Horses and heritage

[davidmorr]

The issue now is the number of horses. In the original romantic time (1800s), there were about 200 iirc. Cattlemen used to shoot them as a pest which kept the numbers under control. If the horses go onto farmland adjacent to the park, they are still shot.

When the national park was declared, there were a lot of horse people unhappy because they were no longer allowed to ride their horses wherever they liked. So it became a political issue which the conservative side of politics chose to use to their advantage. And the horse people started pushing the romantic brumby idea, hoping to be able to get back into the park. They even said that if they were allowed in the park, they would do a brumby run and clear most of the horses out. (The hidden agenda here was that they would leave enough to justify having to do more each year. There are even stories of throughbreds being released into the park to improve the breed.)

When the numbers got too large to ignore, it was proposed to cull them. This became another political point. A limit of 200 horses per year was imposed. The horses were to be trapped and rehomed. This limit remained for many years, despite the fact that the breeding rate was higher than 200 foals per year. A few of the horses were rehomed, but most went to the abattoir. So each horse trapped cost $400 to end up as pet food.

Several surveys of the horse numbers have been done, showing quite large numbers, up to 20,000 at one stage iirc. The opponents reject all this, without offering any counter information on numbers. They cannot even say who they would believe.

This is my recollection. Others may correct any errors.

[Lophophaps]

Watching the Man from Snowy River films it's fun to spot the mountains and places, and I enjoyed both films. The feral horse damage is another matter.

The science clearly shows damage by feral horses, many reports. Feral horse advocates rely on emotion for their views, not science. In that regard they are a few snags short of a barbie. Feral horses look beautiful, especially when at speed in slow motion. The damage they cause is far from beautiful.

Threatening someone may be an offence - each case is different. The death threats cited in Four Corners very much appear to be actionable, but it's necessary to catch the person making the threat then prove it in a court of law. Most of the feral horse advocates are cunning and keep a low profile, while their words are very visible.

[johnw]

Watching the Man from Snowy River films it's fun to spot the mountains and places, and I enjoyed both films. The feral horse damage is another matter.

The science clearly shows damage by feral horses, many reports. Feral horse advocates rely on emotion for their views, not science. In that regard they are a few snags short of a barbie. Feral horses look beautiful, especially when at speed in slow motion. The damage they cause is far from beautiful.

Lop, I think you've summed it up well. I also enjoyed those movies, and still watch them occasionally. And I've had personal encounters where brumbies have stampeded away and do look majestic. BUT, those films were set in another era and many (most?) others who watched/watch them are typically not bushwalkers or similar who have seen the current damage. I think they are likely romanticised by the stories and fall for the pro-horse propaganda. I saw something on morning TV recently referring back to those films and the hosts were unfortunately clueless. Sadly it reflected in their comments, which were sympathetic to the feral horses. I've seen the damage first hand many times now and it worries me that they seem to be getting higher into the ranges. Plenty of evidence around the Rams Heads, and a bit over 12 months ago I found these large droppings between Alice Rawson and Lake Albina. Horse?

[nezumi]

I need to watch the whole of the Four Corners episode, but there's lots I don't get.

For many years, The Man from Snowy River was my favourite movie. Mt Howitt was my favourite place, and it was cool seeing places I loved in a movie. In the 1980s I spent many months in the high country, and it felt special to spot the very occasional mob of brumbies. But am I right in thinking:

- all the scientific evidence shows serious destruction by a feral species
- brumby advocates give absolutely no rational basis for rejecting all the science
?

And isn't it a criminal offence to threaten someone's life, or to incite violence, as some brumby advocates are doing on trackable social media?

Pretty much on all accounts. Very broadly it's a question of science vs emotion - which is hilarious given how many of the feral horse supporting crowd align to the "facts don't care about your feelings" school of politics.

[crollsurf]

Kosciuszko National Park Wild Horse Community Advisory Panel to form.
6-8 person panel. At least 1 conservation person to be included. At least one aboriginal person. Be interesting to see if Richard Swain gets picked. Interesting to see if Cockran gets picked as well.
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/about-us/who-we-are/advisory-committees/kosciuszko-national-park-wild-horse-community-advisory-panel-and-scientific-advisory-panel#:~:text=The%20Minister%20for%20Environment%20has,Wild%20Horse%20Heritage%20Act%202018.

[johnrs]

Does anyone still believe in this process??
Here is a quote from the first entry in this topic way back in 2014.

"There is currently a review of the Wild Horse Management Plan under way. They are seeking input from anyone who has an interest in Kosciusko NP, which I imagine is bushwalkers from all over Australia.
https://engage.environment.nsw.gov.au/protectsnowies"

And the 2014 post refers to a previous enquiry in 2011
John

[Xplora]

Consider submitting to this people https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bu ... 9DTa7Tp2io

Time to show some strength and fight against all the BS put out by the feral idiots.

[crollsurf]

UPDATE: NSW Government plans for aerial culling of feral horses.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/07/brumbies-feral-horses-kosciuszko-national-park-aerial-shooting-plan

I think everyone has lost count by now but there is another request for submissions!
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/animals-and-plants/pest-animals-and-weeds/pest-animals/wild-horses/managing-wild-horses/kosciuszko-national-park-wild-horse-management/amending-the-kosciuszko-national-park-wild-horse-heritage-management-plan

[johnw]

UPDATE: NSW Government plans for aerial culling of feral horses.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/07/brumbies-feral-horses-kosciuszko-national-park-aerial-shooting-plan

I think everyone has lost count by now but there is another request for submissions!
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/animals-and-plants/pest-animals-and-weeds/pest-animals/wild-horses/managing-wild-horses/kosciuszko-national-park-wild-horse-management/amending-the-kosciuszko-national-park-wild-horse-heritage-management-plan

It's been on the TV news this morning. At least new Environment Minister Penny Sharpe is promoting and supporting it, unlike the previous government.
Yes, I can probably just copy and paste from my last submission .

[crollsurf]

Submissions to the Proposed aerial shooting of brumbies in Kosciuszko National Park enquiry have been made available online
https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/committees/inquiries/Pages/inquiry-details.aspx?pk=2991#tab-submissions

[Xplora]

Submissions to the Proposed aerial shooting of brumbies in Kosciuszko National Park enquiry have been made available online
https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/committees/inquiries/Pages/inquiry-details.aspx?pk=2991#tab-submissions

Penny Sharpe consultation re aerial shooting - 11,002 with 82% in favour. Only 5% against and the rest did not mention it.
Emma Hurst senate inquiry - 165 submissions. Results not in but I think most people thought it was a joke and didn't bother submitting. It is a joke and a total waste of time and money. I would like to see Hurst try to turn this around to make a case for stopping aerial shooting. I am sure she will try.

[stry]

Submissions to the Proposed aerial shooting of brumbies in Kosciuszko National Park enquiry have been made available online
https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/committees/inquiries/Pages/inquiry-details.aspx?pk=2991#tab-submissions

Penny Sharpe consultation re aerial shooting - 11,002 with 82% in favour. Only 5% against and the rest did not mention it.
Emma Hurst senate inquiry - 165 submissions. Results not in but I think most people thought it was a joke and didn't bother submitting. It is a joke and a total waste of time and money. I would like to see Hurst try to turn this around to make a case for stopping aerial shooting. I am sure she will try.

That's encouraging, thank you. Closer to home I would really like to them gone from BHP.

When deer are being thinned out by ground operators, it would be so easy during the same operation to shoot any horses encountered at no extra expense.

[Xplora]

That's encouraging, thank you. Closer to home I would really like to them gone from BHP.

When deer are being thinned out by ground operators, it would be so easy during the same operation to shoot any horses encountered at no extra expense.

It is happening already. Numbers on BHP cut by maybe a third already with ground shooting. Aerial shooting has not yet been used on BHP to my knowledge. If it was to be used the population on BHP would be zero in a day. Numbers in the Eastern Alps seem to be less but still lots of indication of damage around the Limestone/Cobberas areas. I was out there recently and saw mostly horse damage, some pig damage, very little deer damage and lots of rabbit damage.

[Eremophila]

I'm sure I read somewhere, about a week ago, that aerial shooting was commencing/had commenced. Can't remember the exact location though.

[Xplora]

I'm sure I read somewhere, about a week ago, that aerial shooting was commencing/had commenced. Can't remember the exact location though.

Are you talking Vic or NSW?

[Eremophila]

Are you talking Vic or NSW?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-27/ ... /103031922

sorry, it was "aerial culling will resume".

[Xplora]

Are you talking Vic or NSW?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-27/ ... /103031922

sorry, it was "aerial culling will resume".

Just to update everyone in case they have not been following.
In Vic, aerial culling of horses has always been allowed but it has been deferred in preference to other control measures. Recently Vic started ground shooting of horses on BHP, Barmah Forest and the Eastern Alps. Aerial shooting of deer and other invasive species has continued unabated. Aerial shooting of horses may or may not have started in some areas of Vic but it was ruled out on BHP initially in favour of rehoming but there are not enough homes for the horses and I only know of one rehomer who will take any horse trapped. Trapyards are alleged to have been interfered with. It is also alleged about 40 horses have been shot in the southern area of BHP between McNamarras hut and Youngs. Population estimates before shooting were over 100 and could be as many as 200(?? can't remember the higher number off hand). Horse operations are kept secret so you will not get much information even from the parkies you know.

In NSW aerial shooting of horses has been approved by the minister for KNP but has been ongoing for all other invasive species for some time. A senate inquiry led by Animal Justice Party Emma Hurst will try to stop aerial shooting but the federal inquiry suggests aerial shooting of horses is necessary and the NSW legislation protecting horses could be constitutionally invalid but that would have to be put to the test in court. The NSW has indicated it will not be attempting to repeal the legislation and it does not have the numbers in the LC to pass it anyway. ANJ, Shooters and Fishers and One Nation all support keeping horses in the park to cause damage and the LNP will as well. A count of horses is believed to have been conducted recently and the numbers will be out soon.

Numbers of horses have been questioned for both Vic and NSW. More like the counting method and statistical modelling has been challenged and the horse advocates are relying on a vegan animal rights activist who is a biostatistician. They claim she is independent. She also does not have any experience with wildlife counting. I am fairly certain her arguments can be countered by those who know more about the methods than me but even with my limited experience I can see some false assumptions made in an attempt to discredit the methods used by Vic and NSW.

The pro horse people are in a bit of a spin just now and there is talk of another legal challenge in NSW but for reasons not known publicly this has stalled. It would be costly and they do not seem to have access to the funds. It could take years to raise it. By then the job would be done. It seems to me a number of very positive things are happening on the ground but the rugged area of the Eastern Alps will always hold some horses. To the north NSW currently has a retention area but horses are migrating over the border and will be shot.

The NSW management plan set a maximum number of horses in retention areas (32% of the park) at 3000 but horses currently occupy 53% of the park so there is still plenty of scope for NPWS to remove horses. It is argued there are less than 3000 horses in the entire KNP but that is not relevant to exclusion areas. Wes Fang (National Party Whip) as well as Ray Hadley (others on 2GB as well) have tried to tell people aerial culling of horses started last Monday but Penny Sharpe said it had not. There is an aerial cull in KNP going on now and I would not see Penny lying about the operation as it could mean her job. It will be happening sometime soon though. There has been some media support for horse advocates but mostly it has been against them. The usual suspects are those right wing media supporters and we all know the quality of their work.

[stry]

Thanks for the update.

[davidmorr]

Yes, thanks for the update. I have been too busy to follow it in detail lately.

[Xplora]

I should mention ground shooting of horses in NSW has been ongoing for a number of months. That is also causing the pro horse people conniptions.

[davidmorr]

I should mention ground shooting of horses in NSW has been ongoing for a number of months. That is also causing the pro horse people conniptions.

I think at one stage they were advocating for ground shooting as more humane.....

[farefam]

The horses are feral pests, just like deer, feral cats and pigs. I am in favour of total eradication, by any means necessary, including shooting.

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

The horses are feral pests, just like deer, feral cats and pigs. I am in favour of total eradication, by any means necessary, including shooting.

Don't think you'll get much argument on this site, except the 'by any means necessary' comment.. should still be humane and with minimal suffering. Ideally they could be removed and resettled but this has been shown to be impractical (both in terms of removing and resettling).

[Xplora]

Trapping and rehoming is actually less humane than shooting. Ground shooting is humane but less effective than aerial shooting as it is not possible to get across some terrain. Aerial shooting with modern equipment is also humane. The opponents will want you to believe animals bleed out for hours but that is not so. They also do not oppose aerial shooting of other pests. Horses are special apparently. There are others who say chasing them down and roping is the best way but that also puts stress on the animals. There is no easy solution and the most effective is the least palatable. I would be happy for a zero tolerance but I doubt it is possible even if legislation permitted (NSW).

[johnw]

Having witnessed the severe envIronmental damage they cause on numerous occasions I agree with total eradication, but it must be done humanely. Although I doubt total eradication is a realistic goal. I think aerial or ground shooting by appropriately qualified and experienced shooters is the most humane method, based on what I've been told. One ranger I've known for many years as a volunteer (not KNP) once told me that if you've ever watched an animal die from 1080 poisoning you'll never object to shooting again. I'm not sure 1080 is even an option with feral horses but shooting is definitely quick, with minimal suffering if done competently.

[michael_p]

Interesting side story about ABC journalist giving advice to the pro brumby people. I can't seem to get the embedded video to start at the right time so fast forward to 13:42 for the brumby story.

[Lophophaps]

Try
https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episo ... /103710960
Facts and logic are outside the remit of pro-horse people.

There’s a book The brumby wars The battle for the soul of Australia
https://www.hachette.com.au/anthony-sha ... -australia

[Warin]

There’s a book The brumby wars The battle for the soul of Australia
https://www.hachette.com.au/anthony-sha ... -australia

Thanks for that... available from some 125 libraries ...

https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/247613828 ... mby%20Wars

[crollsurf]

Here we go again.
Anyone want to get on the committee!
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/animals-and-plants/pest-animals-and-weeds/pest-animals/wild-horses/managing-wild-horses/kosciuszko-national-park-wild-horse-management/advisory-panels

[Xplora]

Here we go again.
Anyone want to get on the committee!
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/animals-and-plants/pest-animals-and-weeds/pest-animals/wild-horses/managing-wild-horses/kosciuszko-national-park-wild-horse-management/advisory-panels

I like banging my head against a brick wall. On a positive note, more horses have been removed in the last year than the previous 19 combined and it continues although one group is attempting Supreme court action to try and stop it again. That is due to start on the 6th June but it seems their only argument is the flawed and so called independent count of 3% of the park. With the numbers shot since that count it would seem there are a lot more horses than the horse supporters would admit to. The so called expert biostatistician, Claire Galea, stated there was only 500-600 left in the park and I think that was posted two months ago before the park closed and the shooting started in earnest. Perhaps she should revise her estimate.