Horses and heritage

[wander]

Did Brumbies do this ?? Wake up Australia.

This picture was most likely taken from this recent abc story. However it is not made clear where the picture was taken and it could be essentially anywhere that is being logged in Australia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-20/vicforests-illegally-logging-in-water-catchments/100079514

[Zapruda]

Stry, Davidmorr and Potato are correct, this is exclosure fencing to keep the horses out. Is this in the Cascades area? There was some new exclosure fencing installed to protect the Galaxias in the area.

This is a horse trap btw.

Is that the trap at Cowombat Flat?

This one is just inside the ACT on the way up to Mt Murray from Yaouk gap.

[north-north-west]

Stry, Davidmorr and Potato are correct, this is exclosure fencing to keep the horses out. Is this in the Cascades area? There was some new exclosure fencing installed to protect the Galaxias in the area.
This is a horse trap btw.

Is that the trap at Cowombat Flat?

This one is just inside the ACT on the way up to Mt Murray from Yaouk gap.

Is that a recent shot? That thing was there when I walked that ridge - must be getting on for ten years back. Or am I thinking of the northern ridge to Bimberi?

[Zapruda]

Yep still there and so is the one on Bimberi. Good memory.

That shot was May last year. I’ve been up as recently as March and both are still there.

[Xplora]

Another issue. But is it in the National Park? If the horses learnt to stay in State forest then nobody would bother them except those who seek to protect these horses

Think you'll find some state forest don't want then either. Same thing with farmers.

There is less pressure for land managers in State forest to deal with this problem but certainly some legislative responsibility. In Victoria, there will be some cross over with control in State forest because the horses do not respect the park boundary. I have never heard of any feral horse control program or management plan in a state forest. Farmers are no longer bothered by feral horses because of fences but in bygone days have shot them in the thousands. As the feral horses are not longer of economic impact they are of no concern.

[gayet]

just released. KP Brumbie Management Plan
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-01/wild-horses-management-brumbies-kosciuszko-/100507398

[crollsurf]

NSW NPWS has just released a draft Wild Horses Heritage Management Plan
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/-/media/OEH/Corporate-Site/Documents/Parks-reserves-and-protected-areas/Parks-management-other/kosciuszko-national-park-draft-wild-horse-heritage-management-plan-210347.pdf
Better but 3000 horses still sounds like a lot to me.

[Hughmac]

Sounds great, except that an 11,000 reduction in the brumby population is supposed to be achieved initially by trapping and re-homing them, and if that (inevitably) fails, it will be done by trapping and euthenasing them. The idea that they can effectively trap 11,000 brumbies is farcical. The *&%$#! things will continue to breed faster than they can be caught. This is just another non-solution to placate Pork Barillaro and his mates.

[davidmorr]

Sounds great, except that an 11,000 reduction in the brumby population is supposed to be achieved initially by trapping and re-homing them, and if that (inevitably) fails, it will be done by trapping and euthenasing them. The idea that they can effectively trap 11,000 brumbies is farcical. The *&%$#! things will continue to breed faster than they can be caught. This is just another non-solution to placate Pork Barillaro and his mates.

Good luck with rehoming them. That is what they have been trying to do for decades. No-one wanted the 200 per year they were allowed to trap then. They went to the abattoir. So rehoming 11,0000 is laughable.

[Eremophila]

With an enormous surplus of well-trained, largely disease and parasite free racehorses unable to be re-homed, what chance of placing feral animals?
I’d suggest it would be more cruel than shooting them, to capture, transport, contain them in a small paddock without their herd and attempt to “break” them. Gelding and drenching a wild horse could be challenging too.
Then they’re likely to attempt to break through fences…..good luck.

[davidmorr]

Many of them are not the fine specimens the romantics claim. They are just nags so a horse friend said, inbred, malformed, crippled, often scrawny.

[Xplora]

Sounds great, except that an 11,000 reduction in the brumby population is supposed to be achieved initially by trapping and re-homing them, and if that (inevitably) fails, it will be done by trapping and euthenasing them. The idea that they can effectively trap 11,000 brumbies is farcical. The *&%$#! things will continue to breed faster than they can be caught. This is just another non-solution to placate Pork Barillaro and his mates.

Ground shooting is on the table. The more important aspect of the plan is whether they got the sensitive areas right.

With an enormous surplus of well-trained, largely disease and parasite free racehorses unable to be re-homed, what chance of placing feral animals?
I’d suggest it would be more cruel than shooting them, to capture, transport, contain them in a small paddock without their herd and attempt to “break” them. Gelding and drenching a wild horse could be challenging too.
Then they’re likely to attempt to break through fences…..good luck.

There are certainly some challenges to re-homing that is why most prefer younger horses. Some people, like Colleen Obrien, will take all types and has what is needed to keep them safe and break them. Breaking an older wild horse is possible but you really need to know what you are doing. I have two former race horses and I would not say they come well trained. The race horse industry is just another meat factory and horses are not broken in to suit your average rider. I would say you need an equal amount of skill to train one off the track as a wild horse. At least with a wild horse you are not correcting all the bad things it has been taught.

Many of them are not the fine specimens the romantics claim. They are just nags so a horse friend said, inbred, malformed, crippled, often scrawny.

This is more the point with re-homing. You could not give one away to me. Congenital defects are common. There would be a level of inbreeding but this occurs more when population sizes are small. Certainly over time you would see it. The so called romantics know this also and have seeded fresh stock into herds over the years. Trying to get some size back to them. Mostly they are only good enough for young kids to ride due to their size. The trend with the horse supporters is not to re-home now and they are campaigning to keep the horses where they are. There will never be enough homes but at least now horses will not be released once caught in traps.

[tom_brennan]

NSW NPWS has just released a draft Wild Horses Heritage Management Plan
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/-/media/OEH/Corporate-Site/Documents/Parks-reserves-and-protected-areas/Parks-management-other/kosciuszko-national-park-draft-wild-horse-heritage-management-plan-210347.pdf
Better but 3000 horses still sounds like a lot to me.

3000 horses is still a lot. But realistically, the plan is only to 2027. To get to 3000 horses by 2027 would be a pretty heroic effort.

Based on where we are now, the most important thing is to actually start getting the damned creatures out of the park. The efforts of the last few years don't count!

[johnw]

NSW NPWS has just released a draft Wild Horses Heritage Management Plan
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/-/media/OEH/Corporate-Site/Documents/Parks-reserves-and-protected-areas/Parks-management-other/kosciuszko-national-park-draft-wild-horse-heritage-management-plan-210347.pdf
Better but 3000 horses still sounds like a lot to me.

3000 horses is still a lot. But realistically, the plan is only to 2027. To get to 3000 horses by 2027 would be a pretty heroic effort.

Based on where we are now, the most important thing is to actually start getting the damned creatures out of the park. The efforts of the last few years don't count!

At least Mr Brumby has now gone. I won't hold my breath but It would be nice if his successor has more appropriate view of the problem.

[Warin]

At least Mr Brumby has now gone. I won't hold my breath but It would be nice if his successor has more appropriate view of the problem.

I have no faith that changing the people will lead to a change of view. The party and it's backers remain the same.

From todays ABC https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-29/ ... /100578124

An open letter signed by 69 researchers and backed by the Australian Academy of Science is calling on the NSW government to cull all feral horses in Kosciuszko National Park.
Recent data suggests around 14,000 wild horses live in Kosciuszko National Park and the NSW government's draft wild horse management plan aims to reduce this to 3,000 over six years.
The letter, signed by Australian National University's environmental researcher Jamie Pittock, said this would lead to further environmental degradation of plants, animals and ecosystems.
He said all feral horses must be culled. "The feral horses do tremendous environmental damage … they don't belong in national parks," he said.

I see no solution other than culling. Moving them simply shifts the problem elsewhere. No one wants them other than as a fanciful backdrop to their imaginations.

[Xplora]

The Weekly Times is running a poll to see what people think about shooting the horses in Victoria. Unsurprisingly the poll is running in favour of NO. This page is not paywalled like the others on the WT so get in and cast a vote if you like. It takes 10 seconds. https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/n...k ... 38c8a98608

This is in response to the new management plan that came out this week. Ground and aerial shooting is now an option in certain circumstances. Trapping and rehoming the preferred option but only if there are suitable homes. About 300 people applied and 10 were found to be suitable. Horses will not go to the knackery if trapped and not suitable for rehoming. They will be put down at the trapyard.

[Eremophila]

Thanks for the link Xplora.

[stry]

Thanks Exlora. Done !

I have read both the Vic. and NSW plans in detail, and although there are similarities in style, I am encouraged by the firmer tone in the Vic. plan.

NSW needs to do more, and do it much quicker, but obviously the political and emotional hurdles there are greater. It is, none the less, a start, and that in itself is encouraging.

[Xplora]

A big issue coming up for Victoria will be the introduction of legislation similar to NSW that attempts to give heritage status to the horses. While it is not likely to succeed in the current political climate it could be enough for the opposition to call a halt to all plans while it is being discussed. Just more stalling tactics like the failed court battles. The bill will be introduced in the upper house and may get through there with some help. The main focus for the horse advocates is Bogong and Barmah where horses are marked for complete removal. The Barmah horses have none of the heritage claimed. A survey conducted many many years ago found the horses were from a trotting stable. None were descended from horses bred for wartime. The Bogong's have some lineage to horses sold as remounts but it seems that stopped before WW1.

Those supporting legislation will tell you any amount of lies. The opening ceremony at the Sydney Olympics was a tribute to the 'brumbies' and now Ammo, the horse featured in the ceremony was a brumby. The only horse ever to return from WWI was bred on the Bogong High Plains. Lies. It was born on a farm in Tallangatta. All the horses ridden at the Turks at Beersheba were Brumbies. More lies. I't doesn't make any difference. We can still recognise the importance of horses in our pioneer history without having them destroy the future.

[peregrinator]

A brilliant summary, Xplora. Your final sentence is one that needs to be expressed by us all on every possible occasion.

[Lophophaps]

Xplora, I too like your last sentence. The Weekly Times is asking the wrong question. Try these:
Do you want to ensure that water supplies and the environment are maintained at a high standard?
Do you want to avoid non-native animals facing death by starvation and cold?
What solution do you have to resolve the impact of feral horses?
Do you want to see animals treated humanely?

Maybe we should have our own survey.

[Warin]

More from the above ...
In NSW Kosi NP;
Reduce numbers of horses to 3,000.
Keep horses out of ~60% of the park.

The actuality of the above is yet to be seen ... how do are horses kept out of ~60% of the park? Fencing?

I do like them keeping the horses out of most of the park - it can then be seen the difference of horse free vs horse presence.

[Xplora]

More from the above ...
In NSW Kosi NP;
Reduce numbers of horses to 3,000.
Keep horses out of ~60% of the park.

The actuality of the above is yet to be seen ... how do are horses kept out of ~60% of the park? Fencing?

I do like them keeping the horses out of most of the park - it can then be seen the difference of horse free vs horse presence.

Just to clarify, the total number of horses is not to exceed 3000 in the parts of the park they are allowed to be in. That number will not be maintained and could drop. When horses wander into restricted area they will be subject to control measures. Horses roam. When you remove horses from one area it will be filled with new mobs. This is an opportunity to reduce horse numbers further in time.

[headwerkn]

I't doesn't make any difference. We can still recognise the importance of horses in our pioneer history without having them destroy the future.

I've been watching this thread and topic for years - you've summed it up perfectly.

Bleeding heart emotions have no place in the debate when it comes to management of destructive feral/introduced species in the Australian bush. The most targeted, least cruel (for the animal) method has always been a well-placed bullet to the head. Poisoning, trapping, catch/neuter/release/domesticate etc. are far more cruel to the creature concerned and rarely if ever achieve the primary required outcome, often with collateral effect on native species. All to temper sensitive hearts. Sorry, no sale. Get over yourselves.

Tasmania no longer allows cattle to graze over our alpine heathland because of stomping damage. Why Vic/NSW would allow feral horses to do the same is insane.

[Lophophaps]

ABC, Four Corners, Monday 21 February 2021, Feral
https://www.abc.net.au/4corners/feral:- ... s/13758386

I've made this a global sticky until 21 February. It's an important conservation issue.

[Xplora]

I am not expecting anything new or surprising from Four Corners. It is only about Kosci and the usual suspects will be interviewed. It will may get some people listening for the first time but I doubt it will break new ground.

[Mcspud]

I stopped going to northern Kosciusko as it’s a horse toilet

[Mechanic-AL]

If only people could get so emotional about saving some of our native fauna as they do about saving feral horses.......
Our record for protecting what rightfully belongs here is shameful.

[davidmorr]

If only people could get so emotional about saving some of our native fauna as they do about saving feral horses.......
Our record for protecting what rightfully belongs here is shameful.

When you point out to them that the horses are killing little cuddly native animals, they look at you blankly....

[Tortoise]

I need to watch the whole of the Four Corners episode, but there's lots I don't get.

For many years, The Man from Snowy River was my favourite movie. Mt Howitt was my favourite place, and it was cool seeing places I loved in a movie. In the 1980s I spent many months in the high country, and it felt special to spot the very occasional mob of brumbies. But am I right in thinking:

- all the scientific evidence shows serious destruction by a feral species
- brumby advocates give absolutely no rational basis for rejecting all the science
?

And isn't it a criminal offence to threaten someone's life, or to incite violence, as some brumby advocates are doing on trackable social media?