Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

[Xplora]

It is very common to go down hill after going up hill when touring. Ski terminology is a bit weird anyway. PCV has invented a couple more.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

My Madhsus Epoch skis have the words " Cross country downhill skis" printed on them.

[Xplora]

My Madhsus Epoch skis have the words " Cross country downhill skis" printed on them.

Marketing words. A great touring ski but lacks plenty for any serious downhill. Its all a bit AC/DC.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

I bet you I could Telemark down Drover's Dream on the Epoch skis once I get the Telemark bindings fitted to them. So the words printed on them will be applicable to my purposes.

[Xplora]

I bet you I could Telemark down Drover's Dream on the Epoch skis once I get the Telemark bindings fitted to them. So the words printed on them will be applicable to my purposes.

And I have heard tales of Mark Oates telemarking at Falls Creek resort on skating skis so I guess they are down hill skis also. Anyway, semantics over. Hope you have fun regardless.

[Drew]

New community consultation is open until September 25. Not that I have high hopes that they'll pay the slightest attention to criticism...

https://engage.vic.gov.au/falls-to-hotham

[Xplora]

New community consultation is open until September 25. Not that I have high hopes that they'll pay the slightest attention to criticism...

https://engage.vic.gov.au/falls-to-hotham

Totally agree but voicing an opinion is still good. I noticed the reference in the survey to using the huts as a ski base. That will be what the Cope and Tawonga accommodation will mostly be used for. There is no logical reason for any facility at Tawonga huts to support this walk. It has been positioned entirely for Falls Creek to use in winter. If people doing this walk cannot get to Tawonga huts from Cope before lunch there is no way they will be able to walk up Diamantina spur. Cope hut to the Kiewa river is an easy day so I would suggest cutting out Tawonga altogether but that won't happen because of Falls Creek interference. This will be an environmental disaster if the numbers touted come to fruition. There is not enough accommodation at these sites to cope with such demand and certainly not enough toilets. I can't believe Bushwalking Victoria is supporting it.

I noticed none of the huts had any provision for heating. That will be interesting. Will they all have heaters installed? Gas? Electric from the huge solar system going in? or will it be wood fired which will mean more problems? Perhaps they will have to be constructed so heating will not be required. The interactive map is joke. Pretty much the same thing for each location. I would also suggest there is no need to have as many huts on the Razorback as less than 5% of the target market will get there. But that won't happen either because it would upset Hotham management.

Just one big sell out and the big surprise sell out is BV.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

I filled in the survey and told them I do not approve of any of it. Just get rid of the feral animals, weeds and build a new hut at Pretty Valley because the old one is falling down.

[CraigVIC]

Just one big sell out and the big surprise sell out is BV.

I fear BV will be just one of many disappointments. Surely they are here, on this forum, and could engage with walkers, explain their thoughts, but obviously they have no appetite for it. It's all well and good to tell people walking along Merri creek they're bushwalkers too but you would think advocating for the type of walking done by affiliate clubs would be of the same or more importance. BV seem to have swallowed the equity of access hook line and sinker. Perhaps it is in the nature of such peak bodies with generally apathetic members to seek to maintain their insider status with Parks even where it is at odds with their members interests.

The VNPA are making some noise about the Crossing but all these issues were apparent in the GPT, there's nothing new here, and they had nothing to say. Perhaps they were blinded by their glee in seeing climbers banned and the Alpine NP will seem a little more real to them. We can hope.

But the biggest let down will be walkers. All this ground was covered at the grampians and there were only two issues that were really complained about. One, the cost of campsites. Two, the fixed itinerary bookings. No one (outside of this forum) was concerned about unnecessary track improvements. No one was concerned about closing old routes. No one was concerned about private huts in the park estate. No one was concerned about the novelty chairs at every camp. No one was concerned about the over built camps. No one was even concerned the promised loop walks were not built. No one was concerned about the end to dispersed camping that came along with this highly structured, very expensive, linear walk.

In fact you could see the movement in language where parks sought to redefine platforms not as unfortunate hardening required to preserve the environment but as a facility that would improve your hike and justify the higher fees vis a vis the Prom. Many times I have seen this picked up and repeated by walkers on Facebook. There is a significant group of walkers who see these kitsch theatrettes of hiking signifiers as exciting destinations.

Abandon all hope is my advice.

When I was young and read the Green Left there was a lot of debate about how it was necessary to argue on economic lines. That it was pointless to talk about some frog that was going extinct, or how old a forest was, or how beautiful an area was. What was needed was economic facts about how much more money was brought into an area by tourism rather than logging or mining. How bnb's made more money than than logging trucks. It made a lot of sense to me at the time but now I see it as having failed. It's an argument that hasn't really saved anything but has lead directly to a new sphere of rentseeking extractive industries. And they have won in Victoria, with tourist driven development all over be it in the high country or the proposed gigantic suspension bridges in the Otways.

[Baeng72]

Just one big sell out and the big surprise sell out is BV.

Abandon all hope is my advice.

When I was young and read the Green Left there was a lot of debate about how it was necessary to argue on economic lines. That it was pointless to talk about some frog that was going extinct, or how old a forest was, or how beautiful an area was. What was needed was economic facts about how much more money was brought into an area by tourism rather than logging or mining. How bnb's made more money than than logging trucks. It made a lot of sense to me at the time but now I see it as having failed. It's an argument that hasn't really saved anything but has lead directly to a new sphere of rentseeking extractive industries. And they have won in Victoria, with tourist driven development all over be it in the high country or the proposed gigantic suspension bridges in the Otways.

The end game is total commodification of nature. If nature has monetary value, you trade it and sell it, and destroy it because something else you did was said to be equal value.
You can see it with the Fed. Governments 'Green Wallstreet'. They're taking the offsetting paradigm used and abused to reduce emissions.
Likewise, you'll be able to clearfell forest, pay for an offset, and you're certified to have looked after nature.
Abandon all hope indeed.

[Xplora]

I am absolutely certain any words expressed to the contrary in the survey or submission will be discarded and you will only hear about the positive words. The original flawed premise for this walk remains and flies in the face of the significant objections raised in earlier consultation. When I was at the Bright face to face I sat next to a man who was running tours on the current walk and his words were 'I will not be taking my clients up Diamantina spur'. He had a vested interest in establishing the walk and the accommodation. I would bet the ranch on the entire project falling away if Hotham and Falls creek were told the huts cannot be used as separate winter accommodation that did not involve the walk.

It would only be worse if we had a change of government so there is no hope there. No hope of a change anyway. Resorts managements have huge pull in State government. Falls Creek takes control of a road beyond its boundaries and closes it when there is no snow over it. Local Parks Vic have complained but nothing happens because the resorts have connections. This is what angers me about the project. The resorts have had no interest in supporting the walk until accommodation in the park was offered and now the resorts are the driving force. As walks go this one is not particularly special so it will take a considerable amount of marketing to make this sows ear into a silk purse. In this day and age that may be possible with the help of the hash tag.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Fortunately places such as Mt. Clear, The Grey Hills and Long Spur will remain as they are for the foreseeable future because they are more remote and take a bit more effort to reach. They are also a fair way from the major ski resorts. Yes I use the ski resort at Falls Creek in ski season but the RMB there are hungry to build a bigger car park and remove a large amount of XC ski amenity and Back country ski touring access.
They also want to turn the BHP into a " lego land club med theme park" for people who have probably never
left the ski resort or walked to the shops in
their home suburb in their lives.
BV and PV have sold us out to big Business and the commodification of nature.
The VNPA have their own trail mix munching gate keeper agenda.
We are doomed!!

[Lophophaps]

Sadly, the above posts are correct. The so-called consultation process was a sham. There were submissions about the Draft Management Plan: 90 per cent of the public submissions opposed FHAC, and a further 5 per cent were neutral. The DMP said that there were 17,000 walker nights on FHAC. The May 2022 report says 10,000 walkers. Both are wrong. Only handful of people go up or down Diamantina Spur, and probably none walk between the resorts. There are a small number of FHAC parties going via Dibbins Hut.

If the true number of parties is applied to the FHAC the economic return is most probably in the 5-20 cents per dollar range. That is, spend a dollar and get 5-20 cents.

There's a maxim that if a law is bad it should be enforced. One of the best was that cyclists must indicate when turning and at the same time raise the other hand to show that they are stopping. If this is done the rider crashes. The law was changed. If the wretched track and even less desirable huts and platforms are built, let them fail. Participants can be dissed on social media and in log books. It will not be their fault, but they can be advised.

However, we should still be doing what we can to oppose the matter – submissions, contacting MPs, media, etc. I've done all these, no effect so far, but if we all do it then it will have impact. Decades ago there was a plan for a resort on Mount Stirling. Most submissions were against this, but there was no change of government policy. It took 76 letters – not pro formas – to get the resort scuttled.

I refuse to give up on this matter.

[CraigVIC]

From Bushwalking Vic:-

"The Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing (FHAC) is a Parks Victoria (PV) project to develop a 57km, five-day four-night walk between Falls Creek and Mt Hotham. The walk will be along existing tracks, with some to be upgraded to repair long term damage e.g., on the lower slopes of Mt Cope and around snow pole 333.

The project also includes four new ‘accommodation nodes’ providing camping platforms, up to nine small and basic accommodation huts, a communal shelter, toilet and water tank.

Planning for the walk is well underway and Parks Victoria is currently seeking community feedback by Sunday 25 September on the recently released draft concept designs for the accommodation nodes.

Bushwalking Victoria BWV is mostly supportive of the FHAC as it will bring additional visitors to this stunning alpine area and have been encouraged by the willingness of PV to publicly release in full details of their planning, such as the business case, landscape and visual impact assessment and environmental values assessment.

However, we are very concerned with the planned siting of an accommodation node at the top of Diamantina Spur, and the impact that this could have on independent walkers visiting Mt Feathertop and have made these concerns clear to PV throughout the planning process.

Bushwalking Victoria has two representatives on the FHAC Strategic Advisory Committee and will continue to represent the interests of all bushwalkers through this forum.

Individual bushwalkers are strongly encouraged to make their own assessment of the project and provide feedback to PV by registering to participate in one of the online community sessions scheduled for 13 and 15 September.

For more information visit https://engage.vic.gov.au/falls-to-hotham"

[Lophophaps]

The BWV advice misses a few key points. The track changes will change the character of the walk. Mountain bikes are going to places where they should not be, like the Fainters Track and from The Park to the Langford East Aqueduct. The proposed new tracks will enable riders to go further afield. The individual huts are more expensive than communal huts such as those in NZ and on the Overland Track. I suspect that the small huts are designed for people with deep pockets. Perhaps most importantly, the business case is built on fabricated numbers designed to give a good return on investment. There are virtually no parties doing FHAC via Diamantina Spur, and perhaps 2-500 people a year on FHAC via Dibbins and Swindlers Spur, if that. The suggestion that there are around 10,000 people a year on FHAC now is total malarky, made up, fictional, false. If the starting figure is 2-500 people then the return is 5-20 cents in the dollar, dismal.

[crockle]

Seeing SO MUCH RED and so angry about this - that 5 years after looking in on this atrocious idea - it resurrects itself like Frankenstein's idiot *&%$#! son

As I understand it, they call for Submissions and Community Consultations or whatever - which they will totally ignore.

As I understand it, the whole FHAC proposal is for the construction of a quango. The Government (PV) money builds it, then gets *&%$#! return/no return/a loss on that money. The ongoing maintenance costs are on them. The resort operators / the regional tourism board and possibly unspecified other private entities are 'leased government amenities' in order to provide their fabulous, purely profitable, services to whomsoever will pay.

The business case is a complete fantasy.
That is SO GALLING - when they won't even play by their own economic rationalist rules - whereby things might stand or fall on their economic merits.
Lophophaps case is convincing in this, completely - there is no business case that makes sense.

May as well call it a quango - may as well call it corruption, ,may as well call it private-enterprise welfare.

I understand (and have some empathy with) "Just give up, there's no winning these fights, love the outdoors before it's gone."
But ... dammit, you have to fight the *&%$#!, even down to the very last. Don't you ? ..

I refuse to give up on this matter.

What he said !

FWIW I received a VNPA email about the project this afternoon. [Saw an earlier comment about VNPA having an ineffectual crunchy granola or something and didnt fully grasp the context ]
I thought that their page looks serious, well argued and pugnacious https://vnpa.org.au/stop-alpine-park-de ... b6de86130d

Through them, or else directly, I'd urge everyone to make a submission

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Write real snail mail letters. I am at home today with a cold and runny nose. I can still write letters, real snail mail hand written correspondence to these crooks in the Vic. state Govt. known as Crown ministers.
Tell them what you really think. Do not sit on the fence!......

Letters written and done: tick!!. We need 74 more.
Ony 2 months until a state election. I walk, camp (and BC XC ski ) in the the Bogong High Plains area all year round and I vote.

[crockle]

Write real snail mail letters.

Agree with that approach -in multiple scenarios - it has potentially much more impact than a form email, petition click, even personal email.
After the obligatory letter to Lily D'Ambrosio though - where/who next ?
There's no listed feedback address specifically relating the FHAC on the relevant web page - posting something to the Department generally with 'ATTN FHAC Team' on the envelope is likely to never arrive.
The default fallback letter-sending position is I guess is 1.Your local Member, 2.the Minister and 3.The Premier

Ony 2 months until a state election. I walk, camp (and BC XC ski ) in the the Bogong High Plains area all year round and I vote.

And you're right to emphasise your democratic vote .

But consider the political alternative
By which I mean, more than anything, that the usual threat of changing one's vote to the other mob rings rather hollow here - as with anything even remotely to do with the environment - Bad as this government may be, the alternative phalanx of chaps and chapessess would be, without doubt, very very much worse.

I can tell my local member that I would switch my vote on this issue yes - but if I tell them that means I'll be voting Liberal then I've done nothing but made myself look foolish.
If I tell my local member that I would switch my vote on this issue - and will be voting Victorian Socialists (for instance) - I'll get an indulgent wry smile and a shoulder shrug.

Which is all by way of saying, yes I believe in leveraging democracy's levers and intrinsic rights (people do too little of it, by and large). But this one is an awkward situation ..

[paidal_chalne_vala]

In addition to th e state minister for selling off the natural world to the highest bidder ( SIC), I have written to the State minister for sport and recreation.
.I have not told any of these crooks in Parliament who I am voting for.
I have merely mentioned that I am a rusted on year round regular visitor to the BHP/ FHAC area and am not happy with
any of
the FHAC redevelopment project and that I vote .

It is voting time soon in
VIC.
and suddenly these shysters with their snouts in
the trough and puppets for big business suddenly , mysteriously and
ephemerally grow ears and eyes even if growing a heart and soul is asking far too much of them.

[CraigVIC]

In terms of politics you can look to Victorian fishers as the model of success. They tell the government what they want and the government does their best to give it to them. Was there anything more extraordinary than fishos demanding access to dispersed camping on leased river banks and Labor promising to implement it (in the face of furious farmer backlash)? It's the kind of clout that mtb, 4wd, single track moto or walkers ourselves can only dream of. So what are they doing right?

[Xplora]

In terms of politics you can look to Victorian fishers as the model of success. They tell the government what they want and the government does their best to give it to them. Was there anything more extraordinary than fishos demanding access to dispersed camping on leased river banks and Labor promising to implement it (in the face of furious farmer backlash)? It's the kind of clout that mtb, 4wd, single track moto or walkers ourselves can only dream of. So what are they doing right?

It is about who you know. VR Fish are controlled by ALP members but the riverside camping legislation goes nowhere and has been beat up by right wing media and politicians. Some politicians put false information on their websites just to incite the alarmist response. People believed anyone could trespass on private property to gain access to waterfront. That is not true. I don't think VR Fish got the win it wanted and are now complaining about access being walk in unless there is a proper road. A storm in a tea cup.

The FHAC will NOT be an election issue. There is not enough money or interest in it to make the opposition take notice so the government will simply shrug its shoulders at any negative response. Writing to a government minister will serve no purpose. It will not change the election result. Consider all the letters written to Lily about 'brumbies' trying to stop them from being shot and what has happened? She does not reply. My personal thoughts have always been that the resorts are controlling this project for their own agenda. Resorts have more pull in government than any other lobby group. My prediction will be interest in the accommodation will be for winter activities and the walk is just a means to an end. The resorts will get cheap rent in the park and not have to worry about maintaining it.

Even the media aren't interested in writing a negative story about it. If there was some evidence of corruption in the process that might change things up. Corruption is always news worthy and gets political attention quickly. Nothing shuts a project down quicker than dirty back room deals. Not that I am suggesting that is the case here.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

The whole thing stinks of back room deals made by vested interests. Blind Freddy could see that !
In Hindi the word for it is Bhrishtachari.
Corruption
is the word in English.

[CraigVIC]

That's a fair assessment of the river access that has come to little, undone by a campaign of lies about it's scope. Yet, Labor did draft it and put it out to comment. It was certainly possible it could have got up. Such access to government seems only a dream for bushwalkers.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

The Age newspaper today suggests Dan Andrews will get back into office quite easily.
I recommend people go and enjoy what is left of the natural world before he chops it down, digs it up, sells it all
to the Chinese and then concretes over the entire state including the Beaches( SIC).

[Xplora]

The Age newspaper today suggests Dan Andrews will get back into office quite easily.
I recommend people go and enjoy what is left of the natural world before he chops it down, digs it up, sells it all
to the Chinese and then concretes over the entire state including the Beaches( SIC).

I am just getting a little bit tired of this rhetoric. Perhaps this type of comment is better suited to Facebook. You complain about everything the government does and fail to see those things put forward to protect the environment. Not every decision made by this government is made by Dan. I am not saying the FHAC is one of them but we need an end to the drama and hyperbole. The FHAC will fail and only be a memory in 20 years. BHP has suffered much worse over the years and will suffer more if Vic changes government. FHAC is not dependent on the current government and under an LNP it would continue.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

I have handwritten two snail mail letters written to two state ministers in more balanced but still far from dispassionate tones protesting against the FHAC redevelopment.
The trouble is the Lib/ Labs are the same when it comes to commerical development within our national parks and the incremental privatization of our national parks.

They know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

[crockle]

My personal thoughts have always been that the resorts are controlling this project for their own agenda. Resorts have more pull in government than any other lobby group. My prediction will be interest in the accommodation will be for winter activities and the walk is just a means to an end. The resorts will get cheap rent in the park and not have to worry about maintaining it.

That is the understanding that I am getting from this too

Even the media aren't interested in writing a negative story about it. If there was some evidence of corruption in the process that might change things up. Corruption is always news worthy and gets political attention quickly. Nothing shuts a project down quicker than dirty back room deals. Not that I am suggesting that is the case here.

So a project gets approval and millions of dollars of taxpayer's hard-earned, based on a business case with more holes than a sieve, a shoddy and sometimes incomprehensible plan, possible direct contravention of gazetted legislation, contains danger [literal danger to life and limb of clients] - and for the benefit of private companies that put in none of the seed money, yet happily profit of the back of public infrastructure, likely expanding the scope of their usage as time drifts on.
Yeh, I know some would say that all that is the new normal - but viewed dispassionately, it's really not at all very far from a correct definition of corruption.

Bogong High Plains..will suffer more if Vic changes government. FHAC is not dependent on the current government and under an LNP it would continue

That is also my understanding

My whole family has written submissions (just spellchecking the last of them now - it's the last day for submissions).
So please - for now - don't tell me that there's no point and that we might as well have sent Parks Vic some blank sheets of paper.
OK ?

[Lophophaps]

As far as the public is concerned there is no business case. The figures are redacted, so we cannot see if they add up. For several years there's been a plan to have Halls Island in the Tasmanian World Heritage Area turned into a tourist resort with helicopter access. At one stage in this long saga the local council called for submissions. I cannot recall the exact figures but it was something like 1000 against and around four submissions for the plan. While the 1000+ submissions were ignored by the Tasmanian government, the number of these is a message to at least some decision makers.

Similarly, 90 per cent of the public FHAC Draft Management Plan submissions were against FHAC. A number went into considerable detail. Like Halls Island they were ignored, but we made many good points, on the record, facts, not fabricated information like the DMP and Business Case.

PV is on notice if there's an audit. Unfortunately the audit process takes years, and they don't seem to be interested. If FHAC is built then the real numbers will show who was right.

[crockle]

If FHAC is built then the real numbers will show who was right.

Seems not even to be a matter of possible alternatives - the thing is suicidally, stupidly doomed, based as it it on such a misguided and grossly counter-factual set of assumptions.

Winter and private snow operators changing the scope of the thing - will potentially be a different story ..

I made my submission anyway - eviscerating the draft management plan and the flaccid excuse of a business case for the scheme.
Now it just remains for Parks Vic to classify it, along with others received as 'Overwhelmingly Positive' and slip it into the labelled tray with the smiley face on it.

My next letter, perhaps I'll hand-deliver . I've always wanted to meet Lily, wondering, at times if she really exists ..

[CraigVIC]

Jarred Parsons, Tourism Partnerships Manager at Parks Victoria, will present the GPT as a case study at the TRC conference. Amongst friends, it will probably offer some insight into how Parks sees these icon walk developments.

https://trctourism.wpenginepowered.com/ ... 092022.pdf