Forum rules
The place for bushwalking topics that are not location specific.Re: High altitude adaptation for a walk
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 2:19 pm
You assumed right, I am no pilgrim, but won't reject any good will Lord Shiva might send my way. 
Interesting on the caloric consumption and weight loss at altitude. But I assume you've lost all that through an extended expedition, not some semi-tourist activities. Still, can appreciate the impact on calorie requirements. On SAR, I read a news report of a SAR on the Kailash Kora from a few days ago. The report indicated that the local SAR group was essentially made up by the Chinese border police and military police garrison personnels, along with some local volunteers. The actually rescue was carried out by foot with manual stretcher. There's no mention of helicopters being available for the task. I assume PLBs would still work in the region.
Interesting on the caloric consumption and weight loss at altitude. But I assume you've lost all that through an extended expedition, not some semi-tourist activities. Still, can appreciate the impact on calorie requirements. On SAR, I read a news report of a SAR on the Kailash Kora from a few days ago. The report indicated that the local SAR group was essentially made up by the Chinese border police and military police garrison personnels, along with some local volunteers. The actually rescue was carried out by foot with manual stretcher. There's no mention of helicopters being available for the task. I assume PLBs would still work in the region.
Re: High altitude adaptation for a walk
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 2:58 pm
PLBs should work there but the problem is who is coming to get you? I wouldn't bother with one. I have had GPS & Spot devices work fine in China. The Spot is useful for those at home watching your route in real time. Go with a reputable group, take the precautions and you'll be fine in regards to assistance in the event of an emergency.
Funnily enough I was made take out insurance for included helicopter evacuation in China a few years back, even though helicopters were not allowed...
The digestive bits in you tend to stop working properly around at 5,500m, the body essentially starts to deteriorate and begins to consume itself. Hence not many, if any, people live that high on a permanent basis. Base Camps are never higher than 5,500m. Again, everyone is different, but the height, coupled with different foods usually has an effect regardless of the activity. I've seen people drop heaps of weight just doing a simple three week trek at height.
Maybe you could prostrate the whole route and do 108 laps of it (for memory). Shiva seems to appreciate that.
Funnily enough I was made take out insurance for included helicopter evacuation in China a few years back, even though helicopters were not allowed...
The digestive bits in you tend to stop working properly around at 5,500m, the body essentially starts to deteriorate and begins to consume itself. Hence not many, if any, people live that high on a permanent basis. Base Camps are never higher than 5,500m. Again, everyone is different, but the height, coupled with different foods usually has an effect regardless of the activity. I've seen people drop heaps of weight just doing a simple three week trek at height.
Maybe you could prostrate the whole route and do 108 laps of it (for memory). Shiva seems to appreciate that.
Re: High altitude adaptation for a walk
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 3:50 pm
horsecat wrote:Maybe you could prostrate the whole route and do 108 laps of it (for memory). Shiva seems to appreciate that.
Reading further, I understand that those Tibetan pilgrims who prostrate along the route would take around 2 weeks to complete. No ideas how they handle the nights. No large tent containing packs so might be "bivy" users. Then there are young Tibetans who leave Darchen at 10am and is back by 6pm, a night rest and they are off on the loop again the next day. Yes, 100 odd laps would clear one's sins for eternity while one lap can clear the sins for one lifetime and avoid being sent to hell. One elderly Tibetan monk on the Kora route supposedly have done 70 laps and is a well respected master.
Re: High altitude adaptation for a walk
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 5:10 pm
Just got home and had a look at my library of mountain books. "Circling the Sacred Mountain" by Robert Thurman and Tad Wise might also be worth a look to get a bit of an idea about the trek
Re: High altitude adaptation for a walk
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 5:41 pm
Had a read of a few reader reviews of the book on Amazing, quite amusing about the author.
Re: High altitude adaptation for a walk
Mon 16 Jun, 2014 6:01 pm
Yeah, it gets a bit spiritual. But I'm a sucker for mountain books so it made its way into the collection, plus there's not a lot of publications around about that part of Tibet
Re: High altitude adaptation for a walk
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 10:00 pm
I would echo the "sleep low, climb high" advice - this has been a standard practice for Nepalese/Himalayan tour groups for many years, although when I was there almost 15 years ago I think the common standard was to ascend no more than 400 metres per day "bed to bed" - though you could ascend higher during the day.
As has been discussed previously in the forums, the consensus is that altitude effects do not occur until over around 2500m, so there is not much you can do in Australia to help acclimatise. Prior to the Atlanta Olympics, altitude training was fashionable for endurance athletes, and you could actually hire and stay in "altitude trailers" where nitrogen levels were increased to create a low oxygen atmosphere. They quickly lost favour as physiologists realised the pros did not outweigh the cons. It's very hard to do something like this outside of a scientific environment, because you don't want to get those oxygen concentrations wrong!
Bear in mind also that one of the fundamental adaptations is increased hematocrit, ie increased numbers of red blood cells per unit of blood volume, so you should be including sufficient iron in your diet - if you have any history of anemia, you may want to seek medical advice.
I'd also add that the most severe symptoms of cerebral edema can include irrational thoughts/poor judgement, loss of vision and loss of consciousness, so it is wise to be in a group of trusted people so that assistance is always at hand. You should also know that by far the best treatment for altitude sickness is immediate removal to lower altitudes, so you should constantly have in mind an "exit plan" for both yourself and others.
As already suggested, trekkers in this part of the world are often struck down by other illnesses, particularly ear nose throat and lung infections (bronchitis), as well as gastrointestinal problems like giardia. Be scrupulous about hygiene, both your own and others', and don't let your guard down for an instant - eg insist on peeling your own fruit, don't allow ice in your drinks etc.
Having said all that, many people trek in this part of the world without mishap, and I trust that if you do all the research and make sound decisions, you'll have an amazing time. Good luck and enjoy,
Skibug.
As has been discussed previously in the forums, the consensus is that altitude effects do not occur until over around 2500m, so there is not much you can do in Australia to help acclimatise. Prior to the Atlanta Olympics, altitude training was fashionable for endurance athletes, and you could actually hire and stay in "altitude trailers" where nitrogen levels were increased to create a low oxygen atmosphere. They quickly lost favour as physiologists realised the pros did not outweigh the cons. It's very hard to do something like this outside of a scientific environment, because you don't want to get those oxygen concentrations wrong!
Bear in mind also that one of the fundamental adaptations is increased hematocrit, ie increased numbers of red blood cells per unit of blood volume, so you should be including sufficient iron in your diet - if you have any history of anemia, you may want to seek medical advice.
I'd also add that the most severe symptoms of cerebral edema can include irrational thoughts/poor judgement, loss of vision and loss of consciousness, so it is wise to be in a group of trusted people so that assistance is always at hand. You should also know that by far the best treatment for altitude sickness is immediate removal to lower altitudes, so you should constantly have in mind an "exit plan" for both yourself and others.
As already suggested, trekkers in this part of the world are often struck down by other illnesses, particularly ear nose throat and lung infections (bronchitis), as well as gastrointestinal problems like giardia. Be scrupulous about hygiene, both your own and others', and don't let your guard down for an instant - eg insist on peeling your own fruit, don't allow ice in your drinks etc.
Having said all that, many people trek in this part of the world without mishap, and I trust that if you do all the research and make sound decisions, you'll have an amazing time. Good luck and enjoy,
Skibug.
Re: High altitude adaptation for a walk
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 10:17 pm
I think we had a similar debate here earlier on these forums regarding genetic adaptation to altitude.
IIRC there was a genetic tendency to have a decreased increase in haematocrit in sherpas as opposed to lowlanders when acclimatised.
Hardly relevant to the topic at hand but it really surprised me at the time.
I'm just about to head off on holidays, but shoot me a PM if you want me to try to find the related journal article.
IIRC there was a genetic tendency to have a decreased increase in haematocrit in sherpas as opposed to lowlanders when acclimatised.
Hardly relevant to the topic at hand but it really surprised me at the time.
I'm just about to head off on holidays, but shoot me a PM if you want me to try to find the related journal article.
Re: High altitude adaptation for a walk
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 11:09 pm
Thanks Skibug! There's certainly a lot to consider, learn and worry about.
Talking about adaptation. I wondered how EPO would affect one's acclimatisation i.e. Pharmacologically raise the haematocrit? I certainly won't go that far to get an "edge" but just curious if it works? Reading around, I am not getting a clear understanding of what actually happens during acclimatisation. I presume oxygen affinity, body fluid balance, EPO secretion and increased haematocrit are but some of the alterations involved. Descriptions of increased HR and RR and depth seemed to be a consequence than a root effect.
Icefest: Not urgent on this matter as I can see how it'll be at least 1-2 years in the planning. Medline is just a click away should I really need it. Have a great holiday!
Talking about adaptation. I wondered how EPO would affect one's acclimatisation i.e. Pharmacologically raise the haematocrit? I certainly won't go that far to get an "edge" but just curious if it works? Reading around, I am not getting a clear understanding of what actually happens during acclimatisation. I presume oxygen affinity, body fluid balance, EPO secretion and increased haematocrit are but some of the alterations involved. Descriptions of increased HR and RR and depth seemed to be a consequence than a root effect.
Icefest: Not urgent on this matter as I can see how it'll be at least 1-2 years in the planning. Medline is just a click away should I really need it. Have a great holiday!
Re: High altitude adaptation for a walk
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 1:31 am
Directly infusing red blood cells has been tried and it didn't increase VO2max.
So would EPO work to alleviate AMS? These guys are going to try to find out.
So would EPO work to alleviate AMS? These guys are going to try to find out.
© Bushwalk Australia and contributors 2007-2013.