Ideal Tracks for beginners

[cams]

If you're going to carry rope you'd better know how to use it, otherwise it could get you into more trouble. It can be hard to tell how hard a section of scrambling is from the notes. Heading somewhere like Girraween is a good place to do plenty of rock scrambling.

Phil was it climbing tape? Tubular nylon tape used mainly for rigging anchors and slings. If so it's not exactly new. Very strong per weight. Not as abrasion resistant as rope though.

There's no way in hell I'd hang from 4mm accessory cord. It's rated at 3.3kN which could easily be generated with a very small fall on it. I'd only use it as a pull cord to extend the length of the abseil line using a blocking setup at the top. 8mm nylon cord is probably the smallest I'd use an an abseil line on its own.

[maddog]

4mm probably is a bit thin, unnervingly so, but I would have thought abseiling was a somewhat different activity to a little scrambling with the assistance of a length of rope.

To guide yourself down a wet and slippery rock, a bit of rope is useful as a backup. If I have doubts I sometimes take a $10 rope of unknown breaking strain that I got from the local hardware (20m, about 5-6mm in diameter I think). I suspect that accessory cord rated at 330kg, would be stronger though, and if in reasonable condition, quite sufficient for the purpose.

The next step up a 6mm Prusik cord @ approx 750 kgs breaking strain, would be more than adequate for the purpose

I certainly would not carry a heavy and bulky climbing rope, harness or webbing, etc, on the off chance I might decide on a spontaneous abseil off a cliff face.

Cheers

[ULWalkingPhil]

This kind of thing?

http://www.fireandrescueaustralia.com/i ... b2f9bc3ed8

Less expensive, but still strong enough would be something like this:

http://www.rescuetech1.com/4mmaccessorycords-2.aspx

Though light, 4mm might be unnervingly thin on a longer drop.

Cheers

yeh, it looked like that red one in the first link, not sure on colour. The rope he had was very light. I could probably find out what it was, when i return home, but that a couple weeks away.

[cookie-monster]

i just wrote a lengthy reply but cant seem to find it now.... no idea what happened.. but anyway if this ends up being a double reply ill edit it out.

to what was said about rope- i like the idea and extra safety it provides BUT me being inexperienced with it i see it as ill get myself into more trouble at this point that without it. i need to learn what rope/knot tying skills/how to use it in the setting etc etc plus need to gain more experience hiking in general before i consider it. if i am somewhere i need to use rope to descend at this point, ive gone too far past my experience/ability level.

in saying that, is rope used mainly one offs>? ie tie a knot then descend down.. then how do you retrieve it or is it left there? sorry, naive, but something i havent experienced.

i went out and bought the Hema Lamington NP map today. I got retrenched yesterday so i will be studying full time now... so im looking at doing 1-2 hikes per week usually on my own. ones on weekend with my partner or mate.
which leads me to yet another question ( i hope all my questions are ok on the one thread?)
whats popular opinion on the gps vs maps debate? or do most use both?
coming from a 4x4 background vms/hema gps have taken over traditional paper maps completely. there are also iphone/ipad apps like mud maps/hema but to a lesser extent than dedicated devices. to me, it seems the best of both worlds having a small hand held topo gps along with a traditional map.
so, on that note, is there a site which reviews hand held topo gps? id like one that has extensive sth east qld maps already without additional purchases, long battery life, light and most of all easy to use.
i guess 85% of the time i will be on my own so having that gps/map is just added security even if its a pretty standard hike.

[cams]

4mm probably is a bit thin, unnervingly so, but I would have thought abseiling was a somewhat different activity to a little scrambling with the assistance of a length of rope.

To guide yourself down a wet and slippery rock, a bit of rope is useful as a backup. If I have doubts I sometimes take a $10 rope of unknown breaking strain that I got from the local hardware (20m, about 5-6mm in diameter I think). I suspect that accessory cord rated at 330kg, would be stronger though, and if in reasonable condition, quite sufficient for the purpose.

The next step up a 6mm Prusik cord @ approx 750 kgs breaking strain, would be more than adequate for the purpose

I certainly would not carry a heavy and bulky climbing rope, harness or webbing, etc, on the off chance I might decide on a spontaneous abseil off a cliff face.

Cheers

Ok yeah, I thought you were talking about abseiling.

i just wrote a lengthy reply but cant seem to find it now.... no idea what happened.. but anyway if this ends up being a double reply ill edit it out.

to what was said about rope- i like the idea and extra safety it provides BUT me being inexperienced with it i see it as ill get myself into more trouble at this point that without it. i need to learn what rope/knot tying skills/how to use it in the setting etc etc plus need to gain more experience hiking in general before i consider it. if i am somewhere i need to use rope to descend at this point, ive gone too far past my experience/ability level.

Yep, I agree.

in saying that, is rope used mainly one offs>? ie tie a knot then descend down.. then how do you retrieve it or is it left there? sorry, naive, but something i havent experienced.

You need twice the length of rope you need so you can double it up and pull one end to retrieve it from the bottom.

i went out and bought the Hema Lamington NP map today. I got retrenched yesterday so i will be studying full time now... so im looking at doing 1-2 hikes per week usually on my own. ones on weekend with my partner or mate.
which leads me to yet another question ( i hope all my questions are ok on the one thread?)
whats popular opinion on the gps vs maps debate? or do most use both?
coming from a 4x4 background vms/hema gps have taken over traditional paper maps completely. there are also iphone/ipad apps like mud maps/hema but to a lesser extent than dedicated devices. to me, it seems the best of both worlds having a small hand held topo gps along with a traditional map.
so, on that note, is there a site which reviews hand held topo gps? id like one that has extensive sth east qld maps already without additional purchases, long battery life, light and most of all easy to use.
i guess 85% of the time i will be on my own so having that gps/map is just added security even if its a pretty standard hike.

There's threads on here with big discussions on this topic. These days I take a GPS (I use an Oregon 450) and a photocopy or print out of the relevant sections of the paper map I'll need.

[cookie-monster]

thanks
ill look up the Oregon 450 now

[maddog]

to what was said about rope- i like the idea and extra safety it provides BUT me being inexperienced with it i see it as ill get myself into more trouble at this point that without it. i need to learn what rope/knot tying skills/how to use it in the setting etc etc plus need to gain more experience hiking in general before i consider it. if i am somewhere i need to use rope to descend at this point, ive gone too far past my experience/ability level.

A short length of rope can be a very useful thing to carry (e.g. Mt Maroon if it gets wet on your decent, or if you have a companion who starts to get nervous). As above, you will not need to know any knots to use a rope doubled over.

However useful knots are the bowline, figure 8 and double-fishermans. If you know these, you should be able to get by (get a short piece of rope to practice knots).

The bowline is one of the most useful because it is always be easy to undo, so is a good one to start with. It is illustrated below: make a loop then remember that the rabbit comes up through the hole, under and around the tree, and back through the hole again.

[cookie-monster]

what is the process called of doubling the rope to descend that you both mentioned? would just like to youtube it see
also would like to see these 3 knots shown on youtube, sit there and practice for awhile. i do agree having it in my backpack ( and knowing how to use it) would be an extra safety feature i should learn

[Pteropus]

....whats popular opinion on the gps vs maps debate? or do most use both?
coming from a 4x4 background vms/hema gps have taken over traditional paper maps completely. there are also iphone/ipad apps like mud maps/hema but to a lesser extent than dedicated devices. to me, it seems the best of both worlds having a small hand held topo gps along with a traditional map.
so, on that note, is there a site which reviews hand held topo gps? id like one that has extensive sth east qld maps already without additional purchases, long battery life, light and most of all easy to use.
i guess 85% of the time i will be on my own so having that gps/map is just added security even if its a pretty standard hike.

There is plenty on this site re maps v gps. I take both and also have the Garmin Oregon 450 mentioned by cams. Remember though, maps do not require/run out of battery power. I think they are better for a quick check of location than a gps in my opinion. Use gps and maps together is probably the best combo. One can get too reliant on gps and vital skills can decline...
e.g.

But nav skills take practice, and for me its a 'use it or lose it' kind of skill. For example, I am good at reading a map, but definitely need to brush up on my map and compass work, since I now have a GPS and have gotten lazy with my nav skills over the past few years.

[ULWalkingPhil]

I mostly use maps, its rare i ever go to my GPS, i don't trust there reliability, i had a twonav sportiva GPS failed on me recently, I cant imagine what would have happened if i had relied solely on the GPS. Garmin is a lot more reliable, i own a Garmin Oregon 300, its never missed a beat.

[maddog]

what is the process called of doubling the rope to descend that you both mentioned? would just like to youtube it see
also would like to see these 3 knots shown on youtube, sit there and practice for awhile. i do agree having it in my backpack ( and knowing how to use it) would be an extra safety feature i should learn

If you use nothing other than a rope, doubling the rope over would be no more complex than in the following example.

Get a pencil and a piece of string and put 1/2 the length of string on one side of the pencil and the other 1/2 on the other side of the pencil to form a U shape with the string around the pencil and two tails of equal length. Then grab both tails together with one hand, at any point along their length, while holding the pencil with the other - and pull. The string is trapped against the pencil and will take weight, so long as you hold the two tails. If you release one of the two tails of string it will not support weight, but can be pulled around the pencil.

Replace the string with rope, and the pencil with a tree trunk - and the same applies. Just remember that you must have a firm grip on both the tails, with no slack to support weight. To retrieve the rope release one tail and pull on the other.

Cheers

[nq111]

7mm perlon by 7m tied at each end as a loop (cordelettes). They are used by many climbers for quick set up belays and are plenty strong enough for abseiling.

Cary two and you can get out of most unexpected troubles on a scambly route. If need be you can untie them and get 7m abseil (or 14m if desperate one-off)).

Much lighter than a rope.

[phan_TOM]

what is the process called of doubling the rope to descend that you both mentioned? would just like to youtube it see
also would like to see these 3 knots shown on youtube, sit there and practice for awhile. i do agree having it in my backpack ( and knowing how to use it) would be an extra safety feature i should learn

I think you mean the 'classic abseil' but if you've never done any vertical activity before I would suggest that you go and join a club or hang out with some people who have instead of trying to learn off youtube... plus a lightweight harness, a $20 descending device and a $20 caribiner will provide you with a much better way to go about it

classic abseil.jpg (58.39 KiB) Viewed 25326 times

A short length of rope can be a very useful thing to carry (e.g. Mt Maroon if it gets wet on your decent, or if you have a companion who starts to get nervous). As above, you will not need to know any knots to use a rope doubled over.
However useful knots are the bowline, figure 8 and double-fishermans. If you know these, you should be able to get by (get a short piece of rope to practice knots).
The bowline is one of the most useful because it is always be easy to undo, so is a good one to start with

The bowline is a great knot & useful in many situations but it's rarely if ever used in climbing or abseiling. You would never (should?) use it to tie yourself on the end of a rope or to attach to an anchor point. Yes, the bowline can easily be undone when not under load, a handy trait in many situations, but not when you're life depends on it e.g. hanging over a drop, even a small fall can prove nasty.

Abseiling is a fairly dangerous activity unless you have the specific knowledge, skills and equipment to do it and I think off-handed advice given by those with questionable experience themselves to people who obviously have little to none of these isn't particularly responsible. I would say join a club or find some people who like to do it and learn that way.

[maddog]

A short length of rope can be a very useful thing to carry (e.g. Mt Maroon if it gets wet on your decent, or if you have a companion who starts to get nervous). As above, you will not need to know any knots to use a rope doubled over.

However useful knots are the bowline, figure 8 and double-fishermans. If you know these, you should be able to get by (get a short piece of rope to practice knots).

The bowline is one of the most useful because it is always be easy to undo, so is a good one to start with

the bowline is a great knot & useful in many situations but it's rarely if ever used in climbing or abseiling. You would never (should?) use it to tie yourself on the end of a rope or to attach to an anchor point. Yes, the bowline can easily be undone when not under load, a handy trait in many situations, but not when you're life depends on it e.g. hanging over a drop, even a small fall can prove nasty.

The bowline is a very useful knot, but never use it for personal support. Really?

In tree climbing it is commonly used, as an alternative to a figure 8, in conjunction with a figure 8 tie off (of a generous tail) then attached to a harnesses via a carabiner. Of course if you use a figure 8 rather than a bowline as a bulky alternative, is it not common practice to tie it off too?

abseiling is a fairly dangerous activity unless you have the specific knowledge, skills and equipment to do it and I think off-handed advice given by those with questionable experience themselves to people who obviously have little to none of these isn't particularly responsible.

LOL. Referring to anyone in particular?

An interesting distinction between recreational abseilers and tree climbers is that the former tends to be a hobby practiced on weekends, whereas tree climbers in industrial situations tend to engage in climbing activities 5-6 days a week, 8 to 10 hrs a day, for years on end. The job is cutting down trees, or cutting down large sections of trees, with chainsaws. Often rigging is required, and on the odd occasion cranes or excavators.

The various rope climbing systems are quite similar are they not?

But I digress, as I understood the conversation we were talking about the utility of having a bit of rope to lower yourself down a slippery rock, not abseiling over cliffs or rock climbing, etc. Using a short length of rope in such a situation to reduce the risk of fall, is surely going to increase personal safety for virtually anyone.

Cheers

[Pteropus]

In tree climbing it is commonly used, as an alternative to a figure 8, in conjunction with a figure 8 tie off (of a generous tail) then attached to a harnesses via a carabiner. Of course if you use a figure 8 rather than a bowline as a bulky alternative, is it not common practice to tie it off too?

.....The various rope climbing systems are quite similar are they not?

Tree climbing techniques are different from abseiling and rock climbing. Many years ago I have done a little tree climbing, using a single rope technique, for example, where a Blake's hitch is used for moving up and down the rope. One major difference is, tree climbers are almost always anchored to the tree via a lanyard system, which allows the single rope to be used to gain height in the tree. I recall we used bowlines and figure 8s but once again these are use it or lose it skills that I cannot remember exactly and would need my memory refreshed. If I recall correctly, the figure 8 is the end of the tail and the last resort to stop one from falling if the rope slips through the Blake's hitch. But my point is, I would not consider tree climbing the same, or similar to abseiling. But I concede they both use ropes, harnesses, carabineers and knots!

Note to self: I must update my knot skills...

[maddog]

Tree climbing techniques are different from abseiling and rock climbing...If I recall correctly, the figure 8 is the end of the tail.. my point is, I would not consider tree climbing the same, or similar to abseiling. But I concede they both use ropes, harnesses, carabineers and knots!

Yes, the figure 8 can be used to tie off a knot at the tail, or as a knot with which to allow attachment to a harness via a carabiner. An example of the latter appears below

f8.jpg (8.85 KiB) Viewed 25299 times

Typically a tree climber will climb a tree with climbing spikes and 2 belts (if they do not free climb), or they will shoot a rope into the canopy and climb the rope with some sort of ascending device (that is, climbing the rope not the tree). Usually the first task is to find a suitable fork within the tree to use as a high point (usually the higher the better), and then move around the canopy supported by their climbing rope and a prussik* loop attached to their rope - both of which are attached to their harness (though there are number of other techniques that can be used).

When the work is complete, the decent from the tree (of reasonable height) is often controlled by the use of a simple alloy friction device - an alloy figure 8 or similar - to control the speed of decent and to protect the rope from heat generated by friction. This is abseiling. Many tree climbers would abseil on a daily basis.

Tree climbing while often involving abseiling, is however different from rock climbing. Amongst the many differences is that tree climbers will not (or should not) climb above their rope which is static rope, and should always be kept taught. Rock climbers climb the rock not the rope, as I understand it. They can climb above their rope, because they use dynamic rope - which is used to allow a fall. A similar fall for a tree climber will crush their hips.

Scrambling down a few wet rocks with a short piece of rope different from abseiling, tree climbing, and rock climbing. It involves throwing a rope (doubled over) around a solid object, and using the rope to provide a measure of support if they slip. For such a use I highly recommend a short length of rope to the Cookie-Monster.

*The prussik loop is a thinner piece of rope where both tails are tied using a double fisherman's knot - this knot gets tighter the harder you pull, but unlike the bowline can be very hard to undo.

Cheers

[ofuros]

If you really want to know more......climbing gyms are located in West End, Shailer Park (not to far from Hyperdome) and The Valley, ....
..and lastly Browns Plains.

http://www.urbanclimb.com.au/
http://www.rocksports.com.au/
http://www.thespot.net.au/social-enterp ... mbing-gym/

[cams]

Bowline is perfectly acceptable as a rock climbing tie in knot. Usually a double bowline to reinforce the weakest part of the knot and often a follow through is used to get the tail back out of the loop end (but not necessary). Whether its a figure of 8 or a bowline a double fisherman's bend is used to back it up. Much easier to untie if you've been doing a lot of falling or hanging than a figure of 8, but not as quick to verify if done correctly.

Discussion is probably getting a bit off course though. I've never used a rope for bushwalking.

[Pteropus]

...Tree climbing while often involving abseiling, is however different from rock climbing. Amongst the many differences is that tree climbers will not (or should not) climb above their rope which is static rope, and should always be kept taught. Rock climbers climb the rock not the rope, as I understand it. They can climb above their rope, because they use dynamic rope - which is used to allow a fall. A similar fall for a tree climber will crush their hips.

yes, this is true.

...Discussion is probably getting a bit off course though. I've never used a rope for bushwalking.

Yes, true, the discussion is off course.

I have found a rope useful on some occasions though. For example, there is a small cliff on the Stinson walk that we used a rope, and in Black Canyon, in the manner that maddog suggests here:

Scrambling down a few wet rocks with a short piece of rope different from abseiling, tree climbing, and rock climbing. It involves throwing a rope (doubled over) around a solid object, and using the rope to provide a measure of support if they slip. For such a use I highly recommend a short length of rope to the Cookie-Monster.

But all in all, I never take a rope with me (a mate normally does) and with the exception of a few examples, so far most rock scrambles have not required one.
Take it easy cookie-monster, no need to take on a serious rock climb yet!

[maddog]

Bowline is perfectly acceptable as a rock climbing tie in knot. Usually a double bowline to reinforce the weakest part of the knot and often a follow through is used to get the tail back out of the loop end (but not necessary). Whether its a figure of 8 or a bowline a double fisherman's bend is used to back it up. Much easier to untie if you've been doing a lot of falling or hanging than a figure of 8, but not as quick to verify if done correctly.

Discussion is probably getting a bit off course though. I've never used a rope for bushwalking.

Agreed Cams, we have been a little self-indulgent. I think all the Cookie-Monster really wanted to know was should he carry a short piece of rope for Mt Maroon and Mt Barney (Peasant's Trail), and a few knots that he might find generally useful. Still, vigorous debate makes a lively forum.

Cookie-Monster, if you are still with us, a short length of rope is also useful for hauling your pack if required (use a bowline for attaching your pack and don't worry about the tail).

Cheers

[cookie-monster]

haha
yeah im still here
just taking all the rope talk in
got a bit off what i was after but was interesting nonetheless

Looking at doing a full day hike next saturday, somewhere in sth east qld with my partner. all we know is we dont want it too easy or too hard. some challenges to make it fun and exciting but not to the extent we need rope to lower ourselves over cliffs with rope.

any ideas?

oh, in regards to the Take a walk book, are their grading accurate? i ask because online generally they are graded easier than the book.

[cookie-monster]

my partner and i decided the Warrie Circuit at Springbrook for friday and the West Canungra creek circuit sat-cant wait!

also- anyone have experience with the England Creek ( left & right branches)? im looking for places to hike mid week on my own, this seems nice and close but again many conflicting reports about it.

[cookie-monster]

another couple quick questions, if anyone is still reading this thread ( its been a great help so far

1. what does the constant reference to GR numbers ie GR7015 in the take a walk.. book refer to? im guessing a GPS point or "grid reference" to a map but couldnt locate any info on it in the book itself.. unless my man vision is working overtime and i have skipped it.
2. being that there is different reports/descriptions of walks from different spots on the net, where is regarded as the most reliable source? i ask as im really getting into this ( bushwalking) but dont really want to travel the few hours each way if the hike is out of my league. some sources say some is dead easy the next says very hard... even say Take a Walk book having glasshouse mountains as hard yet on here its regarded as pretty easy.
I feel pretty comfortable with all the info i have with the Lamington hikes but more worried about all the ones further out such as main range etc. just want to know well and truly what im in for before so im not half way through and realize its way too extreme for me.
3. Last one ( for now) what would you say would be your most satisfying/enjoyable day hike in sth east qld?
ive read the Take a Walk book back to front several times ( i luv it).. but so many are appealing all within a couple hours drive of me.. so knowing what to do next is tough.

[maddog]

1. For an clear explanation of grid references go here:

http://bushwalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Grid_Reference

2. Walk ratings are most often relative to other walks as determined by the author or book. Therefore they are subjective. If you are happy with the Take a Walk series then judge your planned walks on those ratings, starting with the easy or moderate grades.

3. There is a lot to choose from in that part of the world. But the Box Forest Circuit at Green Mountain, and Mt Maroon as previously stated are both satisfying and enjoyable places to spend a day.

[cookie-monster]

^^^ thanks for your quick reply!!!
ill look up that link now

Box Forest circuit i did about 6 weeks ago- LOVED it! was planning doing west canungra circuit last weekend but got a back injury the day before.
Mt Maroon it seems is next then.. ill do my research now on it ( as i know next to nothing about the place)

Thanks again

[cookie-monster]

instead of starting a new thread i thought i would just post here again

my mate and i were reading about lots of different walks in the Take a Walk book and both commented on the amount that require rock scrambling
we both decided we want to do a few walks that require this to get used to it and get better skilled at it

what trails do you guys recommend for us to do to get used to scrambling /rock hopping?

maybe from easiest to hardest if adding a few.

i would like to do a few so i know what im in for when i read it in the book

thanks