can’t really introduce a biological control for many species...the natural predator of the rusa deer is the Sumatran tiger!

I think the only effective way of controling a pest species in National Parks by hunting would be to introduce a bounty. That way all animals in a population will be accounted for, not just the big bucks. But I doubt that the government are really all that interested in controling pest species.

Then of course there are other issues associated with game hunting, such as pig hunters who generally use dogs. Surely they will not be allowed into a park.
Like I said, this decision by the NSW government opens up a whole big can of worms and it will be interesting to see the details.

[phan_TOM]

Anyhow, I personally think that allowing non-professional hunters to hunt for fun in National Parks is a very bad idea.

I'm with you Andrew, I don't like it either and think hunters should be restricted to 'game parks' and state forests, they have more than enough area already.

This policy is clearly just a method of purchasing votes from a minority party to allow the sale of the power stations. I think we need appreciate that this is probably not a very defendable position for the government.

Yes, and its worked I heard on the radio on the way to work that the bill has been passed. It's a lose/lose for for the people of NSW...

I remember seeing a story last year where, after a huge effort, feral pigs had been thought to have been completely removed from one of the parks near Cairns or Townsville and all of a sudden they started reappearing again, and in numbers. It turned out shooters had been illegally breeding up and releasing pigs into the bush... I think it was on ABC's catalyst program, but its not an isolated incident, this one is similar -> http://www.abc.net.au/rural/qld/content ... 023950.htm

This is so, so wrong!
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/premiers-park ... 1ziik.html

If you think thas bad then how about this? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-05/y ... om/3993180 "New laws proposed in New South Wales are set to allow children as young as 12, armed with bows and arrows, dogs, and knives, to hunt feral animals without adult supervision"

[Pteropus]

...If you think thas bad then how about this? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-05/y ... om/3993180 "New laws proposed in New South Wales are set to allow children as young as 12, armed with bows and arrows, dogs, and knives, to hunt feral animals without adult supervision"

Ah good, I see this leading to some cases of natural population control of feral children

[phan_TOM]

and theres no shortage of them, Sheez just come for a drive around Mullumbimby sometime...


If it wasn't so disturbing it'd almost be comical, I like this quote from that story

...a 12-year-old will come home from school, put the schoolbag up on the hook at home, meet up with some friends, get five pig dogs and head off into the state forest to stab pigs together...

[Pteropus]

and theres no shortage of them, Sheez just come for a drive around Mullumbimby sometime...


If it wasn't so disturbing it'd almost be comical, I like this quote from that story

...a 12-year-old will come home from school, put the schoolbag up on the hook at home, meet up with some friends, get five pig dogs and head off into the state forest to stab pigs together...

Out in the country side, kids on farms do that anyhow. Hunting is one of their favourite pass times. Conversations out on properties in western Queensland would often revert to pig hunting. People are proud of their pig dogs too. Many will tell you that stabbing a pig will make it dead, where as a pig that is shot might just get angry and it could charge you. Walking all around the bush on private properties in western Queensland, hardly a day would go by without coming across pigs.

[FatCanyoner]

I've written up a short blog post with several simple actions that people can take to put pressure on the NSW Government to reverse this decision. It is the thin edge of the wedge, with similar deals likely in future if we don't fight it now.
You can read it all here: http://fatcanyoners.org/2012/05/31/hunting-in-national-park/
If you are someone who loves spending time in the bush, whether bushwalking, canyoning, paddling or any other outdoor pursuit, I'd really urge you to at least spend a few minutes to take action.
Passive recreation and guns don't mix, and I'd rather not wait for some poor *&%$#! to get shot before doing something about this plan!

[Tony]

Double post

[phan_TOM]

Out in the country side, kids on farms do that anyhow. Hunting is one of their favourite pass times

I understand it, I just don't agree with it. I grew up in the country and I've done my share of shooting over the years but choose to do other things for fun these days... I shoot birds with my canon instead (camera that is )

Many of my friends and neighbours have had problems with feral dogs in the past and I know of a couple of people who are professional shooters who get paid to control feral dogs. Amateur shooters in National Parks, Its just not a solution for a large scale problem. Farmers protecting their flock is one thing, allowing amateur gun-toting folks into National Parks for sport is another. Leave it to the professionals.

Just a week ago dogs got in and killed a newborn foal of someone I know, a heartbreaking event for everyone especially the kids who were expecting a baby horse to raise, the same family, a few years ago, had dogs who got in while they were out playing cricket and decimated their flock of sheep. They didn't eat them, just savaged them and when one was down moved on to the next, it was a horrible scene and they had to go around euthanising the injured survivors. Me and my mate tried baiting the dogs over a week or so and waited to shoot them. We got one, on one night and never saw those dogs again, they are just too canny.

I guess the discussion can come from many viewpoints. Shooting animals for food, fair enough; shooting to protect your livelihood, same; shooting for sport or fun, questionable...

[Pteropus]

I understand it, I just don't agree with it. I grew up in the country and I've done my share of shooting over the years but choose to do other things for fun these days... I shoot birds with my canon instead (camera that is )

I make that same joke, that I hunt with my Canon And yes, I understand the joy of stalking a wild animal. I think that most people, at least perhaps most men, have it in their genes. Millions of years of evolution can't be undone in a few generations. And there have been a few times where, if I had the appropriate tool, I could have done my bit for control of feral species...but I got some photos instead.

047 Tod.JPG (221.21 KiB) Viewed 41425 times

003 Feral cat.JPG (497.71 KiB) Viewed 41425 times

Just a week ago dogs got in and killed a newborn foal of someone I know, a heartbreaking event for everyone especially the kids who were expecting a baby horse to raise, the same family, a few years ago, had dogs who got in while they were out playing cricket and decimated their flock of sheep. They didn't eat them, just savaged them and when one was down moved on to the next, it was a horrible scene and they had to go around euthanising the injured survivors. Me and my mate tried baiting the dogs over a week or so and waited to shoot them. We got one, on one night and never saw those dogs again, they are just too canny.

I guess the discussion can come from many viewpoints. Shooting animals for food, fair enough; shooting to protect your livelihood, same; shooting for sport or fun, questionable...

I have heard from various people that trapping is more effective for controlling dogs. Also for pigs too. And yeah, I totally agree with your last line, that shooting for fun is questionable, and definitely doesn't belong in National Parks. But I feel that way about fishing too...which most here would probably disagree...

[hikingoz]

Consider the Red Deer in the photo below, taken at Rams Head in Kosciusco National Park

I think they are Fallow deer not red's. There are Fallow, Reds and Sambar deer down there though.
Feral pig damage I have seen can be quite substancial down there and I think a good cull will benift things.
My guess would be that only remote area's of Kosci will be available to hunters. I couldn't see the frequented area's on the main range being an option.
This should limit pressue to only the keen and dedicated type.

I'm still not convinced this is right though.

The deer in the photo weren't fallow deer. Apologies for the grainy photo but they had no spots. I viewed them quite closely. The males all had big sets of horns and were much darker brown in color. The females were more fawn in colour and slightly smaller. I'm not a deer expert and I guess it's not important to this topic anyway. Just wanted to clarify.

[Tony]

I have just finished a very interesting report on the Invasive Species Council site called 'Is recreational hunting effective for feral animal control?'

The article is certainly worth the read and confirmed my suspicion that recreational hunting is not effective for feral animal control,

Thanks to Matt (Wildwalks) for posting the link.

Tony

[phan_TOM]

Thanks Tony (and Matt), that helps to confirms the true nature of the push to expand hunting.

Heres some 'interesting' reading to give you an idea on the kind of people who are promoting this legislation http://candobetter.net/node/1424

and what they get up to for fun http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=85927&Main=85919