Bushwalk Australia

Posted: **Mon 26 May, 2014 4:32 pm**

An accident occurred while attempting a rope swing at Hanging Rock (Baltzer Lookout) in the Blue Mountains. Adrenalin junkies alright.

http://media.smh.com.au/news/nsw-news/t ... 57217.html

Posted: **Mon 26 May, 2014 9:44 pm**

You call that an adrenalin junkie? This is an adrenalin junkie!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nZUOLh1y6g

Posted: **Tue 27 May, 2014 11:14 am**

From the Blue Mountains LAC - NSW Police Force Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/BlueMountainsLAC)

Man injured using illegal rock swing – Blue Mountains

Issued at 12.20am, Monday 26 May 2014

A man was injured using an illegal rock swing in the Blue Mountains National Park yesterday.

About 1.45pm (Sunday 25 May 2014) people were allegedly using a giant swing system at Hanging Rock in Blackheath.

Inspector Peter Scheinflug, NSW Police Blue Mountains Duty Officer, said the extremely dangerous activity consists of rope being tied to a tree on Hanging Rock point and then people jump off a nearby cliff escarpment and free falling until stopped by the rope and pendulum swinging.

“Police have been told the 32-year-old took the jump and dropped about eight metres onto a ledge, fracturing both of his ankles and possibly his pelvis. He continued to swing and came to a stop about 50 metres from the top of Hanging Rock where others extricated him to the top of Hanging Rock as police rescue arrived,” he said.

“A short time later Ambulance Special Casualty Access Team attended. He was carried a short distance and winched out by Ambulance rescue helicopter and flown to Westmead Hospital for treatment

“It is shocking people take such risks and need to be warned about the obvious dangers. They are not only risking their own life, but the lives of those whose job it is to rescue them,” Insp Scheinflug said

A ranger from NSW National Parks and Wildlife attended and is investigating the alleged breach of their legislation (engage in activity risks safety of self /others).

It's interesting to consider the line at which the "engage in activity risks safety of self/others" is crossed. It's a pretty broad clause, open to much interpretation.

Obviously from a Police/NPWS perspective, bushwalking and canyoning fall on one side of that line, base jumping and rope swings on the other side (though base jumping is explicitly excluded by the plan of management, and bushwalking/canyoning are explicitly included).

I'd consider some of the things that I do when bushwalking or canyoning "risking safety of self/others", but I also consider them within the level of my skills/equipment. I'm sure there are people out there who think I'm crazy.

Many people have rope swung off Hanging Rock without serious incident, though there have certainly been near misses that don't make it on to the news (see Alex's link for example). I can't say I've ever done it, or base jumped, though I have abseiled off Hanging Rock. I wonder how these activities really stack up in terms of risk.

It's very hard to judge risk when you're not familiar with the activity. That's certainly my impression with non-canyoners and canyoning.

Posted: **Tue 27 May, 2014 11:26 am**

It's a case of you are damned if you warn and even more damned if you don't.

Posted: **Tue 27 May, 2014 12:20 pm**

I would safely call rock swinging an undue safety risk

Posted: **Tue 27 May, 2014 5:12 pm**

tom_brennan wrote:It's very hard to judge risk when you're not familiar with the activity.

This.

Posted: **Tue 27 May, 2014 5:18 pm**

DarrenM wrote:
tom_brennan wrote:It's very hard to judge risk when you're not familiar with the activity.

This.

The corollary is, unfamiliar activities are risky.

Posted: **Tue 27 May, 2014 5:25 pm**

tom_brennan wrote:It's very hard to judge risk when you're not familiar with the activity.

True - but illegal vs legal is at least a bit of a clue in terms of what's appropriate when rescue services could potentially be required.

Posted: **Tue 27 May, 2014 6:36 pm**

Tortoise wrote:True - but illegal vs legal is at least a bit of a clue in terms of what's appropriate when rescue services could potentially be required.

That's fine for say base jumping, which is banned in national parks (and also demonstrably dangerous if you look at the stats!). What about a rock swing? And there are all sorts of swings, from those like Hanging Rock, to say an 8m swing from a tree into a river. Where do you draw the line?

GPSGuided wrote:The corollary is, unfamiliar activities are risky.

I'm an experienced canyoner, so my view on canyoning is that it is not particularly risky. But clearly some people do stupid things canyoning and need rescuing. Other people just get unlucky in the outdoors, and also need rescuing.

I'm not familiar with rope swings, but maybe it's a relatively safe activity for someone who is experienced at setting those sorts of things up and executing them. I'm guessing that the guy who got injured probably had too much slack in his rope(s) and thus failed to clear the cliff. That's pretty stupid, but by itself doesn't make rope swings inherently dangerous, any more than someone taking their hand off the rope while abseiling and falling 5m makes canyoning dangerous.

I'm not saying that rope swings aren't dangerous, just that I don't think the general public has the expertise to make that judgement.

Unlike base jumping, where even experienced base jumpers regularly die:
http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wiki/BASE_Fatality_List

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 7:59 am**

tom_brennan wrote:Unlike base jumping, where even experienced base jumpers regularly die:
http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wiki/BASE_Fatality_List

That's frightening..

Regarding the rope swing, I have no problem with people doing it, I'm more worried about damaging the area..
As compared to several other extreme hobbies, there is generally only the jumper/swinger at risk.

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 8:43 am**

tom_brennan wrote:I'm not familiar with rope swings, but maybe it's a relatively safe activity for someone who is experienced at setting those sorts of things up and executing them. I'm guessing that the guy who got injured probably had too much slack in his rope(s) and thus failed to clear the cliff. That's pretty stupid, but by itself doesn't make rope swings inherently dangerous, any more than someone taking their hand off the rope while abseiling and falling 5m makes canyoning dangerous.

I'm not saying that rope swings aren't dangerous, just that I don't think the general public has the expertise to make that judgement.

Isn't it comparable to bungee jumping where life depends on the bungee/rope? Even when highly regulated, there are still the occasional serious accidents. I can understand PWS's position when it comes to these privately anchored swing ropes and activities. At the end of the day, emergency rescue are potentially putting rescuers at risk and is a fact. Fewer rescues the better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdJc1_IBKJA

A media report on the value and risks of medical helicopters.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/medical-he ... d=16155993

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 11:07 am**

So...the guy in that youtube clip you showed 'Lucky Chance' actually ran out of chances a while ago and hit the wall after a base jump. Lucky he didn't die but I'd say he probably won't be doing this anymore. And can I say that from what I have seen and heard, base jumping doesn't end well for many people and as a result I won't be doing it.

I will admit to doing swing's like this though and I can't see how it risks the safety of others any more than climbing or canyoning. They all have risks and require the person to make risk assessments and judgements which directly impact their own safety. So after many swings one person hits a ledge...and how many canyoneers and climbers over the years have either died or had injuries as a result of what they have done.

I was actually looking to do this swing in the not too distant future but if NPWS and NSW Police are going to view this to be stepping over that invisible line in a vague piece of legislation then I guess the game is over for me.

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 11:29 am**

It seems fairly simple - big swing with the ropes fixed to a significant overhang, nothing but air to hit - if all goes well. I can't see how the casualty could fall eight metres. Can someone please enlighten me, and advise which one of the several swingers was injured? How did the swingers get back to the start? Prussiks? Is the text of the SMH article available online? I can't access it.

I started climbing a lifetime ago, and there is no way then or now that I would do something so foolish as that depicted in the video. There is full reliance on the gear, and if that fails... This was drummed into me at an early age regarding abseiling

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 11:32 am**

I don't have a position on this issue and can certainly see comparison with some of the canyoning and climbing activities, yet there are differences in terms of speed and specific nature, entering into a grey zone. I can understand PWS's angle and can also see enthusiasts' angle. As is, someone is bound to make a call somewhere following a publicised accident. Best to keep these low key and incident free.

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 11:38 am**

Lophophaps wrote:Is the text of the SMH article available online? I can't access it.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/man-injured-a ... zrnvo.html

I couldn't see a ledge on Youtube videos and there's an earlier suggestion the injured didn't properly stretch out the swing rope before the jump, logically leading to a vertical drop before the swing. Makes sense.

These youtube clips showed a lot more of the anchoring system and the activities some jumpers get into.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dZzQGTOUr0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ0ifEwWpb0
Irresponsibly throwing empty drink cans, twist tops and steel ironing rack around the bush doesn't do the cause any good.

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 12:28 pm**

tom_brennan wrote:I'm not saying that rope swings aren't dangerous, just that I don't think the general public has the expertise to make that judgement.

Well I consider myself part of the "general public" and dont need any expertise to come to the conclusion that rope swings of this kind are dangerous, and the stats prove it. Just like I know that climbing Mt Everest is dangerous even though I've never done it.

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 6:51 pm**

The criteria that presumably apply are whether a major part of the attraction is the risk, the out of control nature and the consequences of a single point of failure that is difficult to quantify.

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 6:52 pm**

GBW wrote:
tom_brennan wrote:I'm not saying that rope swings aren't dangerous, just that I don't think the general public has the expertise to make that judgement.

Well I consider myself part of the "general public" and dont need any expertise to come to the conclusion that rope swings of this kind are dangerous, and the stats prove it. Just like I know that climbing Mt Everest is dangerous even though I've never done it.

What stats are there on rope swings? I'd be interested in seeing the base data for your claim.

Funnily enough, the SMH linked video shows a whole swag of folks (I think they've compiled a set of extracts from youtube vids by a variety of people) doing the swing happily and safely, all the while opining how dangerous it is.

I note that two people got lost bushwalking in the snowies yesterday…. and required a whole lot of resources to look for them. Should we ban walking!!?? The stats point to it having a high potential for danger.

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 6:57 pm**

Vern wrote:
I was actually looking to do this swing in the not too distant future but if NPWS and NSW Police are going to view this to be stepping over that invisible line in a vague piece of legislation then I guess the game is over for me.

climbing, asbquealing, canyoning etc could easily be argued to be banned in a whole raft of places in BMNP. Rangers and coppers will have better things to do than hang out at Hanging Rock pinning swingers (said the bishop to the actress).

If you want to do it just do it safely and if you don't, just don't.

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 9:14 pm**

as bad as it is, at least the guy's buddies got him back up instead of leaving it to the officers. Despite the risk of the activity, at least they were somewhat responsible in responding to the incident. For all the negative talk, that group didn't really put anyone else in danger. I think that should be put forward as a positive, and encouraged in regards to responsible behavior, rather than risking a group abandoning am injured member to avoid prosecution.

Posted: **Wed 28 May, 2014 10:16 pm**

Another way to look at it is on the visuals aspect. Given hanging rock is a feature and a sight from the nearby Baltzer Lookout, is it reasonable for jumpers to occupy the feature to any possible other visitors who might care to see it as nature intended? But granted, suspect more would have a jaw dropper experience.

Posted: **Thu 29 May, 2014 10:28 am**

GPSGuided wrote:Another way to look at it is on the visuals aspect. Given hanging rock is a feature and a sight from the nearby Baltzer Lookout, is it reasonable for jumpers to occupy the feature to any possible other visitors who might care to see it as nature intended? But granted, suspect more would have a jaw dropper experience.

I have watched people wait for a passing train to get off the Sydney Harbour Bridge prior to taking a photo from many places harbourside. Yet to me a train on the deck is of more interest, though the structure is still of strong interest when they are not there.
+
'as nature intended' - I don't think you would scrub bash your way out to Baltzer lookout barefoot. (Once per season. After walking to Blackheath from your clan on the Nepean River.)
+
both of your statements would have applied to the climbing of the Three Sisters. And to adventure racers encountered en-masse by day trippers ambling along walking tracks in the Blue Mts. There have been two such foot events held very recently in the Jamison Valley area. The visual aspect of a single gnarled Banksia serrrata would have been upset continually by speedy coloured lycra.

The guys appear to have rescued their injured friend - couldn't police commend this? Moreso in the light of the two men who were 'rescued' from BBB?

Posted: **Thu 29 May, 2014 10:41 am**

Wollemi wrote:The guys appear to have rescued their injured friend...

"Appear" is the word isn't it? Did they fully rescue their friend? I doubt they have much expertise in the management of bilateral ankle and pelvic fractures. The "rescue" of the young man from a life as a mobility (and potentially sex life) cripple and associated medical/rehab expenses have barely started. Commending the guy's friends? Are you kidding? They were an integral part of the accident. They were not passer-bys who volunteered themselves in harms way.

Posted: **Thu 29 May, 2014 12:38 pm**

Lets all accept that police join knowing risks are involved and that police rescue don't do rescue to sit behind a desk. If they want that then there are plenty of other desk jobs available. Saying that I don't think people are going out of their way to use police rescue. This along with climbing, abseiling, canyoning, hiking, etc should all be done within the persons limits of knowledge and training etc. If that is done their should be very few rescues required.

Regarding single point failure, this along with all other rope sports involve the risk of single point failure. And yes, risk also equates to fun for some but obviously it's not for everyone. So accidents will happen, as they do when driving a car. Maybe I'm just hoping that they won't make the call to include this with illegal activities such as base jumping which has some real stats to worry about. My stats would look sometihing like this for swings...50 with nil injuries as would my associates. Thinking about it I probably have more injuries from climbing.

Posted: **Thu 29 May, 2014 1:16 pm**

Vern wrote:50 with nil injuries as would my associates.

N=1 data point means little.

What I would agree with is, users of our NPs are entitled to a certain degree of freedom and risk per their own desires. What I don't agree with is trying to claim entitlement and absolve responsibilities when things go wrong.

This is a nasty accident and the guy was lucky to have escaped from more serious injuries. That's the only thing one can be thankful about. Trying to earn commendation will only leave a poor impression of the group.

Posted: **Thu 29 May, 2014 1:30 pm**

N=1 is about all the data I've ever seen on swinging

I agree that if it is known that the activity is illegal and or it is done in ignorance of obvious legislation then they need to be held accountable but this one is a bit of a grey area. But if it's illegal I won't be doing it!

8m on to a rock ledge, not sure how he did that, but yes very lucky to have only those injuries.

Posted: **Thu 29 May, 2014 2:19 pm**

I went through a number of Youtube videos and could not see where there's a ledge from the common take-off point that could explain the bilateral ankle fractures. As for many of these reports, the information may not be entirely accurate. Maybe the guy sustained the injury from a jump at another point in the vicinity. Reading the report again and I note it stated "jumped off Hanging Rock point". "Hanging rock point" is where the rope is anchored, not where the swingers take off.

Quite a few different setups for these swings. Variously using 1, 2 or 3 lines. This one looked quite fancy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIuKCwtmOBM

Posted: **Thu 29 May, 2014 3:25 pm**

There's a few sloping 'ledges' a bit below the lip, in one or two spots. In climbing terms they would be more 'slabs'. I guess you could clip one if you dropped too much before your swing began.

Posted: **Thu 29 May, 2014 3:44 pm**

*&%$#! magnificent video GPS. Looks very professionally / safely rigged and I'd be more then happy to go for a swing on it.

Guessing maybe he hit the wall on the back swing.
Hit a ledge while free falling before swinging on the rope.
Fell while near the edge but I'd assume a safety line would be used and not 8m long..
Fell while moving between the swing anchor point and jump off point.
Fell while abseiling down to the ground??

Either way I think it's fair to say he's lucky to be alive. Generally these sorts of things are 100% safe, or you die.
Travis.

Posted: **Thu 29 May, 2014 4:58 pm**

GPSGuided wrote:As for many of these reports, the information may not be entirely accurate.

I think you can take that as a given for most newspaper reports! I've never found one that was correct when I knew all the facts.

Bushwalk Australia

Accident at the Hanging Rock - Blue Mtns

Accident at the Hanging Rock - Blue Mtns

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