Are you a rock climber?

[sandym]

Posted in the Victoria page but climbers from all over the country will be disheartened to learn that the climbing bans in Mount Arapilies have been extended to include more areas including the iconic TipToe Ridge. If you care, and I think you should because creeping closures are coming to many National Parks, you can respond as suggested in the link.

https://savegrampiansclimbing.org/2024/ ... permanent/

[johnrs]

Yes please respond! This is really bad news.
John

[paidal_chalne_vala]

I am not a rock climber but my contempt for the way this healthy pastime is being shut down is palpable.

[bernieq]

No point in arguing against any of the exclusions - based on this quote from the consultation doc ... note, this consultation will not be reviewing any changes to the areas that need to be protected.

[Baeng72]

No point in arguing against any of the exclusions - based on this quote from the consultation doc ... note, this consultation will not be reviewing any changes to the areas that need to be protected.

Well, if there's no pushback, they'll feel more comfortable doing the next restriction.
Also, you'd be amazed at the backtracking politicians and government bodies will do if it gets uncomfortable.
Or not. What do I know?

[Lophophaps]

For many years I have seen firm government policy relating to conservation overturned due to rational, objections from people like us. The best way is to send polite, forceful and reasonable emails to politicians. Emphasising the economics is a good starting point. Baeng72 is right - make pollies uncomfortable. If enough people say that they will not vote for the local member he or she may oppose the ban. The ban does not sit well with me at all.

[sandym]

Well, if there's no pushback, they'll feel more comfortable doing the next restriction.
Also, you'd be amazed at the backtracking politicians and government bodies will do if it gets uncomfortable.
Or not. What do I know?

So true, where have we seen that recently, hm.

[bernieq]

My comment relates to the management plan & the consultation which is being run by Parks Vic (not politicians). Any arguments about exclusions in submissions to the consultation will be disregarded. I imagine (but don't know) that agreement between 1st nations groups & Parks are already in place and not up for reconsideration.

Sure, approach politicians directly and make such arguments - they're motivated by different criteria. Perceptions of votes/public opinion are much more important than financial arguments in my experience.

[durks]

I live in the UK, and this issue is being discussed by climbers there.

Meanwhile: there's a well-argued open letter against the proposals available for signing (should you want to) at:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... c3W1u3ITVQ

[paidal_chalne_vala]

A New Zealander wrote a letter to the Age newspaper in SE Australia which was published today regarding this matter.
Another local from Natimuk has written a similar letter to The Age newspaper saying that this restriction
on climbing Mt. Arapiles will deleteriously affect the economy of the small
town of Natimuk , near Mt. Arapiles.

Blanket bans on climbing sections of terrain of the Grampians and Mt. Arapiles with little transparent and fair consulation with the global clminbing community will have negative effects on the local economy of Western Victoria and on the international reputation of Victoria as a world climbing destination.As always in Victoria when it comes to properly funding the proper management of our state parks and national Parks it is aways easier to just shut everything down and say it is an indigenous peoples' sacred site or a rare beetle or orchid has been discovered on site rather than consulting the stake holders in a transparent and fair decision making process. I doubt this farcical charade would be acceptable anywhere else . The way parks on public land are better funded and managed in NSW and TAS is a lesson for everyone in VIC.

[north-north-west]

The way parks on public land are better funded and managed in ... TAS is a lesson for everyone in VIC.

Please excuser me while I laugh hysterically for the rest of the day.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

In comparison with VIC. TAS is doing some things right.

[JamesMc]

It's important for bushwalkers to understand that we can expect similar broad-scale prohibitions of access to public land as rock climbers are experiencing. Already, access to about a third of the Victoria Range is prohibited. This does not simply apply to locations where cultural heritage is known to exist but to sites where cultural heritage MIGHT exist.

If you don't want your bushwalking to be restricted to just walks like the Grampians Peaks Trail and the Falls Creek - Mt Hotham Alpine Traverse, you should support climbers in pushing back on this.

[Lophophaps]

I was unaware of the Victoria Range prohibitions. Some years ago I sought advice from PV about the Grampians Peak Trail and nearby camping. As far as I can recall there was no reply. Is camping away from designated spots allowed in the Grampians? I accept some restrictions such as proximity to roads, creeks and the like. Like many others, a day after I leave such places the grass has come up and any trace is gone. If there's a fair return for the cost I'll happily pay for a campsite. Mostly this is not the case. Also, while a paid "booking" may be made for a campsite in a remote place like Dibbins Hut on the FHAC, there is no requirement for PV to make sure that someone else does not camp there. If this happens there are no remedies at law.

Maybe 40 years ago there was an article about booking for climbs, possibly Yosemite. This is still not the case here, but it's getting closer. There may be a system where, say, Tiger Wall may only have two parties a day. I wonder what mass civil disobedience would look like. A rope is 80 metres up and the ranger on the ground says "You'll have to come down" or "You're under arrest."

[CraigVIC]

I was unaware of the Victoria Range prohibitions. Some years ago I sought advice from PV about the Grampians Peak Trail and nearby camping. As far as I can recall there was no reply. Is camping away from designated spots allowed in the Grampians?

Everything going on at the Grampians is a mess. Consider a couple of hikers heading to do the first section of the GPT. One downloads the official visitor guide from the Parks website and finds that happily with some minor restrictions informal camping is allowed along most of the route. Another hiker misses the visitor guide but thoroughly reads the GPT section of the Parks website; there they find in the faq that informal camping is explicitly banned along the GPT route. Yet another hiker calls Brambuk to ask over the phone; it becomes obvious to them that the staff don't know anything about hiking and don't have a clue about the park rules around off-track walking and so on but nevertheless they are emphatic that it's not allowed.

Imagine a world where Parks just had an open, friendly relationship with the public. We'd know what was going on with the visitor guide. We'd know what was happening with the climber permits. We'd know if there was a grace period happening or not. We'd know if they are going to add the SPAs and remote boundaries to Avenza so they are available at a useful scale. Instead, we know s*&^%$#a.

As for solidarity with climbers, we can't even get any basic solidarity amongst hikers.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

The Victoria range in the Grampians is a wild place . PV simply don't have funding or staff to chase and arrest people trying to carry out low impact recreation on public land.
I can see that all parks in Vic. will become user pays cash cows in which you pay for The big hike at big ticket prices and that is all you are permitted to do.
It is cr*p but the Blue and Red tie Parties in VIC. see the Big Ticket hikes in TAS and NZ and try to emulate that kind of incremental privatization in Vic. because they see it
as being profitable.
Of course Nat. Parks must be profitable and the User must pay. Forget the other reasons why Nat. parks are important. That is just greenie socialist psycho babble scientist hippie shyte.

[Lophophaps]

PCV, thanks. It sounds confusing. I've camped on Mount William and near the Dials, but that's about it for east of the Halls Gap-Dunkeld Road. In the Victoria Range I've camped in many places, most near The Fortress. Further north I've camped near Difficult and Briggs Bluff, on the ridge and more or less on the same altitude as the road. Like many walkers, after a day you could not see where we had stopped.

It seems that climbers are not as well organised or have the lobbying experience compared to bushwalkers.

One reason Victoria will never be the same as Milford, Larapinta or the overland is that the scenery is quite different here. Attempting to match these destinations by saying they are as good or better is doomed to failure. Instead the differences should be promoted. Does anyone have reliable figures for the number of people and income or economic return for the Grampians and Otways coast walks? I know that the Falls to Hotham numbers are still a tiny fraction of the PV-consultant figures.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

The tiny Western Victorian Town of Natimuk gets reportedly 80% of its income from Climbers visiting them and spending their money there. Of course no red tie party M.P.s have a seat there so it means no pain at the ballot box on election day.
The FHAC redevelopment scheme seems to be slowly dying due to lack of funding. It is in effect becoming merely a feeding trough for flashy city based consultants and their Italian suits, expensive lunches written off on Tax and shiny brochures of pipe dreams for imaginary glampers who will not come and if they actually do then they will never return having earned bragging rights for the rest of their sofa sitting junk food consuming bound lives.
The FHAC scheme now merely promises camping platforms on the High Knob campsite. I am not sure the Heli pad for slaves to be flown into peel grapes for glampers is still being entertained.
IMHO it is all a trojan horse for the Two Big Ski resorts in the area to introduce Heli skiing .
In actual fact if it were to proceed I wonder how many skiers would be able to afford it and have the back country skills to SAFELY ski the terrain on offer on the Razorback and Mt . Feathertop?.
NZ does heli skiing well and has better terrain and more operations already in place. Plus they actually have snow which is a decreasing comodity each winter in a Global warming affected Vic. Alps environment.

[Baeng72]

Continuing PCV's off-topic musings, how many people are gonna want to walk from High Knob to the summit of Feathertop for Heli skiing? Wouldn't they just want to dropped on Feathertop summit and ski down avalanche gully, have porters take them back up? It doesn't seem like the type of person wanting a "insta" experience or a difficult downhill skiing experiience, is the type to grind it back up the side of Feathertop after a run down. OR I've just misunderstood what's proposed...And the cost...

[CraigVIC]

This is drifting a long way off the topic of actual bans that have really happened in Arapilies. Although LTOs have been protected (of course) the issue is about how heritage protections are implemented rather than Parks chasing in-bound tourist dollars.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Climbers like Bushwalkers and XC skiers are not well known for their gold AMEX cards so they can all GGF and nothing bad will happen.
That is IMHO the thinking involved in this charade, if there is any thinking involved at all.
"No Thoughts to think, No tears to cry, all sucked dry "( Roger Waters / Amused to death ).
Moreover if any location is more than 60 kms from Spring street then the chances are it doesn't really exist and they can all
just cry into their trailmix.

[sandym]

Rock climbers are a relatively small group and, while bushwalkers are a small group they are a much bigger group than rock climbers. It's just super easy to close down any small community because there are not enough people to complain. If rock climbers had the group numbers that, for example, fishermen (?fisherpeople?) have, this sort of stuff would not happen.

BTW, heli-skiing on Feathertop is, sorry if you are offended, ludicrous.

If you are Victorian, my apologies, but you have what is apparently the most high-handed and authoritarian government in the history of Australia, and let's not even talk about the ever increasing tax burden to pay their deficit funding. There's a meme about this but in the interests of civil dialogue I won't post it here.

[north-north-west]

If you are Victorian, my apologies, but you have what is apparently the most high-handed and authoritarian government in the history of Australia...

You obviously don't know much Australian history. One does not even have to go back very far ... ever heard of Joh?

[Aardvark]

You obviously don't know much Australian history. One does not even have to go back very far ... ever heard of Joh?

Don't drag Queensland into this.
We have the sense to be going down that 'road of progress' a lot slower than anyone else.

[north-north-west]

You obviously don't know much Australian history. One does not even have to go back very far ... ever heard of Joh?

Don't drag Queensland into this.
We have the sense to be going down that 'road of progress' a lot slower than anyone else.

It's history. It happened. It flatly contradicts Sandy's assertion. I could cite a lot of other examples as well, but that's the most recent one.

[Lophophaps]

Australian governments of all persuasions had and have trodden on the masses. Often this is due to a large majority or the electoral impact being minimal. Who cares about a small town in eastern Victoria and an international climbing location if it will not affect the government much? This is especially so with a number of other major Victorian political problems. If a seat is very safe one way or another then it often gets ignored by governments. This is why I am attracted to a majority of just a few seats, with all seats held by a small number of votes.

The VEC
https://www.vec.vic.gov.au/results/stat ... on-results
has the results of the last state election for the Horsham region, but I cannot find them. Can anyone assist?

[scroggin]

If you are Victorian, my apologies, but you have what is apparently the most high-handed and authoritarian government in the history of Australia, and let's not even talk about the ever increasing tax burden to pay their deficit funding. There's a meme about this but in the interests of civil dialogue I won't post it here.

I'm sympathetic to the rock climbers at Arapiles, but that's a ridiculous claim.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

https://savegrampiansclimbing.org/2024/ ... -the-plan/

https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/get-i ... -arapiles/

The Sunday age newspaper ran an article on page 4 today about this issue on 17-11-24.

[Lophophaps]

The following is a bit long but it's worth citing.

Climbing Victoria 4 November 2024

It is now still less than 4 days since the Jacinta Allan government released the far reaching proposals to change Dyurrite Mt Arapiles.

Since our initial media release earlier this week, we have now had time to digest the details and consider the implications and consequences. We acknowledge the impact and pain felt throughout our community, along with the potential risk to jobs, livelihoods and peoples futures.

We are working tirelessly on a number of fronts. Key initial activities include:
1 In conjunction with the Natimuk Economic and Social Strategy Committee we are sponsoring a petition supported by Emma Kealy MP for Lowan. This petition will be available in the very near future and we are aiming to raise at least 10,000 signatures from Victorian residents so it will have to be heard in parliament. This petition will be calling for a full engagement consultation process.

2 We have secured a meeting with the Minister for Environment, Steve Dimpolous to raise the concerns of the climbing community and other affected stakeholders. We shall also be seeking a guarantee of a genuine and comprehensive consultation to be undertaken and with climbing and the local community, not the sham process that is currently in place.

3 We are working with a network of other key climbing organisations across Australia that have come to our assistance. This demonstrates the value and importance of Dyurrite Mt Arapiles to interstate and international visitors that then visit other parts of Victoria. The first action will be an open letter from these organisations directed to the Allan government.

4 Obtaining greater detail and clarity from Parks Victoria on the details of the proposed management plan for Dyurrite Mt Arapiles.

5 Media interviews and the provision of information to the media has been another key task.

6 Last but not least, we have clarified with Parks Victoria that the Pines Campground will remain open and unchanged as will the road around it.
.
We continue to fully support and respect the Barengi Gadjin Land Councils’ (BGLC) right to protect cultural heritage and Climbing Victoria are keen to work with BGLC to continue to find solutions so that climbing and the preservation of cultural heritage can coexist in harmony.

We will keep you updated as and when we can.

In the meantime, keep going to Dyurrite Mt Arapiles, it is still open. Go in peace.

You can contact us at hello@climbingvictoria.com

If this situation is causing you anxiety or distress, please reach to Beyond Blue 1300 224 636 or Lifeline 13 11 14.

***********************************************************************************

Victorian Climbing Club email to members 11 November 2024

The VCC committee were shocked and distressed by the Mount Arapiles-Tooan State Park (Dyurrite Cultural Landscape) amended management plan that was released by the Victorian Government on 4 November 2024. The amended plan includes climbing bans across a substantial area of Arapiles/Dyurrite.

We call on VCC members to voice their view. Act now before it is too late! We are working with Climbing Victoria and other interested parties to resolve the situation fairly. In the meantime, here’s a list of things you can do now:

1. The committee needs assistance from club members with expertise in media and PR, and legal services. Please contact me if you can help. My email is below.

2. Make a submission to the amended management plan. See our suggested ‘talking points’ below. The deadline is 1 December so act now!

3. Contact your local state member of parliament to voice your view. It is also probably worthwhile to voice your concerns to members of the opposition:
- John Pesutto, leader of the opposition: john.pesutto@parliament.vic.gov.au
- Sam Groth, Shadow Minister for Tourism, Sport and Events sam.groth@parliament.vic.gov.au

4. Sign a petition. There are several on the go:
a. ‘Rock-climbing in Mt Arapiles’ is sponsored by Emma Kealy, Member for Lowan. This is the
preferred petition because it requires a minimum number of signatures to be tabled in
Parliament. You need to be a Victorian resident to sign, and ask friends and family to sign
as well!
b. There is another petition called Save Natimuk! Stop the rock climbing ban at the famous Mt Arapiles!
c. There is a written petition organised by Pat Ford of the Arapiles Historical Society. If you’re in Natimuk, see if you can get hold of Pat or check at Arapiles Mountain Shop.
d. Climbing Victoria is sponsoring an Open Letter Regarding Climbing at Arapiles/Dyurrite
that is also supported by interstate climbing organisations. I have signed this petition on
behalf of VCC but personal signatories are welcome.

5. Contact Emma Kealy directly to register your interest. Emma has been understandably
bombarded lately so keep your message short.

6. Write to Steve Dimopoulos, State Labor Minister for Parks Victoria, at
steve.dimopoulos@parliament.vic.gov.au. This is probably the most important one. We expect halting or amending the amended plan will require a decision at the State Government level.

We have attached the latest update from Climbing Victoria. The committee will continue to contact members regularly over the next few weeks to keep you up-to-date. We expect to make a call for coming days.

But now - take action! We have less than three weeks to make submissions responding to the management plan.

Steve Toal
VCC President

***********************************************************************************

The most critical part is to contact decision-makers using your own words based on the above. In particular, ask Parks Victoria why climbers and locals were not consulted. PV has to reply; politicians do not. Email the latter too, make them aware of the discontent. It would be good if NGOs like VNPA, TWS, and ACF could get members making submissions. A tidal wave of these will make a difference, just like it did with Falls Hotham and Halls Island.

[Biggles]

Posted in the Victoria page but climbers from all over the country will be disheartened to learn that the climbing bans in Mount Arapilies have been extended to include more areas including the iconic TipToe Ridge. If you care, and I think you should because creeping closures are coming to many National Parks, you can respond as suggested in the link.

https://savegrampiansclimbing.org/2024/ ... permanent/

"...creeping closures are coming to many National Parks."

Really??
The others [National Parks] are — where??
The rock closures are affecting beginner and intermediate routes AFAIK.