Deer cull in Dandenong Ranges National Park

[hzj105]

Was wondering if anyone was aware of this?
I am a regular walker in the Dandenong ranges and I have seen first hand some ADA members in action in the Alpine National Park. Their disregard for the safety of other park users was disturbing as they shot a deer twenty meters from my tent.
I am more than a little worried.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/east ... 6918796853
http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/__data/assets ... A_2014.pdf

[sambar358]

hzj105 : According to your second link one of the FAQ responses from Parks Victoria states : "Will the parks be closed during deer control operations? Yes. The parks will be closed for public safety during deer control operations." So you have nothing to worry about at all because when deer control operations are being conducted those specific areas will be closed to the public.

On your other incident : Did you go and talk to the hunters concerned....you must have I guess because you stated that they were ADA members. Did it happen at night as it would be pretty unusual for a sambar deer to be 20m away from an occupied campsite during the day ? If it happened at night it should be mentioned that spotlighting sambar is illegal and there are no authorised sambar control operations being conducted in the ANP. If the sambar that was shot close to your camp was at night then this was done by individuals acting illegally and it should not be compared to the DEPI/PV managed deer culling operations that your 2 links refer to.

If there is a level of concern within the community about deer imapacts in some Parks then clearly something needs to be done to address this. Despite what some may think....capture, relocation and other non-lethal options are not effective means of control and the only solution is to shoot them. Contrary to popular belief Victoria (and NSW) do not have armies of highly trained government employed professional shooters who can perform these tasks. Over the past few years several efforts to control sambar deer in some of Melbournes water catchments by professional contractors proved fairly ineffective and very expensive with little real impact on deer numbers as the operation was short term and quite intensive and the deer simply wised-up and didn't play the game. Maintaining pressure over the longer term via low-impact culling by skilled hunters using specific techniques suited to the terrain and the movements of the deer is the answer as the deer will quickly adapt to heavy short-term pressure as was demonstrated by the failed Melbourne water catchment exercises several years ago.

DEPI & PV have been working with the key deer hunting organisations for 4-5 years to get these deer management programs up and running to address deer build-up issues in areas that are not open to recereational hunting,never have been.......and never will be of course. Hunters accredited to participate in these programs must pass a comprehensive range of written and practical tests including safety awareness, a high level of compentency with their firearm and knowledge of deer anatomy to ensure a quick and clean kill. Shooting is usually done from elevated stands and often at night under a spotlight which is legal for the purpose of these exercises. These are considered to be the most effective methods and of course happen when members of the public are excluded from the area as mentioned previously. Some media reports of these initiatives have been quite alarmist in stating that these areas "will be crawling with heavily armed hunters"....quite the opposite in fact as the accredited hunter numbers are quite low and they are allocated to small specific areas by a PV controller and usually hunt singly or as a team of two. I expect that this program will be quite successful in reducing the number of fallow and sambar deer in these small Parks and it is in no way,shape or form recreational hunting....simply culling animals that have increased in numbers over time to the level that now there is a concern by the land managers that they are impacting both on the physical environment and the native wildlife that inhabit it.

So essentially that's what will be happening from time to time in some of these small Parks in the Dandenongs. Some areas will be closed for short periods of time while small numbers of trained hunters attempt to cull-out some of the resident sambar and fallow deer. Most of these deer control activities will be conducted at night however if there are any concerns about this then people intending to visit the DRNP should contact the regional PV office and seek advice on this program, what areas it is being conducted in and when. There is certainly nothing "secret squirrel" about any of this and in reality I would expect very little if any disruption to the normal visitor patterns to these areas due to the deer management activities being undertaken. Cheers

s358

[sambar358]

Ooops....double post ! Now deleted. Sorry 'bout that ! Cheers

s358

[hzj105]

The incident was with a dog team "illegally"inside the alpine national park and apart from "citizens arrest" I did all I could. My wife and I spoke with those involved whom were just smart *&^%$#@! and didn't really care they thought it was funny. I Gave all car registration numbers to parks vic and also gave details to the Ada. I had responses from both but nothing ever eventuated

There were several vehicles and it was six in the morning the bailed the deer up 20m from the camp, shot it twice and left the gut bag there. Lovely gift on the first day of a four day fishing trip. The camp next door had young children and they were frightened with men walking around the camp with guns for the best part of an hour as they waited for dogs. , it is the most irresponsible behaviour I have witnessed
I am not against deer hunting its just that small minority that ruin it for everyone.

[neilmny]

Sambar,

The deer was 20m away in daylight driven by dogs and in the Alpine National Park, you are responding as if you are being told lies. The clowns were spoken to by my daughter and the response was basically "f" off, the deer was gutted on the side of the track and the guts left there. Not all your ADA members are responsible, a lot are cowboy clowns who proudly emblazen there vehicles with the ADA logo and do the ADA no favours. The incident was reported to the ADA.

The thought of idiots like these running loose in local parks shooting deer scares the *&%$#! out of me. These parks have hundreds of access points, is there going to be someone from Parks on every access point or is there going to be a blanket warning on various media telling people to stay the hell out of the Parks while the cull is on.

I apprerciate that you seem to be a responsible person Sambar but don't see it through rose coloured glasses. There is a huge element of danger here like it or not.

[photohiker]

If someone let off a firearm 20 metres from my tent in an Australian National park I would not be first contacting the ADA and Parks. I would be contacting police. There is no doubt that this is illegal activity and should not be tolerated for a single second.

If hzj105 still has the information collected at the scene, I suggest it be handed over to the police.

[sambar358]

hzj105 & neil....my response was just intended to seek further information from the original poster as all hzj105 said was "I have seen first hand some ADA members in action in the Alpine National Park. Their disregard for the safety of other park users was disturbing as they shot a deer twenty meters from my tent." Now that he has clarified this statement with some more information the event is far clearer to us all.

Firstly, hunting with hounds in the ANP (or any Vic Park in fact) is illegal so those blokes and their hounds were severely out-of-order. No dogs are permitted in Parks....period ! But unfortunately this is not an uncommon occurence due largely to the lack of enforcement and the large area that PV Rangers need to cover and this is exploited as you have witnessed by a small number of hound teams who have no respect for the law or other users of public land. But please don't tar us all with the same brush....seasonal stalking (Feb 15-Dec 15) is a permissible activity in much of the ANP but no dogs are permitted to be used and generally stalkers operate singly or maybe with a mate and tend to use the more remote areas of the Park to hunt in. Your enconter with an illegal hound team hunting in the ANP was not representive of all hunters but none-the-less I'm sure that it spoilt your fishing trip which was unfortunate.

You did the right thing by reporting the incident to PV and the ADA and I can assure you that it would have been taken seriously by them & I would be pretty certain that PV & ADA would have followed it up if given specific information such as vehicle registration numbers, exact location and even the name of the hound owner on the dogs collar if you were able to catch-up a hound. As Photohiker has suggested....I would have also contacted the Police and passed that information on to them as discharging a firearm in close proximity to campsites and individuals is certainly against the law and the Police would have grounds to deal with these individuals to a degree that would most likely to have them loose their firearms and their shooters licence for some time. Obvioulsy you need some hard evidence to ID these sorts of people and this can be difficult to obtain : these blokes know they are acting illegally so it's likely that they have their vehicle number plates muddied-up or are running false or no plates and probably the hounds will not be wearing ID collars (which must state the name, address and phone number of the hound owner) which is a requirement by law. And most likely they'd be a bunch of rough-looking hard-ar##s that most of us wouldn't feel comfortable confronting either.....so a difficult situation all 'round.

And hunting associations can only do so much and of course only police their own members and unfortunately as membership of a deer hunting organisation is not a compulsory requirement most of these sorts of blokes are beyond the reach of ADA or the other AHO's....but they can't dance-aropund the long arm of the law of course. So I'd encourage anyone experiencing such an incident to make the effort to get involved and report it as soon as possible to the local PV office, the Police on 000 or just ring the Parks Victoria Hotline on 131963......the more specific information on "where,what, when,who and how" that you can provide the better. Cheers

s358

[stry]

Neil and HZJ - I certainly understand why someone would feel as you do if they had been subjected to behaviour of that sort. Fortunately I haven't been (to date)

I think Neil that you may be a little at cross purposes with Sambar's post. I read that post as an attempt to provide clarification and reassurance regarding the culling operations referred to. The post also appeared to explain the clear distinction between those culling operations and recreational hunting.

I didn't read any contradiction, or challenging of the truth of, the account by yourself and HZJ of the illegal and anti social activities that you were subjected to. Certainly I can't find any insinuations of lying.

Sadly, Parks and Police are fairly thin on the ground, but the advice given by photohiker is very sound. Rural police do not like this sort of thing in their patch. They also don't like camping areas being torn up by vehicles, and home made bombs going off, all of which can occur in rural areas from time to time.

My experience has been that if Police have sufficient, appropriate, information they will act. They do get results. They won't get a result from every report. Even if they don't get a result from a particular report, I can guarantee you that rego numbers, decriptions, names etc will be noted and remembered. Your report may very well assist in getting an outcome from a future problem. Patterns emerge.

The process may not be as quick as we would like, and some persistence on our part is necessary, but it is well worth pursuing, and not being discouraged.

[Cauchs]

Hunters accredited to participate in these programs must pass a comprehensive range of written and practical tests including safety awareness, a high level of compentency with their firearm and knowledge of deer anatomy to ensure a quick and clean kill. Shooting is usually done from elevated stands and often at night under a spotlight which is legal for the purpose of these exercises.
s358

Is it done from an elevated spot so any missed shot or pass through will likely go into the ground? Souds a bit like the European style where they hunt very close to towns and households.

It sounds like this would be a safe operation. These guys can usually identify the sex and age of an animal before even loading their rifle, so I can't imagine how they could mistake a human for a deer.

Sounds far safer than even a planned burn. The repercussions of ineffective warning of park users for something like a burn would be far more likely to effect park users.

[sim1oz]

Happy if they get rid of the deer. Just don't want to be anywhere near there when there's shooting. The noise is annoying.

[sambar358]

Sim1oz....this program certainly won't "get rid of the deer" as you put it but it may manage their numbers in some areas and if applied over the longer term have some impact on their increase and extension into new areas. This program is about population supression not eradication.....in short "nothing with eradicate the deer....they are here to stay". The sambar and fallow deer numbers in the Dandenong Ranges NP's have built-up over time due to a number of factors including the bushfires which created ideal feed and cover for them and as these areas have never been open to recreational hunting they have been essentially sanctaries for the deer allowing them to flourish and increase their numbers gradually over a long time.

There won't be "a lot of shooting" with this program as I've explained in my previous posts and the bush (contrary to alarmist media reports) won't be crawling with heavily armed hunters but rather one or two hunters will be used at random times in areas which will be closed to the public for short periods. It's likely that any shooting done will be in the form of a shot or two in the early morning, late evening or at night. So no major disturbances and as the areas being targeted for a cull will be closed to the public it is unlikely that any visitors to the general location will be affronted by noise pollution in the form of a rifle shot. But having said that.....high powered rifles make a fair bang and the sound will carry for some distance but if vistors to the DRNP are aware of the deer cull program and comply with the exclusion conditions to specific areas being culled at that time then no one has anything to be concerned about I believe. Cheers

s358

[hamishm]

I've seen hunters out many times while cycling near Lake Mountain (most commonly on the Warburton-Woods Point Rd / Reefton Spur). I counted over six hunters one Saturday morning a few months ago. Shots are heard occasionally which is fairly disturbing. I've heard screaming animals too.

[Earwig]

Here's a link to some info from PV on the deer cull program in Dandenong Ranges area.

http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/625177/Deer_Control_Program_QA_2014.pdf

[stry]

I've seen hunters out many times while cycling near Lake Mountain (most commonly on the Warburton-Woods Point Rd / Reefton Spur). I counted over six hunters one Saturday morning a few months ago. Shots are heard occasionally which is fairly disturbing. I've heard screaming animals too.

You're a pretty determined cyclist Hamish. Well done.

Screaming ?? Don't know what that would be.

Koalas can make some pretty weird noises, and cats can yowl and screech a bit, but I don't know what that "screaming" would be from.

[neilmny]

Black Cockies make a call that sounds like kids squeeling?????????????

[MickyB]

I've seen hunters out many times while cycling near Lake Mountain (most commonly on the Warburton-Woods Point Rd / Reefton Spur). I counted over six hunters one Saturday morning a few months ago. Shots are heard occasionally which is fairly disturbing. I've heard screaming animals too.

You're a pretty determined cyclist Hamish. Well done.

Screaming ?? Don't know what that would be.

Koalas can make some pretty weird noises, and cats can yowl and screech a bit, but I don't know what that "screaming" would be from.

I assumed hamish meant that the animals were screaming from the pain of being shot.

[stry]

I've seen hunters out many times while cycling near Lake Mountain (most commonly on the Warburton-Woods Point Rd / Reefton Spur). I counted over six hunters one Saturday morning a few months ago. Shots are heard occasionally which is fairly disturbing. I've heard screaming animals too.

You're a pretty determined cyclist Hamish. Well done.

Screaming ?? Don't know what that would be.

Koalas can make some pretty weird noises, and cats can yowl and screech a bit, but I don't know what that "screaming" would be from.

I assumed hamish meant that the animals were screaming from the pain of being shot.

Certainly a possibility but unlikely, I thought, hence the query. Trailing/coursing hounds is a far more likely sound to hear, but wouldn't be heard as screaming. The rapidly becoming verminous flying fox is another source of weird, albeit nocturnal, noises that comes to mind.

Hadn't even considered black cockies Neil. Thanks for that.

[Travis22]

Never heard a deer scream when shot. I suspect something else made the noise too.

Travis.

[Strider]

Bunyips.

[stry]

Grizzbats ? (nope - grizzbats would be more likely to growl)

[MrAndy]

I've seen hunters out many times while cycling near Lake Mountain (most commonly on the Warburton-Woods Point Rd / Reefton Spur). I counted over six hunters one Saturday morning a few months ago. Shots are heard occasionally which is fairly disturbing. I've heard screaming animals too.

Well hunters are also allowed to enjoy the outdoors are they not? And as for hearing the occasional shot, one would generally link the two together. I struggle to see how its disturbing though. Did you feel in danger? If so, why?

I'm not sure how you have heard "screaming animals" as deer are typically an extremely silent/quite animal. The only sound they really make is a "honk" when they are suspicious of something which they cannot see. So I doubt whatever the screaming it was that you heard was a result of hunting.

My vote is for drop bears or yowies.

[Strider]

It was probably hamishm screaming as he ran away

[MrAndy]

I'll admit, once a car backfired on the street near me and I had the fright of my life.... for about 3seconds until I calmed down and went back to my coffee.

For the record I'm fine with people hunting as long as they are compliant with the law. I do wish there was more enforcement and consequences for anyone who broke the rules though. Its just something which is difficult under the current enforcement system to apply. But if some one is doing 90 in an 80 zone, do people really think dropping it down to a 70 zone will fix the problem?

[Earwig]

Something to ponder ...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-09/victoria-marketed-as-destination-for-trophy-hunters/5509576?section=vic

[neilmny]

Now thats getting scarey Ian. So how does an overseas vsitor get to bring into the country, or if not bring in, possess (have in hand) someone elses, be in charge of, abide by the weapon storage and ammunition storage rules and in actual fact gain a Victorian hunting license to make all of the above legal?
Looks like a desperate and cynical last ditch effort to win some votes later this year after doing stuff all about anything at all for years. One thing is for sure they are helping me make my mind up.

[sambar358]

Neil.....no need to get too paranoid about all this.....it's just government spin and overseas hunters have been coming to Victoria to hunt sambar and hog deer for many years. There is nothing new here....the Vic Govt has just realised it and are trying to make something of it. The Victorian Firearms Licencing system has provision within it to cater for visitors bringing in a firearm to hunt with, participate in competition shooing etc and as long as the individual is appropriately licensed for that firearm and it is a legal firearm under AU law then they will be granted a visitors short-term firearms licence for the duration of their visit with the same security storage and usage requirements for resident firearm owners. I have travelled to the US and NZ a few times hunting and there are extensive customs import/export compliance requirements both for getting a firearm out of AU and into the country of destination and back again. Your paperwork and firearm is checked with some vigour at both ends I assure you so any international hunter coming to AU for some game hunting will need to comply totally with our entry requirements both personally and in realation to the type of firearm that they are permitted to bring into the country. So we won't be seeing Yank hunters coming here with a big handgun strapped to their hip and bristling with military-style weapons as they may be able to do back home. When in Rome.....etc.

The Vic govt. have just cottoned-on to the fact that there are 30,000 licenced deer hunters in Victoria (and increasing at about 10% per annum) and that these and short-stay hunters visiting from interstate and overseas are injecting some pretty serious dollars into the Vic rural economy each year especially in some of the isolated towns in the deer range back in the mountains. Like other recreational persuits in these areas at various times of the year, hunters are being acknowledged as contributing significant dollars to these locations when other visitor levels are low during the colder months. In the broader sense the larger "hunting industry" encompasses manufacturing and sales of hunting-specific clothing, a huge range of equipment, 4WD vehicles and of course generates significant Govt revenue in the form of licence fees for Vic Shooters & Game licences. All the Vic government is doing with this latest media revelation is acknowledging that the hunting industry is growing quite rapidly and that the amount of funds injected into the Victorian economy as a result of this is significant and will increase going forward. Nothing here to worry about I think....the reality is that most people visiting the Vic ANP and other areas of public land in the mountains are sharing the bush on any given winter weekend with a few deer hunters.....but most times they just don't realise it. Cheers

s358

[Earwig]

The Age ran an article on deer hunters working with Parks Vic in the Saturday magazine bit last weekend.

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/the-deer-hunters-20140609-39ruk.html

I love the quote from one of the organising hunters.

'Hunters "participate" in nature, Garlick says. "We really understand the lower-level being in the environment, because you're part of the environment as a hunter. You're not a bushwalker, who just walks along and sniffs a few flowers and looks at things. You are participating in nature." '

Guess I better kill something next time I'm hiking.

EDIT - Not saying that deer aren't a pest or that the hunting fraternity shouldn't be used to control them; just questioning the attitude. I suppose I don't feel I have to kill something to participate in nature.

[sambar358]

Earwig.....yep I cringed a bit when I read that quote from Steve Garlick and I know Steve well and respect his opinion on things. I would imagine it was more intended as a bit of a a joke than anything else.....but the article could have done without that comment I think. I'm sure that we all immerse ourselves in nature when out in the bush and I (as as hunter) must admit that I've been known to stop now and again to admire some of the flora on my wanderings as I'm sure Steve would have. I think the broader point that he was making in regards to being part of the environment was more to show that as a hunter you need to be very observant of the little things in the bush that may indicated the presence of a deer.....so I notice the small things like a subtle movement, a bit of color that's not quite the same as the trees and bushes, the flip of an ear or the snap of a twig etc as to me these can be indicators that a deer is nearby. And a valued bi-produict of this is that I often observe interesting things in nature that are totally unrelated to the deer and my hunting.....as I'm sure most people who enjoy the bush experience do also.

Most keen deer hunters do a lot more "hunting" than "shooting" and we regard the total hunting experience as the important thing to get out of time spent in the bush rather than the kill. Often to me the kill is the downside of a hunt as it results in the death of an animal that I have learnt to respect over my 40+ years hunting and of course it also means a lot of hard work and effort retrieving the venison from the bush and doing justice to the animal for taking it. For me "firing a shot" often spoils a good walk in the bush and I'm sure those sentiments are shared by many other hunters who enjoy their bush experience just as much as anyone else in the forest....so in essence Earwig I think that many hunters would share your view that "I don't feel I have to kill something to participate in nature"......as often we are doing just that. Cheers

s358

[MickyB]

For me "firing a shot" often spoils a good walk in the bush

Why hunt then? Why don't you just go bushwalking?

[icefest]

For me "firing a shot" often spoils a good walk in the bush and I'm sure those sentiments are shared by many other hunters who enjoy their bush experience just as much as anyone else in the forest....so in essence Earwig I think that many hunters would share your view that "I don't feel I have to kill something to participate in nature"......as often we are doing just that. Cheers

s358

So why not take photos of animals instead? You have all the necessary skills to stalk them and get some incredible shots, I'm sure.