Bushwalk Australia

I've injured my knee four times this year, and we have finally worked out that my hip and tightness in one set of quads was affecting my foot placements, hence the incidents... slipping on a wet rock, sliding in mud when climbing over fallen tree trunks, etc. The first time I slipped on our second morning at Wilsons Prom when going out to South Point. We did finish the whole southern circuit over the next few days but crutches would have made it easier and there is no way I could have made it without my walking poles - which I almost didn't take. Each time the knee has healed and the exercises seem to strengthen it I've got back out again and then WOOPS! my weakened knee gives way. We did manage to fit in a snowshoeing trip to Pretty Valley in between injuries but I've been going stir crazy not getting out as often. A week ago I took a sea kayaking course in the hope that I could get out and about whilst my knee is recovering - again.

What do you do when you can't do what you normally do?

Having recently broken a few bones and torn some muscles and tendons I've been in a similar boat (figurative not literal). The first 2 months I just went a little mad. Now that I can walk again (I no longer limp now too, yay) I've just been going for strolls along the local river and visiting the botanic gardens.

I do miss hills but I guess that'll need to wait. Camping season is over now anyway I guess.

I am equally curious to know what people do & how they ease back into things so as not to do themselves more harm.

Sorry to hear it and a little odd! Don't quite understand what you meant by "weakened knees" and why they'd give way. And what has healed and what has strengthened? Were you suggesting that you have an inherent muscular weakness in your legs or a loss of coordination?

My knees are shot after multiple treks in the Himalaya. I've since taken up cycle touring, which to me is just like trekking, but with a bike. I even use pretty much the same gear as I used for trekking and bushwalking.
Cycling lets me keep my knees moving with bearing a lot of weight. This is important - once joints loose mobility it isn't easily restored.

RonK wrote:My knees are shot after multiple treks in the Himalaya. I've since taken up cycle touring, which to me is just like trekking, but with a bike. I even use pretty much the same gear as I used for trekking and bushwalking.
Cycling lets me keep my knees moving with bearing a lot of weight. This is important - once joints loose mobility it isn't easily restored.

How were they "shot"? I'd be surprised the Himalayan treks did them in, but can understand if they were the straws that broke the camel's back. Did you fracture them, tore ligaments or worn cartilages?

Hi GPSguided, I was definitely using layman's terminology in describing my own knees, with no medical accuracy at all. The first time I slipped on wet rocks. With physio and icepacks I got to no swelling or pain relatively quickly and did strengthening exercises as per my physio's instructions. About three months after the first injury I was back into my gym workouts full swing and landed badly from a jump squat and re-twisted my knee. Once that was healed up to pain free I started bushwalking again, then slipped on some mud whilst climbing over tree trunks, about four months after the previous incident. My latest was just embarrassing as I stepped off the footpath onto the road and didn't see the hole in the road because it was dark, and twisted my knee again. The physio would have all the notes about the assessment of what I actually injured each time. The strengthening exercises, according to my understanding, were to build up the muscles around my knee to hold the patella in place as, at least one of the times, I had hurt my ligaments (not sure which ones). After the latest injury, the physio looked at me from hip to toe whilst standing and walking to try and work out whether there were other issues beyond my knee which were putting stress on my knees or impacting my foot placement, which could explain why I slip and lose balance. I now have stretching exercises, strengthening exercises, and new orthotics.

Hi RonK, you are absolutely spot on about joint mobility. It is amazing how quickly knees stiffen up. I have found cycling on a stationary bike really useful once the swelling and pain is gone. I'm not sure I would be game to ride a bike in some of the places I like to walk. Sometimes it is more like rock scrambling or climbing. I remember seeing some amazing bike rides at the last Banff movie festival. I was petrified just watching. I might spend some time on the web to see where people go cycle touring in Victoria and just accept that the scenery is going to have to change for a while.

I really miss my long walks.... After the day of paddling I had completely switched off from work and felt really happy, just like after a good walk. So I'm open to trying new things that get me out there while I get this knee sorted out.

Curious. From your perspective, did you think your falls were freak accidents or are relatable to your coordination or a specific weakness? Did you have issues before this year? Or did they all just come on this year? I find some of the suggestions odd for the circumstance. Did you seek a second opinion?

Cycling is easy on the knees and body and is an excellent aerobic trainer. However, it can lead to a separate set of musculoskeletal issues due its preferential use of certain muscle groups. Cross training is key. Yes, I ride quite a bit and fortunately no significant issues so far.

sim1oz wrote:I've injured my knee four times this year, and we have finally worked out that my hip and tightness in one set of quads was affecting my foot placements, hence the incidents... slipping on a wet rock, sliding in mud when climbing over fallen tree trunks, etc. The first time I slipped on our second morning at Wilsons Prom when going out to South Point. We did finish the whole southern circuit over the next few days but crutches would have made it easier and there is no way I could have made it without my walking poles - which I almost didn't take. Each time the knee has healed and the exercises seem to strengthen it I've got back out again and then WOOPS! my weakened knee gives way. We did manage to fit in a snowshoeing trip to Pretty Valley in between injuries but I've been going stir crazy not getting out as often. A week ago I took a sea kayaking course in the hope that I could get out and about whilst my knee is recovering - again.

What do you do when you can't do what you normally do

I love paddling as an alternative to hiking, the same way cycle touring is. A while back, I broke my tailbone Packrafting and found that after the initial critical period of healing was done, I used bushwalking as my lead back into the outdoors as cycling and paddling was out.

I was only able to get in the pool and start swimming initially to maintain cardio and then some light hikes. It took three months before I was back paddling.

Meh, I just keep limping along until it gets too painful.
OK, I've started taking Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements, plus I have prescription NSAIDS for when the knee does play up, plus I'm planning on doing a lot more paddling . . . oddly, I find the mountain bike uncomfortable to use. Tend to get far more twinges from the knee when cycling.

That's my usual approach NNW, and have gone through periods of needing anti inflammatories to deal with the pain of pushing through injury.
Funny you mention the MTB and twinges etc. it really enforces the fact that what works for one doesn't necessarily work for others. Sometimes I can run for training and sometimes I can't. The same goes for riding.

Pedalling technique and bike set up are critical to look after your knees.

neilmny wrote:Pedalling technique and bike set up are critical to look after your knees.

Well, the thing was professionally set up when I bought it, so I can only assume my pedalling technique is ratty. I've had to raise the saddle to make it more comfortable for the knees, but that makes my bung shoulder play up . . .

neilmny wrote:Pedalling technique and bike set up are critical to look after your knees.

Correct. Proper fit of a bike is critical. Some serious riders pay hundreds to get it adjusted and done to minute detail.

north-north-west wrote:

neilmny wrote:Pedalling technique and bike set up are critical to look after your knees.

Well, the thing was professionally set up when I bought it, so I can only assume my pedalling technique is ratty. I've had to raise the saddle to make it more comfortable for the knees, but that makes my bung shoulder play up . . .

Everything starts with the saddle and then work from there out. Get the saddle height correct and if the bar is too low, then raise the bar. If the bar can't be raised to a comfortable height, then you have the wrong bike. Compromise will just lead to more compromises and injuries.

Yes, I must get the thing out and adjust the bar. It should be possible to get it set better, but with all the dodgy bits of my body it's hard to get something like this set so nothing niggles.

Not today though. Not in this weather. *shiver*

Cadence is the key as well NNW. Most people grind away at far to low a cadence.
This hurts. You want to be spinning at over 60RPM at all times.
It takes a bit to get used to but once you do you should find a difference all round.
Muscling it in too high a gear will hurt everything.
Putting aside his transgressions, take a look at Lance Armstrong,
Now there's a person who used high cadence even when standing on the pedals!
Try to track your legs (thighs) directly over the pedals. This is fairly critical if using clipless pedals
because pointing your knees out at any angle creates a screwing action in your knees which is bad news.

I'd best add I am no expert, I just worked hard on making my life easier and more comfortable
when on my el cheapo treadly. There are (was?) some very good links around that explain set up that might help.

A youtube link with a good demo for setting up mountain bikes.

There are so many online help articles that relates to basic fittings of a bike. The following is a start.
http://www.bikefit.com/s-13-road-bikes.aspx

As said before, start by the saddle and pedal, then the bar.

GPSGuided wrote:

RonK wrote:My knees are shot after multiple treks in the Himalaya. I've since taken up cycle touring, which to me is just like trekking, but with a bike. I even use pretty much the same gear as I used for trekking and bushwalking.
Cycling lets me keep my knees moving with bearing a lot of weight. This is important - once joints loose mobility it isn't easily restored.

How were they "shot"? I'd be surprised the Himalayan treks did them in, but can understand if they were the straws that broke the camel's back. Did you fracture them, tore ligaments or worn cartilages?

Worn out from hours of descending. No doubt my early working environment and carrying heavily loaded packs contributed but the real damage occurred walking out from Kangchenjunga.

sim1oz wrote:I've injured my knee four times this year, and we have finally worked out that my hip and tightness in one set of quads was affecting my foot placements, hence the incidents... slipping on a wet rock, sliding in mud when climbing over fallen tree trunks, etc. The first time I slipped on our second morning at Wilsons Prom when going out to South Point. We did finish the whole southern circuit over the next few days but crutches would have made it easier and there is no way I could have made it without my walking poles - which I almost didn't take. Each time the knee has healed and the exercises seem to strengthen it I've got back out again and then WOOPS! my weakened knee gives way. We did manage to fit in a snowshoeing trip to Pretty Valley in between injuries but I've been going stir crazy not getting out as often. A week ago I took a sea kayaking course in the hope that I could get out and about whilst my knee is recovering - again.

What do you do when you can't do what you normally do?

Hip and tightness in quads.
- use a foam roller. Mine cost $30 from a physio. http://www.physioadvisor.com.au/1104469 ... dvisor.htm
- for balance (amongst other things, such as quad development), try a Bosu. I use it up-side-down at the gym, with 4kg dumb-bell raises.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Bosu ... 3&ie=UTF-8
Use the Bosu for 'Mountain-Climber' exercises - http://www.realsimple.com/health/fitnes ... -workout-0


affecting my foot placements
http://www.livestrong.com/article/47902 ... d-tendons/ See 'Pencil Lifts'. Time poor? Perhaps do the similar towel scrunches whenever in the bathroom - making sure the floor is dry first. Also; http://www.livestrong.com/video/1007287 ... ides-legs/


Incidents. Slipping on a wet rock, sliding in mud.
- these things can happen in succession due to plain bad luck. The two situations I have cited are known slip/trip hazards anyway - so don't feel so bad about your incidents. Sometimes the best footwear won't work anyway - I have slipped on wet rocks wearing dunlop volleys, and in mud wearing Scarpa boots with deep tread. I believe I have shoes with better grip and better mud-shedding qualities than Volley's and Scarpa respectively.
- was your waist strap done up tight enough? Or did it need to be loose, so the pack moved to a more vertical plane and assisted with balance when walking on rocks?
- is your pack too heavy? What can be shared or done without? And my two (old-school?) multi-day packs weigh 3.0kg, empty
- try and stay perpendicular to the horizon, and not parallel to the sloping boulder or fallen tree you are walking on - this adds to the risk of your feet slipping out from under you.


Knee has healed.
I developed terrible knee pain jogging 3km to work. (One physio said/shouted to me; don't run... I don't see him anymore, out of choice.) I started driving to work again, and later, recommenced casually running Fire Trails with no training plan. This year I started marathoning - and there has been actual further improvement so as to have no knee discomfort in my everyday activities. I am a back-of-the-pack type, taking over 4h15m to do these events.


there is no way I could have made it without my walking poles
There would be wind-fallen tree-branches found en-route to South Point, for you and your companions to easily select stout sticks that would substitute well for walking poles.


We did manage to fit in a snowshoeing trip
XC skiing may offer more diversity of positioning of hip-muscles and obligate foot-ligament stretches, ie., walking/polar plodding/schlepping + take-them off and post-hole if you must + common diagonal stride (AKA kick-and-glide) + exhilarating skating + (uphill) step-turns + herringbone + skinning + various downhill turns (a simple snow-plough can easily lead into a exciting stem christie) + side-slipping (good fun). Having loaned a pair of metal-edged tele skis to a friend and me using their hired snow-shoes, yes - we all saw how hard it is to get up on XC skis with a loaded pack when on has fallen under a load... but snow-shoes = walk, walk, walk downhill, walk, walk, big step over creek, walk, walk, walk along the two kilometres of flat snow, walk down from Schlink Pass, tried some running to add to the diversity, then walk, walk...


I took a sea kayaking course
If the water was as flat as shown in your photo, you could have saved your money, and instead taken hand-written notes with you found on YouTube video and self-taught in hired craft. It is appreciated that you may have booked in days before.

If the water remained that flat throughout your course, and there was a chance it was going to do so, you could have undertaken a flat-water kayaking course anywhere to acquire the same skill set, including on the Yarra or an inland lake.
Save your money, or get better value for money prior to your next course - and read the 'Required Skills and Knowledge' + 'Range Statement', with emphasis on 'Strokes', and 'Paddling Techniques' at https://training.gov.au/Training/Details/SISOKYS304A

Your companion behind you is not using leg drive - the shoulders and torso (but not the head) should be turning towards that side of the kayak that the paddle is placed in. At the same time, the foot on that side pushes on the foot-rest. http://windsorcanoeclub.com.au/coaching ... leg-drive/
"...when the paddle is FULLY immersed in the water at the catch, the foot on the same side SQUEEZES on the foot bar, this starts a chain in motion which then transfers power through the calf muscles, through the thigh muscles, through the abdominal muscles to the paddle in the water."

Do use leg-drive, whether in the more common touring 'frog-pose', or more aggressive 'straight-leg' when in the kayak. It is the latter that will moreso enhance your quads.

To answer the question, I've just signed up to buy a lovely new motorbike, at least I'll be outside and moving! I can currently walk up mountains, but not back down. Rather takes the motivation out of going up.

Just recently started kayaking myself. Good way to get out there when the knees play up.

sim1oz wrote:Hi RonK, you are absolutely spot on about joint mobility. It is amazing how quickly knees stiffen up. I have found cycling on a stationary bike really useful once the swelling and pain is gone. I'm not sure I would be game to ride a bike in some of the places I like to walk. Sometimes it is more like rock scrambling or climbing. I remember seeing some amazing bike rides at the last Banff movie festival. I was petrified just watching. I might spend some time on the web to see where people go cycle touring in Victoria and just accept that the scenery is going to have to change for a while.

I really miss my long walks.... After the day of paddling I had completely switched off from work and felt really happy, just like after a good walk. So I'm open to trying new things that get me out there while I get this knee sorted out.

True, you're not going to get to those exceptionally rugged places by bike, but with bung knees you're not going to be walking there either. But you can reach quite high and fairly remote places, and it's not difficult to find inspiration. Here's a thread about bikepacking, and you'll find plenty of others to inspire on this forum, and plenty of vigorous debate if you're that way inclined.

For me twenty or thirty day bike tour, particularly a solo tour, is just as good for switching of the everyday world as a twenty day trek.

There are other places that bikes can access but not easily on two legs.

Q: How do you 'get out there' when you are injured?
A: Voltarin

I can't get out at the moment at all, did my shoulder in and undergoing physio to try to fix it. Torn tendons and nerves, makes carrying anything a no go. Still go camping and as it's my left shoulder can still swing a fly rod.

I also have a dodgy left ankle and knee, happened when I was a kid competing in cross country runs. Left foot went into a hole in the ground and well that pretty much stuffed my running for life, I can walk down the street and twist my ankle on a crack in the pavement, makes hiking fun

After injuring my knee yet again, I finally had an MRI which found I have a torn meniscus and ACL. Voltarin has been a good friend and physio is helping me rebuild the right muscles to improve stability. Going to speak to a surgeon in a few weeks...

I still really miss our pack walks but paddling has been a bit of a savior in getting us out there. We took the kids on a four-day canoe trip down the Glenelg River which was lots of fun and a bit of a glamping experience with everything that you can fit in a canoe - including the esky. The downside was that we didn't feel like all that remote and away from things because of all the people in fishing boats, speedboats/waterskiiers, and loads of other paddlers. The upside was we met some lovely people.

headwerkn wrote:Q: How do you 'get out there' when you are injured?
A: Voltarin

Just remember Voltaren is not a cure, but a dampening/masking agent. Your underlying injury/disease is still there, so 'get out' with moderation till true recovery.

Ha! I Managed to break my dominant R wrist ( scaphoid) in late January whilst hiking and fly fishing in a remote NZ river. Despite having a screw put in it, it is showing no signs of healing at 6 wks, so I have managed to delete many of my interests - fishing, cycling, sea kayaking.....I suppose I could always go bushwalking!

As a GP, at least I can still work.

A

andrewa wrote:Ha! I Managed to break my dominant R wrist ( scaphoid) in late January whilst hiking and fly fishing in a remote NZ river. Despite having a screw put in it, it is showing no signs of healing at 6 wks, so I have managed to delete many of my interests - fishing, cycling, sea kayaking.....I suppose I could always go bushwalking!

As a GP, at least I can still work.

A

Sorry to hear!
I shattered my Capitate and Hamate which resulted in three screws etc. and found it took almost a year before I didn't feel daily pain. It was by far one of the most prolonged and painful recoveries of all the broken bones I've had. Even a few years later, I still can't do a push-up without feeling the injury.

On the subject of knees, has anyone had any experience with Great Lakes Grass fed gelatin for joint health?

Andrewa - bummer having to give up all those great activities. Arthritis in the hands saw me swapping to a recumbent bike to take the pressure of hands and wrists so cycling may still be an option for you.

Never heard of the beef collagen Darren and I am too much of a sceptic make a useful comment on that but, despite my sceptism I gave a Combo of fish oil and glucosamine a try for my arthritis a few years ago and I have to say it woks.

For those who would suggest it is the placebo effect, who cares. Any relief is good relief which makes me a happy camper(cyclist, gardener, wookworker, fisherman, bread kneader et al)