Are you a rock climber?

[sandym]

Mount Warning, the Grampians are two high profile examples that come to mind.

The rock closure effect routes of all grades, although I'm not sure what the relevance of that is.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Sealers' Cove ( The Prom ) walking path from Telegraph saddle has been closed for years.
Parts of the Grampians are closed to walkers and climbers.
Funding cuts are coming to the already strapped for cash Parks Victoria body.
It will not be possible to manage what is already there if the funding decreases any further to Parks Victoria.
It will be simpler to close it down and lock people out.

[Aardvark]

Long before any of this was the closure of Mt.Coonoowrin (Crookneck), Glasshouse Mountains, in 1998.

[CraigVIC]

Sealers' Cove ( The Prom ) walking path from Telegraph saddle has been closed for years.

It's foolish for any walker to believe this is happening somewhere else, to somebody else. The Prom is in the same process as the Grampians, just futher behind with native title, joint management and corporations all in the picture. Does anyone believe that there is anywhere in Victoria where there weren't aboriginal people prior to colonization? This is going to be an ongoing issue for years to come and what is happening at Arapilies is one path , a test case, that others can follow. There might also be other solutions is the point.

[sandym]

This article implies Parks Victoria has zero control of the outcome of any cultural heritage claims. From the Herald Sun:

The head of Parks Victoria has defended the move to close certain areas of Mt Arapiles claiming the
agency’s hands were tied because they do not have any say on cultural heritage.
Matthew Jackson, CEO of Parks Victoria appeared before the Inquiry into the 2023-24 financial and
performance outcomes, revealing the decision to close parts of the world-renowned park was not up
for public consultation due to the state’s cultural heritage laws.
“We don’t consult on cultural heritage,” he told the panel in a fiery exchange.
“What we do is work with the First people’s State Relations who are the regulator … once the asset
or the heritage has been notified, it’s registered and then we work through the process to make sure

“We are not here to model the economics, we are a land manager for the Cultural Heritage Act,” he
said.

Department of Energy, Environment and Climate Action secretary John Bradley, also appeared
before the panel outlining that the Cultural Heritage Act was passed by the Victorian parliament,
under the leadership of former premier Daniel Andrews, and that any decision to register sites of
cultural significance sat with the team within the Department of Premier and Cabinet.

I wonder how much public consultation there was on the Cultural Heritage Act.

[Lophophaps]

Cutural heritage is good, but not in isolation. While Aboriginals were at Araps for a long time, around 60 years of climbing surely has some heritage relevance. A lawyer may be useful for challenging the application of the Cultural Heritage Act.

[Baeng72]

I had a quick look for 'First People's State Relations' , found this page: https://www.heritage.vic.gov.au/about-u ... e-agencies
Clicking on the like for 'First People's...' and it goes to wayback machine on the internet archive? How? Why? My brain is melting...OK Victoria is rogered.
Anyway, the heritage act appears to be for non-Aboriginal items of heritage. But I'm sure I'm wrong, not an expert of law or regulations, maybe it's not the same as the heritage act of 2017 or Herald Sun just throwing out crap ?
I'd be careful believing anything the Herald Sun says in relation to Dan Andrews. Telling porkies is par for the course with those guys.
https://www.heritage.vic.gov.au/about-u ... egulations


[EDIT] SNIP removed because I can't be bothered and it's off topic.

[peregrinator]

[ . . . ] I'd be careful believing anything the Herald Sun says in relation to Dan Andrews. Telling porkies is par for the course with those guys.

I'd be wary of anything the Herald Sun says in relation to anything.

[sandym]

Apologies to all the Victorian folks, but the one person I wouldn't trust is Dan Andrews

https://www.news.com.au/technology/envi ... 207fdd4df5

[bernieq]

Cutural heritage is good, but not in isolation. While Aboriginals were at Araps for a long time, around 60 years of climbing surely has some heritage relevance. A lawyer may be useful for challenging the application of the Cultural Heritage Act.

Really? 40,000+ years vs 60?

[Lophophaps]

Really? 40,000+ years vs 60?

Orders for keeping Victorian buildings from the 1960s have been made. I said "around 60 years of climbing surely has some heritage relevance." All aspects and their impact warrant consideration.

[Baeng72]

I am posting with a bit of trepidation, because I'm ignorant of the laws, and because people get quite antsy when someone says something they think is wrong. This is basically what I edited away yesterday, but I can't help put my fingers near the flames....

So, with the necessary caveats that I'm probably wrong, or somewhat wrong, etc,

1) it appears that the Heritage act isn't involved in this, but that the Hun with their Murdoch approved hate boner for "Dictator Dan", included a paragraph with that act mentioned to have a drive by at Andrews.

So, SandyM, don't use the Herald Sun as proof or evidence of anything. It's not a news service. It's part of the outrage economy designed to distract from real problems we face. If you think the story is true, find relevant original sources, don't ever quote anything from News.com. Like a broken clock, they'll be correct now and then, but it's just accidental to their mission to mislead and divide.

But Andrews is no innocent, but his "crimes" are overriding public service, centralizing power, doing deals without proper assessment (Com Games which seemed just an expensive ploy to buy regional city votes, Suburban loop rail, etc all of which pale when compared the Fed. Gov. Aukus white Elephant) stacking branches, and so on. None which IBAC could do a thing about (see Operation Watts report) because the law prohibits IBAC recommending fault or charges against politicians.

2) Aboriginal heritage is not something to be discarded, but we don't know how what the local first nations want, and how that rubs up against laws and regulations that are necessarily 1 size fits all, and leads to outcomes that satisfy no one. Which is to say, we might all be arguing points that have little bearing on reality because we are starting from false premises.

Or maybe that's just me, but, to say this is "set in stone", or that's "a violation of x,y,z" seems a bit premature and exactly what politicians want, as a population arguing things that aren't and ignoring things that are, allows them and their donor mates to make bank, increase inequality and so on.

TLDR; contact relevant bodies and complain.

If you have any poo, now is the time to fling it (at me!)

[paidal_chalne_vala]

IMHO there no votes to be lost for annoying some greenies, rock climbers, bushwalkers and XC skiers.
They are all not worth worrying about if you are
in the Lib Labs come election day.
That is why we must make a fuss and make these Blue tie/ Red tie seat warmers wake up and take notice.

[Lophophaps]

Baeng72, the rules prohibit poo throwing so you should be okay.

Actions should be based on facts, experience, rules, laws, codes or a combination. I was a bit sceptical about the Hun article, so I’m attempting to find the Act and section that led to the heritage aspect. In a trial, hearing or mediation the first step is to get the facts, often who did what when and why. At this stage in the Araps ban matter, this has not been done. All we have is result without the facts, what and why.

I also do not know why it’s so rushed. About six years ago the Falls Hotham Alpine Crossing Draft Management Plan (FHAC DMP) was released for comment. The reply time was too short, and after adverse comment the deadline was quickly extended. Just because an agency or politician says that something is so does not mean that it has to stay that way.

Consultation takes time and costs more, but it invariably leads to a better result. There was minimal consultation for the FHAC DMP, and the contractor got a lot of things wrong. Quick advice from bushwalkers led to someaspects quickly changed by Parks Victoria. One of my current Araps goals is to have more time. If this is not granted then it may be a matter for the Ombudsman or Inspectorate.
https://www.vicinspectorate.vic.gov.au
If everyone asked for more time then the chance of this happening increase.

Premiers Andrew and Allen have created major economic unhappiness with very big projects that cost a lot, far more than the state can afford. Partly due to that a credit rating warning has been issued.
Victorian budget 2024: Ratings warning over Allan Labor government’s $188 billion debt

[sandym]

Baeng72 I can point you to a few web resources, hopefully, this will be more acceptable than the Herald Sun. However, while I am not a fan of legacy media and fully understand the "outrage media" I also believe in some semblance of free speech, so, I'll quote what I like. Describing some legacy media as "The Hun with their Murdoch approved hate boner" is to slip, quickly and deeply, into the "outrage media" that you just decried. It's emotive language and shows a clear bias. We are all biased, the only problem I have with that is pretense, by anyone, that they aren't biased.

The creeping but now widespread bans appear to have been enacted under Native Title Settlement. This is well explained here. https://www.bglc.com.au/traditional-own ... ent-negoti

Apparently signed into law in 2022, while the Victorian government had its citizens locked up under one of the most draconian policies of any country in the world. Make of that what you will. I am using strong language, and I'm biased. I think the lockdowns were *&^%$#!.

I still believe this is being enacted under Cultural Heritage laws, see here: https://www.firstpeoplesrelations.vic.g ... agreements and this has now been quoted by so many other news agencies that there is either a full blown conspiracy theory or some truth to this.

The BGLC has apparently refused to meet with any folk who are not members of BGLC and may be operating somewhat unilaterally. See this article: https://savegrampiansclimbing.org/2024/ ... -victoria/

The BGLC has previously been quoted as saying that the protection is for "intangible things" like stories. I will admit to being a cynic, but this sounds a bit like "it's whatever we say it is."

I have sent off letters to everyone listed on this page, see below. If these closures concern you, rather than arguing semantics or details, do what I did and write a personal letter.

https://savegrampiansclimbing.org/save- ... your-help/

[climberman]

The rock closures are affecting beginner and intermediate routes AFAIK.

No
From Tiptoe to Punks, the impacts are very widespread.
The joy of araps is the variety of amazing routes at a huge range of grades.

These areas:

Preliminary list of closed areas:

- Bushrangers Bluff Back Wall (Guide only)

- Colosseum Wall Area: all

- King Rat Area: White Mice Walls, Light Fingered Gully, Bum Rocks

- Pilot Error Area all walls- Pilot Error Cliffs, Cobwebs Gully, Louise Lane Wall)

- Atridae: House of Atreus, Agamemnon Area

- Organ Pipes Gully: Organ Pipes Gully Left Side, Organ Pipes Gully Right Side

- Upper Central Gully: The Torture Chamber, Skyline Walls

- Central Gully Right: Minstrel Pinnacle

-Major Mitchell Gully: Ali's Area

- Bluffs: Denim Wall,Blockbuster Ledge, Dead Eye Dick Wall

- Tiger Walls: all walls

- Castle Crag: all

- Voodoo Area: New Image Wall

- The Pharos: Front Wall and West Face, Uncle Charlie, South Face, Back Wall

- Pharos Gully: Ethereal Buttress, Cheops ButtresS, Yesterday Gully (Upper and Lower)

- Pinnacle Face: all

- Northern Group: High Dive Gully, Mermaid Avenue

- Far North: Intrepid Gully, Leasehold Wall, Echidna Wall, Werewolf Are

-Mitre Rock: all

[Joris]

Baeng72 I can point you to a few web resources, hopefully, this will be more acceptable than the Herald Sun. However, while I am not a fan of legacy media and fully understand the "outrage media" I also believe in some semblance of free speech, so, I'll quote what I like. Describing some legacy media as "The Hun with their Murdoch approved hate boner" is to slip, quickly and deeply, into the "outrage media" that you just decried. It's emotive language and shows a clear bias. We are all biased, the only problem I have with that is pretense, by anyone, that they aren't biased.

Easy on the victimhood - no one here is keeping you from posting Murdoch links at all. Their very specific biases are exceedingly well-known, including in relation to the state and management of the outdoor environments we all love, and quoting such a source may as such be called out. That is not impeding on any your rights of expression, nor is there any pretense involved in relation to bias. You choose to quote such a source, expect to be called out on it. No big deal.

[Lophophaps]

From Tiptoe to Punks, the impacts are very widespread.
The joy of araps is the variety of amazing routes at a huge range of grades.

My first climbs there were around 1973, and the last time was about 20 years ago. The list made me feel unwell. It's akin to saying that most of the Blue Mountains, most of the Budawangs, Jagungal, half the KNP Main Range, Bogong, half the Bogong High Plains, Feathertop, Howitt, the Overland Track, the Walls, and the South Coast Track are no longer available for cultural reasons. I'm very lucky. Bard on a warm day. Central Gully right side in summer shade. Organ Pipes. Castle Crag. Big air on Tiger Wall and Bluff Major. Being able to pick a climb and if there are people on it then the one a few metres way is fine. This will be no more if the proposal gets through.

[CraigVIC]

Parks CEO steps down and government review begins
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-29/ ... /104661334

[paidal_chalne_vala]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcq4cFVCiuk

[Lophophaps]

I suspect that the opposition from a lot of places has been such that the government is having second thoughts. In Canberra an MP said that several Horsham doctors were there for the climbing, and if they left the hospital would be very understaffed.

This is the end of my submission:
27 Summary
27.1 The Plan is ill-conceived with a limited and no verified basis in fact.

27.2 Aboriginal sites and endangered species cannot be considered in isolation, and while looking after these aspects has merit, economic impacts warrant serious consideration.

27.3 Destroying a small country town and making the state of Victoria a laughing stock is a very heavy price to pay.

27.4 The short time for responses is very concerning. Parks Victoria spent four years investigating the matter and expects responses in a month.

27.5 The secrecy surrounding the “Comprehensive archaeological and ecological surveys” is appalling. Further and better particulars are needed, but Parks Victoria will not provide them. This is a denial of natural justice and due process, arguably a matter for the Ombudsman, Inspectorate, or Auditor-General.

27.6 The lack of accountability is very concerning.

27.7 Parks Victoria is discriminating against people with poor vision, and this too needs to be resolved.

27.8 The Korda Mentha enquiry should include Arapiles.

27.9 The entire process needs to be put on hold pending resolving the very significant irregularities in this matter.

[sandym]

Thanks for writing Lophophaps. The issue is getting some traction. The political motivation is hard to fathom but it may have been that the Wimmera is a very lightly populated area and might be considered disposable in terms of votes and voters.

The comment period has been extended. Interested folks can find more details on Failbook where there is a Save the Grampians group and also more than one Victorian climbers group - although these closures effect much more than Victorians.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

In theory if the powers that be can ban climbing at Mt. Arapiles then they can ban surfing in the Mornington Peninsula N.P. , Back country Ski touring in the Alpine N.P. and bushwalking in the Baw Baw N.P...
It is a slippery slope on the thin edge of the wedge linked to a third cliche which I cannot think of right now.

[Lophophaps]

PCV, banana skin cliche? Maybe someone could start a rumour on FB that due to lack of funding the government is closing all parks. Fines for breaches are expected to cover funding for a few months.

Is there a non-FB link advising that the submission date has been extended?

I've been in touch with a number of people. One person said that as Melbourne residents are around 60-70% of the population, they will decide the issue. Also, it will come down to marginal seats held by the ALP. Arapiles may be the tipping point.

The massive government debt in dollars and per capita is a bit hard for many to grasp. By contrast, killing a mountain and a very successful small country town is easily grasped. Horsham Hospital has a number of doctors there for the climbing. Take away Araps and they will go. Other locals are thinking of moving away. With one horrible policy the state government is destroying the region – and the policy is not even certain.

Maybe 40 years ago there was a wide chasm between city and country, especially farmers. Now conservationists volunteer to plant seedlings on farms, schemes like Project Hindmarsh. There is growing awareness in the city that the bush is doing it tough.

“We need to be able to make a compelling case that this is false binary option of climbers as cultural vandals versus PV's obligation to protect is NOT what this is all about.

“Rather, it is about the need to look at a range of management options that can maximise access without creating serious risk to the environmental and cultural values that deserve protection. This in turn, requires land managers to consider the myriad of cases in Victoria, around Australia and around the planet, where such values have robust protection, without requiring large exclusion zones.”

This is now my focus for a supplementary submission. Does anyone know of places where a good balance between protecting the environment, allowing recreation, and protecting cultural values can be found?

It was also said that as PV lacks funding the simplest solution is to lock up parks. Lack of resources means that major parks cannot be kept open. The AAWT is not in good shape at all. Parts of the Prom are closed. There are probably many more. We should be asking the government why PV is under resourced.

The answer is simple – too much was spent on the Big Builds. The government will not say this.

For now, keep on sending emails to the premier, minister and PV. Swamp them with objections. Ask why they are destroying the Horsham region and Natimuk. Get the petition to 10,000.

[peregrinator]

. . . We should be asking the government why PV is under resourced.

The answer is simple – too much was spent on the Big Builds . . .

Parks Vic has been been appallingly under resourced for decades. Doesn't matter which of the almost identical pro-capitalist political parties are in office.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Yes, Parks Vic. simply have no money and it has been that way for over ten- fifteen years
under the red tie and the blue tie governments in Vic.. The Govt. of the day
allocates how much money Parks Victoria gets.
The Dept. of frequent name changes gets more money than Parks Vic. does.

I suspect that The Labourals in Vic. are realizing that they
have got this very wrong and they have also back flipped on charging people to see the penguins at St. Kilda too.

It is obvious that the Vic. ALP Govt. are OBSESSED with "the Big Build". Everything else can be thrown in the bin!!

[CraigVIC]

Clearly it's not just about a lack of money. For example, the Prom boardwalk repair is fully funded by special grant and has been for ages; yet no ground has been broken and the project is locked in the interminable 'regulatory approvals' stage. I think that this black box is due for some review so we can all better understand what it means and how much of it is necessary and good, and how much of it is busy-work sapping time and money out of Parks.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Parks Vic. staff at Mt. Beauty tell me that the endless red tape and byzantine levels of bureaucracy that have encased even the act of
going for cr*p at the office
now make it simpler and less vexing to just turn
up at work and not do much more than the necessary minimum work in the field.

[Lophophaps]

https://engage.vic.gov.au/dyurrite

"Consultation on the Dyurrite Cultural Landscape (Mt Arapiles - Tooan State Park) Management Plan Amendment will be extended to 14 February 2025, giving the community more opportunities to make submissions."

Good. My somewhat rushed submission can be revised a bit. Eight years ago the very tight Falls Hotham Alpine Crossing submission deadline was extended. Like FHAC the Araps plan has been ripped apart. FHAC will be running at a loss, just like the $1.7 million in Araps "upgrades". I have sense of deja vu.

The petition
https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/get-i ... -arapiles/
has 9269 signatures. It would be really nice to get to 10,000.