Bush radio Communications - Emergencies and others

[GPSGuided]

Various threads have been through this forum where people talked about handheld/mobile radio (HT) for various reasons eg. Reversing a caravan etc. But I have not seen one that specifically discussed the use in emergencies. Whilst we all know the use of PLB and other satellite 1-way or 2-way communicators, they all have their pros and cons. Here, surely traditional handheld radios (CB or Amateur/HAM) can also be valuable in various ways. Whilst there'll be some who are willing to haul their HF/large batteries on walks and camps, I suspect the limit will be with HTs for most. As far as I can see, these can be categorised into 4 applications. Would be useful to combine people's experiences.

1) Information - Many HT radios have wide band receiving capabilities.
- Monitoring of local AM or FM radio stations.
- Not here in Australia, NOAA in the US broadcasts regular weather updates.

2) Within the group - Local communication. CB (UHF) would be more than adequate for these general applications although amateur radios on VHF/UHF may be more capable.
- Used b/n members of a walk group for whatever the occasion.
- Used b/n lead and tail of a walk group.

3) Regional communication - Given HTs are typically VHF/UHF and up to 5W, rough line of sight limited. A small fold up wire antenna can significantly improve the range.
- Possible to communicate with other local CB/Amateur band users/stations, especially at a hill top.
- Possible to communicate with a local CB/Amateur band repeater station, thereby gaining communication with users further afield.
- Maybe interesting for a chat with a local whilst hanging around in camp.

4) Emergency - Urgent/Distress
- For situations where flicking on the PLB and calling a heli-rescue is not warranted.
- Situation where a SAR party is approaching and to gain early voice contact and guidance.
- Does anyone know which radio band/frequency the police/SAR parties would monitor, if any? I further understand that in an emergency, existing radio licensing regulations can be exceeded, meaning that capable radio units may tap into official SAR/police frequencies for urgent assistance, possibly into aviation/marine channels.
- Question here is, is one more likely to tap into a GSM mobile network or a traditional PTT radio network?

Looking locally, I note that,
Blue Mountains NP: There are 3 amateur repeater locations b/n Blaxland and Lawson along the Great Western Hwy and 1 near Kurrajong Heights on the Bells Line of Rd.
RNP: 1 repeater location b/n Sutherland and Engadine and 1 near Maddens Plains towards Wollongong.
Ku-Ring-Gai NP: At least 3 amateur repeaters surrounds the area at Berowra, Asquith and Terry Hills.

Amateur Radio Repeater Map
http://telecnatron.com/vk-repeater-map/index.html

CB Radio Repeater Locations
https://secure.tropinet.com/uhf-repeaters/

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

Interesting topic. Obviously much of it depends on the remoteness of where you're walking. If you're within an established commercial mobile coverage area, there's no real need to carry PTTs for emergency purposes (although the other purposes you mention might be perfectly valid, depending on party size/type etc.). So the below responses assume you're out of coverage...

- Does anyone know which radio band/frequency the police/SAR parties would monitor, if any? I further understand that in an emergency, existing radio licensing regulations can be exceeded, meaning that capable radio units may tap into official SAR/police frequencies for urgent assistance,

I think there are designated "emergency" channels in the CB bands. I don't think breaking in over police frequencies would be a particularly good idea, notwithstanding the practical limitations (eg. if they are running a trunk network).

possibly into aviation/marine channels.

I guess as a last resort, as long as you are talking about the emergency frequencies - eg. the 121.5 MHz standard aero distress freq (the old EPIRB freq before the switch 406 only). Should make it clear that it is not an airborne emergency though.

- Question here is, is one more likely to tap into a GSM mobile network or a traditional PTT radio network?

Not sure what you mean here... hitting a GSM freq with a PTT radio? To be able to "hear" you there'd need to be GSM towers within range, so you'd be within coverage anyway (so might as well just make a call with your mobile. Ignoring that for a minute, we're talking about completely different bandwidths and modulation types, so the transmission would not be compatible with the receiver anyway, and there'd also be the matter of simply getting a radio that tunes to those freqs. In any case I'm not sure why you'd want to be "tapping into" any cellular network for emergency purposes if you have commercial mobile coverage anyway (which by implication you would)? You can make an emergency call on any cellular network regardless of whether or not you are a subscriber to that network.

Re-reading I might've missed the point of the question ... I guess the short answer is: Access a cellular network if you have a cell phone and coverage; or access a PTT network if you don't have cellular coverage but have a PTT phone and network access (or through talk-around if there are other local users that can relay a message).

Again I can see applications for some parties to carry PTT radios for comms between them (particularly for large or widely dispersed/split up parties), but for emergency purposes I reckon they're just extra weight - use mobile phone if in coverage and PLB if not (just my opinion tho )

[GPSGuided]

I think there are designated "emergency" channels in the CB bands. I don't think breaking in over police frequencies would be a particularly good idea, notwithstanding the practical limitations (eg. if they are running a trunk network).

Yes, Ch 5 and 35 are designated emergency repeater channels for CBs. When I say reaching beyond licensed frequencies, I meant for true emergencies. Not just a skin scrap or similar. Yes, 121.5MHz is a good one to know.
http://www.uhfcb.com.au/80-Channel-UHF-Information.php

Not sure what you mean here... hitting a GSM freq with a PTT radio? ...
Re-reading I might've missed the point of the question

Again I can see applications for some parties to carry PTT radios for comms between them (particularly for large or widely dispersed/split up parties), but for emergency purposes I reckon they're just extra weight - use mobile phone if in coverage and PLB if not (just my opinion tho )

Sorry, I wasn't precise earlier on this. Yes, I was referring to accessing the GSM network with one's mobile phone, not (futile) hacking of the channels with a HT. This actually also raised a reminder. AFAIK and at least till the recent past, traditional dumb mobile phones typically have better reception and battery life than fancy smartphones.

[1iron]

Having been a ham for over 30 years I would not consider taking a handheld on a bushwalk here in Tasmania. I reckon that the vast majority of places where you would would get vhf radio reception then you will also get mobile phone reception.

Also you are relying on someone listening to the repeater, whereas with the phone you could take a phone list to give a number of options, plus SMS if the signal is marginal.

I do take a small AM/FM radio so I can hear the weather and news.

[GPSGuided]

Yes, I noticed there really aren't any repeaters out west in Tasmania. But on this topic, we should think nationally.

[walkerchris77]

I used ch 5 on the ufh once to catch people robbing a house (no phone reception) and once to get me out of a bog in the bush.

[GPSGuided]

I used ch 5 on the ufh once to catch people robbing a house (no phone reception) and once to get me out of a bog in the bush.

It really works! So, tell us the story and how did it work out? Who monitored and made the response? What kind of range? I understand WICEN is a voluntary group that maintains and monitor emergency channel traffic. Pretty low key.

[walk2wineries]

Am I going off off track here...
A sat phone weighs a bit more than the PLB but I occasionally take both. NB in Tasmania - find out the direct/local phone numbers of services, otherwise calling national 13- numbers for police, ambos, RAA etc puts you through to Sydney and it takes a while to convince them you are in Tas..... and not only will they not have each other's non-13 numbers, they may not know their own. Really. And many phones won't capture your number; my brain ran out of storage a while back, so make sure the sat phone number is easy to see and read.

[GPSGuided]

Am I going off off track here...
A sat phone weighs a bit more than the PLB but I occasionally take both. NB in Tasmania - find out the direct/local phone numbers of services, otherwise calling national 13- numbers for police, ambos, RAA etc puts you through to Sydney and it takes a while to convince them you are in Tas..... and not only will they not have each other's non-13 numbers, they may not know their own. Really. And many phones won't capture your number; my brain ran out of storage a while back, so make sure the sat phone number is easy to see and read.

I think you just brought up what has partly killed the radio market and the radio enthusiasts scene. Then there's the mobile phone and Internet. If both the bushwalking and amateur radio clubs are greying, amateur radio still has bushwalking beat by a significant margin. Whilst there are still some cost issues with Sat phones, the differential is no longer insurmountable for those with a real need. For me, I think carrying a PTT radio on recreational walks is mostly hobby and convenience (staying in contact with friends within the group), then a significantly lesser extent for safety.

PS. Oh, I forgot, many on BW.com forum are hardcore solo walkers. No face nor voice to be shown...

[walkerchris77]

I used ch 5 on the ufh once to catch people robbing a house (no phone reception) and once to get me out of a bog in the bush.

It really works! So, tell us the story and how did it work out? Who monitored and made the response? What kind of range? I understand WICEN is a voluntary group that maintains and monitor emergency channel traffic. Pretty low key.

I was in nsw and ch 5 was monitored by crest. (Citizens radio emergency services team). I was driving past a house and saw two men with balaclava s on smash a window and go inside. It was 1995 and I didn't have a moblie phone so I used the uhf and the operator contacted the police on my behalf. 5 mins later the police turned up while the robbers were still inside the house. True story.

The next time I got bogged on a dirt track. Called for help and some locals asked me where I was. They turned up and used their winch to pull me out. I offered them my six pack of beer that I had but they said no. People can be so kind. Both cars have uhf radios and I always walk with a gme 5watt radio too. You just never know when they could come in handy

[GPSGuided]

Good stories there Chris! Thanks for sharing. Given your experience, how do you feel of radio's value in the 2014 mobile and satellite age?

[walkerchris77]

Great for back up and handy to switch on and scan 80 channels, and if you can hit a repeater then even better range. The wife knows if all my other gadgets failed and something was wrong that ill put a call on channel 5 every hour and I think emergency services would monitor it as well. I use a 5 watt radio they are about $250 each so no kmart walkie talkie here.
And if I go walking with a friend I give them one too in case we get separated or something happens.

Never used a sat phone but im sure they are good and if I was going somewhere extremely remote id hire one. I do carry a small phone thats just a phone (smart phone s battery life to short). My little phone last a week on standby.

As for cb, maybe theres better coms out there but theres lots of people who use them still. Great for help on the road to thanks to the truckies.

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

This actually also raised a reminder. AFAIK and at least till the recent past, traditional dumb mobile phones typically have better reception and battery life than fancy smartphones.

Yeh was certainly the case (regarding coverage) up until recently (on 2 and 3G networks). Early smart phones (especially those with a picture of a piece of fruit on the cover) were seemingly designed with a "computer first, radio second" mentality, whereby optimal placement of radio components and transmission lines within the device seemed to take a back seat to fitting as much on the board as possible. I think that's changed quite a lot given that smart phones have become ubiquitous and the market is very competitive, particularly with the advent of 4G. Multi-banding (phones can support up to 7 2/3/4G bands these days) does mean there are tradeoffs with radio performance (and by extension coverage), but by and large smart phones are much better these days.

Battery life on the other hand is always going to be an issue given the obvious difference in the number of processes being run on the device (and just running the wide screen), although that has been gradually improving as well (in both improvement of batteries and efficiencies in the mobile networks... for example 4G is spec'd in a way that minimizes the battery drain on the phone when transmitting data to the tower). Turning data off and killing all non-"phone" processes helps, but will never be as good as a dumb phone for battery life.

[walkerchris77]

I think we need a thread called "best forum name".
You win my vote walk fatboy walk.

Classic, hehe he

[GPSGuided]

...4G is spec'd in a way that minimizes the battery drain on the phone when transmitting data to the tower). Turning data off and killing all non-"phone" processes helps, but will never be as good as a dumb phone for battery life.

Yes, there certainly has been significant improvements from iPhone 3 to the present 5S on the radio and battery front, but I am not sure the introduction of 4G has much relevance for our bushwalk application. At present, 4G is largely limited to metropolitan areas and out there, we may still depend on 3G or even GPRS/EDGE. Will 4G full extend to the full coverage map? Anyone know?

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

...4G is spec'd in a way that minimizes the battery drain on the phone when transmitting data to the tower). Turning data off and killing all non-"phone" processes helps, but will never be as good as a dumb phone for battery life.

Yes, there certainly has been significant improvements from iPhone 3 to the present 5S on the radio and battery front, but I am not sure the introduction of 4G has much relevance for our bushwalk application.

Yes sorry was coming from a pure "radio performance" perspective, rather than current actual network coverage

At present, 4G is largely limited to metropolitan areas and out there, we may still depend on 3G or even GPRS/EDGE. Will 4G full extend to the full coverage map? Anyone know?

700 MHz 4G networks will start deploying next year. It is expected that over time these networks (particularly Telstra's) will eventually provide wide-area coverage... will likely start in metro areas and expand from there.

I think we need a thread called "best forum name".
You win my vote walk fatboy walk.

Classic, hehe he

Haha yeh stole it from this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425413/

[GPSGuided]

700 MHz 4G networks will start deploying next year. It is expected that over time these networks (particularly Telstra's) will eventually provide wide-area coverage... will likely start in metro areas and expand from there.

Oh, just wonderful! Another round of expensive HW upgrade needed. Will it be supported by iPhone6 or 6S? Time will tell.

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

Will it be supported by iPhone6 or 6S? Time will tell.

700MHz is an internationally standardized 4G band, so the short answer is likely to be "yes", if you are a Telstra or Optus customer (VHA didn't buy any 700 MHz spectrum), and depending on the release date of those particularly models. Telstra and Optus networks will also include the 2.5GHz band from next year on, so new phones might also have those chipsets in them, but that band won't provide the same level of regional coverage (likely confined to metro areas),

[Strider]

700 MHz 4G networks will start deploying next year. It is expected that over time these networks (particularly Telstra's) will eventually provide wide-area coverage... will likely start in metro areas and expand from there.

Oh, just wonderful! Another round of expensive HW upgrade needed. Will it be supported by iPhone6 or 6S? Time will tell.

Iphones usually take several generations to catch up with the rest of the mobile phone world. My guess would be no.

[hamishm]

700 MHz 4G networks will start deploying next year. It is expected that over time these networks (particularly Telstra's) will eventually provide wide-area coverage... will likely start in metro areas and expand from there.

Oh, just wonderful! Another round of expensive HW upgrade needed. Will it be supported by iPhone6 or 6S? Time will tell.

BTW, nobody in Australia is doing voice on 4G anyway yet. If you make a call your phone will switch back to 3G/2G automatically.

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/09/austr ... d-updated/
http://www.zdnet.com/au/telstra-tests-v ... 000023464/

[GPSGuided]

Iphones usually take several generations to catch up with the rest of the mobile phone world. My guess would be no.

I wouldn't say several generations ie. Several years. It's true that Apple tend not to release products that does not have an existing infrastructure, but it's usually updated by the next round if the infrastructure is well implemented in the meantime. On the 700MHz support, I suspect it'll also depend on what iPhone's other markets have done. We are only a tiny market in the scheme of things.

[Strider]

I would. Look how small their screens are.

[GPSGuided]

I would. Look how small their screens are.

That's not a technology standards issue but a product design philosophy. The current size is more about carriage and mobility than marketing for the presbyopic crowd (me included).

[GPSGuided]

Came across this SOTA (Summits On The Air) activity amongst amateur radio participants, one that obviously relates to bushwlking and related outdoor activities. Quite interesting, a coordinated activity that runs worldwide with participants accumulating points for "activating" hills/mountains peaks, make contacts on hill/mountain tops that satisfy defined criteria for a "summit". Non-operators can also participate with a receive only SW radio. Points are gained by listening to established SOTA communications.

http://www.sota.org.uk/

Currently recognised peaks are plotted on a worldwide map.
http://sotamaps.wsstvc.org

[GPSGuided]

Update: Came across this thread and discussion on SOTA and it would appear that Tasmania doesn't even have one single peak on the surveyed list. A bit shocking for the number of wonders there. What's happening? Time to share some skills.

http://www.vklogger.com/forum/viewtopic ... 11&t=11044

[Zone-5]

I bought two of these but they needed a HAM lic to operate. So I got a ACMA foundation lic to cover it and they work just fine!




Afterwards I got this 12v IC-7000 to cater for the remote location and mobile HF/VHF/UHF comms...



Lol, last night I spoke to a guy in Florida (WB2REM "Jim") on 40m, he was 5/3! Not bad for a 9m length of solenoid wire @ 16,300 kms!

[icefest]

Welcome back Zone-5!

Where do you plan on using them, and whats the range?

[Zone-5]

I'm a Simpson desert dweller and I wanted something bullet proof for remote HF and private UHF comms between two persons.

The Moto's have a range of about 15 kms on the flat and about 3kms in heavy terrain, their audio is very clear.

A friend showed me a Garmin Rhino GPS loaded walkie talkie but I went for something that didn't need any firmware updates ever and used a HAM frequency that no one really uses any more.

These Moto's don't sell in Australia but the frequency is available to lic'ed HAM users, hence no party line!

Spec sheet below...

http://www.motorolasolutions.com/web/Bu ... cSheet.pdf



-------------------------------------------

The IC-7000 is now out of production but I got one of the last ones from Ross at Stricly Ham in Melb with and AH-4 Icom auto tuner for about $1500 delivered. I should have bought two!

[GPSGuided]

Interesting application of a European consumer banded radio here. I note it only Tx at 500mW. Was that not a consideration when there are plenty of HTs with up to 5W Tx power?

Good to hear that you made QSO with someone in FL! Something an inner city dweller can only dream about. IC7000 is a very nice unit and almost picked it. Ended up with a KX3 and still trying to get my antenna worked out so that I can do some hill top or SOTA operations. May even catch you on the air...

[Strider]

Not an HF, but Tx from the base model ICOM IC400-PRO can easily be increased up to 25W, so presumably this one can be upped a bit too?