Turbo Tortoise - going lighter

[Tortoise]

I know there's been a lot of discussion re going lighter weight, and thought I'd add my recent experience.

Against the background of a growing "I'm not as young as I used to be and have some trouble with my knees & speed", it came to a head early this year. Near the end of a walk, I tripped over and turned into a rather inelegant and ineffective upside-down tortoise , and needed to unbuckle my 20ish kg pack in order to get up. A friend who was there went to move the pack. Shocked at the weight of it, she said that i REALLY needed to do something about that. Hmmm, yes, I've been thinking about it for years.

I've started gradually acquiring some lighter gear, mainly 2nd and 3rd hand via this forum, and otherwise by sales I was alerted to here. .

Last Sunday I headed off to Mt Emmett with a friend, planning on spending the night at Scott Kilvert hut. It was the first time ever that I went without a tent. (Scary stuff, but we figured our chances of not finding space in the hut on a Sunday night were about zero.) I managed to keep the weight to about 9.5 kg, including food and water, for a forecast 1 degree night. Whoo hooo! Did share a stove, though. I probably would normally have been carrying about 14 or 15 kgs, including a tent & stove, so it's still a significant change.

Combined with the loss of a few kgs the 'easy' way this year, and the opportunity to do lots of walking lately, my walking buddy was asking about the helium balloons in my backpack. Never before have I cruised up to Cradle like that! I've got a way to go, but am very encouraged and excited by the extra options I now have.

The challenge will be when the window allowing so much walking closes, to not balloon back myself.

One interesting thing I've found is that while I've got a couple of lighter packs, I can't make them sit really comfortably, no matter what I do. So I keep going back to my $1 tip shop Berghaus pack with it's couple of holes. It weighs about 500 gm more, but I do much better with it. My Mont Supertanker hopefully won't get much use from now on - though it still is very comfy indeed.

[wayno]

maybe you should talk to phil or forest, or is ultralighting going too far?

[ofuros]

Your on your way...to a lighter way, weight wise & gear wise, keep it up Tortoise !
I didn't have any trouble picturing an upside down tortoise...even been a rolly polly tortoise myself,
saved by luckily place tree otherwise I'd be still rolling.....

[Tortoise]

maybe you should talk to phil or forest, or is ultralighting going too far?

Hi Wayno. Maybe one day, but giant leaps are still too scary!

Probably more important than getting lighter gear (which itself is seriously helpful), is the mind shift involved in changing the balance between comfort & safety (real or perceived), and lightness of weight.

E.g. Having been involved in treating some pretty nasty injuries in remote places, it's taken a long time to start down-sizing my first aid kit.

[Tortoise]

Thanks for the encouragement, ofuros.

I didn't have any trouble picturing an upside down tortoise...even been a rolly polly tortoise myself,
save by luckily place tree otherwise I'd be still rolling.....

Here's to trees!

[Strider]

Perhaps it might help if you posted your current gear list for us to peruse?

[GPSGuided]

The first step in weight reduction talks is to provide a list. So through which items did you achieve this major weight reduction? Show us a list. Or haven't you bought a gram counter yet?

[Tortoise]

Yep, you're both right, Strider & GPSguided. I need another list! I've got various lists and a couple of spreadsheets, and a little gram counter, but am woefully disorganised in my head, and go in incomprehensible circles. Hard to explain.

But, I've gone from:

Exped Downmat 7, or my ancient 3/4 thermarest + closed cell foam square, to a NeoAir

-10 down sleeping bag, to a zero-ish down quilt, with the down jacket I take anyway, and a new modified large down vest that keeps my bottom half warm, as backup.

Big weight and volume saving with just those 2 items.

I now have a couple of smaller, lighter goretex jackets to pick from. A good forecast meant i took my paclite.

Primaloft hoodie instead of a fleece top

Decided I can live with less layers of clothes. A few times I've been really cold walking in the past, so went overboard to make sure that would ever happen again!

Significantly reduced volume means I can take a smaller, lighter pack

I've reduced the amount of food I take - still enough, but less scroggin and less emergency food.

Reduced first aid kit - trying to learn I don't have to save the world , and having a PLB does make a difference.

Stopped taking the ankle brace I've carried since my avulsion ankle fracture that didn't heal up properly. I've decided a compression bandage will do, and it's unlikely that i'll sprain my ankle and get bitten by a snake at the same time!

Left out the red wine

Lighter headtorch

Often just my compact camera

Gradually carrying less water - old habits from NSW & Vic die hard!

[stry]

Left out the red wine ? That's a serious decision !!

[Strider]

Why do you need a down jacket AND a primaloft hoody?

You could never ever make me leave my Downmat behind!

[Tortoise]

Fair enough question, Strider.

I still want a mid layer for walking - more than just a thinnish but very comfy thermal and rainjacket, and want a dry down jacket for the evening, which also allows me to save lots of weight with the quilt.

Actually so far I've found the neoair just as comfy as the downmat. Probably helps that I'm very short and getting less wide. I still use the downmat for car camping, mainly to prolong the life of the neoair that feels much more delicate.

[Tortoise]

Left out the red wine ? That's a serious decision !!

Figured I can enjoy it at home instead. There's so much I'm enjoying out there anyway.
Might pop in a little bit of port for special occasions though.

[GPSGuided]

Anyone tried to dehydrate a bottle of Bordeaux for walks?

[blacksheep]

Anyone tried to dehydrate a bottle of Bordeaux for walks?

I've gone the other way - a bottle of Bordeaux has dehydrated me on some walks.

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

Reduced first aid kit - trying to learn I don't have to save the world , and having a PLB does make a difference.

Be interested to know what the breakdown of what your FA kit contains now? First aid and pack (I still like canvass) are the two things I still insist on being "heavy"... but I often wonder if my FA kit is over the top .

[icefest]

As far as alcohol goes, I once met a guy who used his own distilled alcohol as fuel for his alcohol stove. That way he had a supply of fuel that wasn't poisonous and that could be drunk for morale.

Of course this wasn't exactly legal so I won't say who or where it was.

EDIT:
Back to the topic at hand; what stove/pot combination do you use, if you have updated little in the past 10 years then you might be able to save several hundred grams by switching to a FMS300T or similar.

[Nuts]

Iv'e been thinking about your down skirt. As er.. functional as it looks maybe you could add little zips to open each shoulder?
Have you thought about a lightweight bivy bag Turbo? Short walks with huts around and a good forecast they can save some weight, at least a backup in case you are separated (or just enjoying your peak too much)...

[wayno]

how heavy is your footwear. every 100g on your feet can be the equivalent of at least 600g on your back

[forest]

Great to see others lightening up. I'd probably think a little more about taking both a primaloft hoodie and down jacket. Unless they are both very thin one might be enough. I know you list the primaloft as a midlayer but what's it actually like while walking ? Not to hot and sweaty. My preference is for a thin fleece pullover (Grid or 100wt, around 250g) and a windshirt etc. I've found too many nylon layers of material can make things steamy i.e 2 layers alone on the primaloft hoodie. Gives you more options with layers, or more to the point breathable layers. For wet Tassie weather maybe a thin fleece, windshirt & primaloft hoodie would be enough for everything. I'm liking the primaloft for anything with the chance of a wet peak in windy, cold/wet conditions (Like NZ or Tassie).

Playing with a windvest ATM, has plenty of promise........

[wayno]

hmmm primaloft, clammy on the go.... tends to get used as active wear in really cold conditions or campwear in not so cold conditions

[Tortoise]

Thanks for all your thoughts, folks. i've only got a bit of time now, so hopefully will get back to finish responding soon.

how heavy is your footwear. every 100g on your feet can be the equivalent of at least 600g on your back

Love the lightweight boots from (mumble mumble) a KTM sale. Extremely comfy, and the only pair of my boots I can walk in at the moment without aggravating my achilles tendon. Main problem is that they're disintegrating after 3 months of walking. I confess to have been through some scrub in them, and they're obviously not made for such a task. The initial annoying thing was that, while advertised as waterproof with ngx, they never were, even walking to my chook yard at home. I could take them back, except they now look a bit trashed, I haven't yet found a replacement, and I want to keep walking as much as I can.

Iv'e been thinking about your down skirt. As er.. functional as it looks maybe you could add little zips to open each shoulder?
Have you thought about a lightweight bivy bag Turbo? Short walks with huts around and a good forecast they can save some weight, at least a backup in case you are separated (or just enjoying your peak too much)...

Hey Nuts. You like my ..er.. skirt?! Will think about further modifications. Not sure if it would mean more warm air would escape, and the zips would add a little weight. Would definitely gain in the fashion stakes, though.

Re lightweight bivvy - i did take mine this time (basic SOL foil lined bag), because of no tent, and because of a long day walk. I find sleep a little hard to come by, and love my tent - Akto, about 1.8kg with footprint irrc. I don't even sleep as well if I have a tent with a mesh inner, and get a bit claustrophobic in tents with less headroom. Being short, i have heaps of headroom in the Akto.

[Nuts]

We had the Akto's for a while. They are great little tents. The less-tall seem happiest, perhaps less condensation as well as being easier to negotiate given the size. So much depends on personal situations with tent sizes, sleeping pad designs, pack fittings, warm clothing doesn't it. I think I could sleep on a bed of echidnas but it wouldn't otherwise be something to compromise on- poor sleep (though i'm told a few 00 meters from others might be wize ).

I tried a crux Ak37 pack which seems perfect for scrub bashers (at about a kg.. Ak47/1.1kg). I can guess it would be horrible for anyone who struggles with better padded, less 'minimal' packs.

[Taurë-rana]

I'm sure my daypack is heavier than 9.5kg! But if I got caught out overnight I'd be reasonably comfortable.
Did you get up Emmett?

[Tortoise]

Did you get up Emmett?

[Tortoise]

Great to see others lightening up. I'd probably think a little more about taking both a primaloft hoodie and down jacket. Unless they are both very thin one might be enough. I know you list the primaloft as a midlayer but what's it actually like while walking ? Not to hot and sweaty. My preference is for a thin fleece pullover (Grid or 100wt, around 250g) and a windshirt etc. I've found too many nylon layers of material can make things steamy i.e 2 layers alone on the primaloft hoodie. Gives you more options with layers, or more to the point breathable layers. For wet Tassie weather maybe a thin fleece, windshirt & primaloft hoodie would be enough for everything. I'm liking the primaloft for anything with the chance of a wet peak in windy, cold/wet conditions (Like NZ or Tassie).

Playing with a windvest ATM, has plenty of promise........

Re primaloft - I haven't actually needed to use it as a midlayer walking yet, so will update when i do.

Discovered i have a huge error with my gram counter - up to about 20% variation done at different times.

But as a guide, my midlayers for walking are:

Primaloft hoodie: 278g
Old fleece pullover: 307g
Fleece shirt 375g

So the hoodie is lighter and more compact than my fleeces, and should be warmer. I'm just not sure how good it will be in practice if it gets wet.

I'd only wear it if I was cold (mainly walk alpine in Tassie), so i don't think steamy will be an issue. I should mention that i have a long sleeve shirt that I usually walk in.

I'm very keen to be warm and dry at night (often just above/below zero), so I want a warm layer I haven't worn during the day.

I'm trying a Helly Hanson wind shirt on and off in the walking mix, but not impressed so far.

[Scottyk]

how heavy is your footwear. every 100g on your feet can be the equivalent of at least 600g on your back

I wear heavy Scarpa boots and I am interested in this comment Wayno. How? Why?

[wayno]

the amount of energy you use wearing heavy footwear is a lot greater than if that weight was on your back, wearing lighter footwear can save you a significant amount of energy, swinging the extra weight around on the end of your legs takes a lot of energy. estimates range , around six to eight times the energy used moving each extra gram on your foot compared to an extra gram on your back....
i'm not advocating everyone rush out and get trail running shoes, its not the solution for everyone. but do evaluate the weight of your footwear and see if you could really use something lighter than what you have

[madmacca]

ScottyK,

The height variation of the torso (and backpack) over the course of a stride is pretty small.

The amount you lift an individual foot over the course of a stride is significantly more. On an rough trail (with lots of obstacles), you may well be lifting your foot 5 cm or so, even if there is no elevation gain.

I don't know whether it's factor of 6, but it seems pretty logical to me that lifting weight with every step is certainly more effort than just carrying it on your back.

Wayno - I am sure there is plenty of research in the sports medicine community about the effect of weight in running shoes, are you aware of any in a more bushwalking setting? Arguably the need to lift feet to clear obstacles would make the effect even more pronounced than track and field events - except perhaps hurdling.

[Bubbalouie]

Are you aware of any in a more bushwalking setting? Arguably the need to lift feet to clear obstacles would make the effect even more pronounced than track and field events - except perhaps hurdling.

Not Wayno here but here's what I've got:

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&sour ... SwOhZxuxzw

(on phone so sorry about the link format)

There is quote a bit of research to support what Wayno has said in a pack carrying context (mostly military), exact amounts tend to vary a fair bit but about 4-5x the energy requirements for a load on the feet vs a load on the back is pretty commonly concluded, sometimes higher. (my boots weigh 950g each so maybe I should do something about that actually).

[DaveNoble]

The "Bible" of bushwalking - "Rope and Rucksack" says - "Physiological tests show that 1 lb on the feet is equivalent to 4 to 10 lb. on the back." (page 14)

Dave