New Track maps section coming to Bushwalk.com

[wildwalks]

Okay, I know there are a lot of bushwalking websites out there, but I want one more

I am starting a new section of Bushwalk.com that I hope will become a significant hub of bushwalking tracks in Australia and NZ. I want to catalogue thousands of walks to share our love of bushwalking within our community and more broadly. The focus will be on signposted and generally well known walks. This project has been years in the making, finally getting close to going live.

You will find topo maps, GPX, printable PDF on every walk and other info but the hyper-detailed track notes like on wildwalks will not be part of this one.
I really want to promote other sites (generally locals people) with blogs, books or other information with links to those resources. This is not trying to be all things to all people, rather helping most people find great information easily.

Show me the site!!
You can check out the alpha version of the website here.
https://prod1.maps.bushwalk.com/search/

There are only a handful of walks at the moment. I will migrate hundreds across from wildwalks in the coming weeks and start adding more walks.
There are more features coming, but for the next few weeks I want to focus on building a catalogue of walks and cleaning up the walk adding process.

Want to help?
I would love feedback, please raise suggestions in this thread.
I would love more walks. It is pretty easy (albeit a little clunky) to suggest a walk using this form:https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeDObsqtbBecwos54Gz2aH5J3BlU1KUD5elPzAbRP1r4IRXmQ/viewform
I can then do the rest from there and get the walk on the website.
If you have a blog with great info or know one, please include the link.

What else is to come?
* There are bug fixes and general tidy up stuff.
* How to go bushwalking safely, articles, packing lists etc - something like this https://www.overlandtrack.com/thrive-on-track/
* Blog tools, the ability for bloggers to include walk summaries, map, photos etc
* User contributed photos. I would love to be able to keep the information up to date. There will soon be a place to upload photos that we can then share with other walkers and also keep info uptodate.
* Apps. Based on the overlandtrack app code base. There will be a fee to access some key features ~$10 a year or something like that.
* Multi-lingual. The system has been built to support multiple language. This includes distances in feet and miles for Americans and notes in simplified Chinese, German etc. This is a semi-manual process to build as google translate is awful with directions and bushwalking notes.
* Disability access information. Although not fully implement yet, the system is designed to use the http://www.naturallyaccessible.org/ framework to improve access, even to rugged tracks for people with mobility impairment.
* Park closure, weather, fire and other warnings integration. This is mostly coded but needs more testing.
* The ability to login, favourite walks, comment etc. Yes there will be ads too. I want to get the basic thing stable first.
There is a long way to go, but I hope it will be helpful soon

Well, that was a long post. Let me know what you think.

Matt

[Baeng72]

Looks very cool.

[wildwalks]

Looks very cool.

Thanks -- should be a bit of fun

[ribuck]

Yay it's https, thanks, so maybe we will get https on the forum too!

[wildwalks]

Yay it's https, thanks, so maybe we will get https on the forum too!

Yep, I am still working out what we do with the forum interms of technology moving forward. I want to make it https, but I am also keen to migrate to another platform, but it is such a big job. The forum is huge for a website (about 50gb), with lots of images etc. So unfortunately it is not a standard easy fix. I will get to it one day

[Neo]

Having a plain map with the walks dotted all over it would be a user easy way to find some in a general area. Zoom in for more info then select one for the walk map. Something similar to wikicamps landing page.

[wildwalks]

Having a plain map with the walks dotted all over it would be a user easy way to find some in a general area. Zoom in for more info then select one for the walk map. Something similar to wikicamps landing page.

Thanks Neo -- great.
I have an option on the search results to display as a map (or the standard tiles).
https://prod1.maps.bushwalk.com/search/?word=&display=map
You can hover over for a brief summary, click for lots of details, then click again for the full page.

I am thinking this map will make up the bulk of the home page when we launch.

Does this work? any suggestions?

Matt

[Neo]

Looks perfect!

[wildwalks]

Looks perfect!

Awesome -- thanks, just will have to make it easier to find
thanks

[tastrax]

Looking good - I would also suggest moving away from Red/Green text symbols etc as its tough for colourblind folks.

https://www.impactbnd.com/blog/expert-t ... nfographic

[wildwalks]

Looking good - I would also suggest moving away from Red/Green text symbols etc as its tough for colourblind folks.

Great, thanks for that - yes. I am trying to be as high contrast etc as possible to improve readability. At this stage I have tried to keep red/green at different shades (and most other colors) so it also works for people with Monochromacy. So if people are colourblind, the should still be able to read the text fine and still group the icons by shade. I try to check everything using a monochrome setting on my monitor. The blue/green (which is a much more rare issue) is still not great at the moment. If there is anything in particular you struggle with please let me know, I am sure it can be better. Thanks again
Matt

[rcaffin]

I looked at the Smugglers Ridge or Marramarra track.
I know this track extremely well. Well, 20+ years of familiarity.
I have to say I found the directions VERY confusing. The layout of all the turns was, well, almost incomprehensible. The number of branches on the 4WD track was several times more than I can remember.
You mention a campsite at the bottom, where you hit the river. But there is no mention of the developed NPWS campsite at the foot of the spur - complete even with a biodynamic toilet.
The instructions for finding the start of the track up the spur were - there weren't any. If you have not been there before, this could be very confusing.
Some of the other tracks (I know most of them) were as bad.

Trying to look at the map on the base page was infuriating. It zoomed in, then it zoomed out to Australia, it oscillated back and forth, and I became very frustrated.

Sorry, but I think the walk details need upgrading, and the web site needs 'some work' before it can be of any use.

Cheers
Roger

[crollsurf]

Having a plain map with the walks dotted all over it would be a user easy way to find some in a general area. Zoom in for more info then select one for the walk map. Something similar to wikicamps landing page.

Thanks Neo -- great.
I have an option on the search results to display as a map (or the standard tiles).
https://prod1.maps.bushwalk.com/search/?word=&display=map
You can hover over for a brief summary, click for lots of details, then click again for the full page.

I am thinking this map will make up the bulk of the home page when we launch.

Does this work? any suggestions?

Matt

I like this, even better if the GPX was displayed on the map. Everyone is different but thats how I would work. A quick look at the GPX, not too long, not too short, looks good and then read up on the detail

[Moondog55]

Bookmarked as "BushMaps"
Great idea.

[wildwalks]

even better if the GPX was displayed on the map

Thanks
Do you mean on the search map? Currently I just show the start point, then if you hover of the details you can see the track.
But I think you want to see the line of all the walks on the search map? I kind of have a plan for that, similar to on wildwalks search page, but using a very different technology that I am yet to build, but hope to add early next year. The problem with it is dealing with 'stacked' tracks. Displaying the list of walks that use the same section of track, this is the downside of the data model I have chosen for this site, but is solvable. Is that what you mean, you want to be able to see the routes for the walks on the search page?
Thanks
Matt

[wildwalks]

Bookmarked as "BushMaps"
Great idea.

Thanks Mate

[wildwalks]

Thanks Roger.
Thanks for taking the time to give me the feedback, I can see your not a fan yet, the feedback means even more to me

I looked at the Smugglers Ridge or Marramarra track.
I know this track extremely well. Well, 20+ years of familiarity.

Nice part of the world

I have to say I found the directions VERY confusing. The layout of all the turns was, well, almost incomprehensible. The number of branches on the 4WD track was several times more than I can remember.

I would love to know more about this. I have tested this with about 60 people on track, but never tested with anyone sitting at a computer. Do you know what part of this is confusing? Is the shear number of intersection and instructions? Or the turn left turn right, distances etc?

instructions

New Project.png (25.25 KiB) Viewed 25308 times

You mention a campsite at the bottom, where you hit the river. But there is no mention of the developed NPWS campsite at the foot of the spur - complete even with a biodynamic toilet.

The are mentioned here. But obviously not clear enough.

campsite

New Project (1).png (17.49 KiB) Viewed 25308 times

Do you think it needs more information, a bigger tag to make it stand out?

The instructions for finding the start of the track up the spur were - there weren't any. If you have not been there before, this could be very confusing.
Some of the other tracks (I know most of them) were as bad.

Yes I agree there is not a great amount of detailed written instructions on this. It is a pretty clear intersection and there is a left turn instruction. People will have the topo map, GPX and perhaps the app to help. The idea of this website is that the tracknotes will be fair less detailed then notes I have written in the past.

Trying to look at the map on the base page was infuriating. It zoomed in, then it zoomed out to Australia, it oscillated back and forth, and I became very frustrated.

Sorry for the frustration. The idea of this is to help orentate people to where in AU the walk is. At rest is zooms out to AU. put mouse over it zooms in to the display the full walk. I was hoping people would figure out the behaviour with the mouse. If not I can make it less user hostile.

Sorry, but I think the walk details need upgrading, and the web site needs 'some work' before it can be of any use.

Cheers
Roger

No need to appologie, I appreciate the feedback. Not sure I agree on everything, but it is good to know your experience with it. I agree there is more work to be done. This is an early release to get this kind of feedback so I can keep improving it. The great thing about websites are the fact they are scalable and fixable. If there is map style in the PDF does not work, then I can change it across all PDF's. etc.
Thanks again

Matt

[crollsurf]

even better if the GPX was displayed on the map

Thanks
Do you mean on the search map? Currently I just show the start point, then if you hover of the details you can see the track.
But I think you want to see the line of all the walks on the search map? I kind of have a plan for that, similar to on wildwalks search page, but using a very different technology that I am yet to build, but hope to add early next year. The problem with it is dealing with 'stacked' tracks. Displaying the list of walks that use the same section of track, this is the downside of the data model I have chosen for this site, but is solvable. Is that what you mean, you want to be able to see the routes for the walks on the search page?
Thanks
Matt

Hi Matt,
Yeah, sounds like you know exactly what I'm talking about and "stacked" tracks and a lot of tracks in a small area could become challenging. Have a look at how http://www.waterwaysguide.org.au/map do it. As far as site navigation and being user friendly, you're way ahead of them but it might give you a few ideas.

map2.jpg (73.08 KiB) Viewed 25277 times

[wildwalks]

sounds like you know exactly what I'm talking about and "stacked" tracks and a lot of tracks in a small area could become challenging. Have a look at how http://www.waterwaysguide.org.au/map do it. As far as site navigation and being user friendly, you're way ahead of them but it might give you a few ideas.

Awesome. Great. Ideas are very helpful.
Great sounds like we are on a similar track (oh sorry terrible pun).
It is on my todo list, but a bit down the list at this stage. Very doable thankfully
Thanks again

[Neo]

Having a plain map with the walks dotted all over it would be a user easy way to find some in a general area. Zoom in for more info then select one for the walk map. Something similar to wikicamps landing page.

Thanks Neo -- great.
I have an option on the search results to display as a map (or the standard tiles).
https://prod1.maps.bushwalk.com/search/?word=&display=map
You can hover over for a brief summary, click for lots of details, then click again for the full page.

I am thinking this map will make up the bulk of the home page when we launch.

Does this work? any suggestions?

Matt

Via this link when I tap on a walk, the more info page comes up in the small pop up window.

(using a tablet)

This might be one frustration Roger mentioned. Usually selecting 'more info' opens on a new page away from the map page.

[wildwalks]

when I tap on a walk, the more info page comes up in the small pop up window.

(using a tablet)

This might be one frustration Roger mentioned. Usually selecting 'more info' opens on a new page away from the map page.

Ohh yeah, that just broke in a code drop yesterday it seems oops
Yes normally that would open the whole page, that is crappy. Weird works in some browsers and not others. WIll fix that soon
Thanks
Matt

[rcaffin]

Do you know what part of this is confusing? Is the shear number of intersection and instructions?
Well, sort of. If I had to give directions, I would collapse ALL of the downhill stuff into a simple statement: 'Follow the main 4WD track down the hill. Ignore lesser offshoots.' KISS.

The are mentioned here. But obviously not clear enough.
Yeah, I missed it completely!

not a great amount of detailed written instructions on this
In detail, I would say start at the NPWS signboard and head up the left hand side of the spur.
But in more general terms, I suggest you need more 'proof-reading' on the ground, in many places. Have some experienced walkers try to follow the directions while actually doing the walk. Problem: that needs a LOT more people and a LOT more work.

Question: for how many walks (and for what grade of walks) do we want this level of detailed instruction available on the web?
I don't want to seem at all elitist, but when you see the mess some casual novices leave behind them, I really do wish they would stay at home! Very selfish of me, I know. Gone are the (bad) old days of 'burn, bash and bury'; today it seems more like 'burn, bash and throw away'. Grrr.
</rant>

Cheers

[wildwalks]

Do you know what part of this is confusing? Is the shear number of intersection and instructions?
Well, sort of. If I had to give directions, I would collapse ALL of the downhill stuff into a simple statement: 'Follow the main 4WD track down the hill. Ignore lesser offshoots.' KISS.

Great, yes I get that, too much information (especially when it is repatative) can be confusing. It is a struggle to get this balance right. Some people want to know about every intersection and other want the general follow the main trail. You see this on coast tracks where some people just say keep the ocean to you left for 50km
I think I would rather start with too much information and simplify it over time. I have kept information in small bite sized chunks to make it easier to scan through.

The are mentioned here. But obviously not clear enough.
Yeah, I missed it completely!

Cool, I will think about how we draw more attention to higher priority points like this in the note. On electronic maps the icons have priorities, campsites are pretty high priority so will appear on top of the stack of icons. I am also leaning towards adding a summary of facilities/pois table, this table will help people quickly find out where all the toilets, campsites, lookouts, waterfalls etc are. I have played with this table a bit, still not sure how to make it clean on big walks.
The struggle is every visitor has different priorities. If you have contiance issues, then the location of toilets is you main focus, Some will care about campsites, swimming spots, views, hills, seats etc. I can't priorities all the information, so trying to find a nice clean way to do that so most people can find the key information important to them.

not a great amount of detailed written instructions on this
In detail, I would say start at the NPWS signboard and head up the left hand side of the spur.
But in more general terms, I suggest you need more 'proof-reading' on the ground, in many places. Have some experienced walkers try to follow the directions while actually doing the walk. Problem: that needs a LOT more people and a LOT more work.

Your right, yhis is the way I am heading with this, well picked. The idea is to get information out there and ensure it is enhanced and maintained over time (quickly) but still kept simple. With my current tracknote website, every walk is written by a staff member walking it and documenting it. The other extreme are the many websites where users can contribute any GPS track and random comments they want. This is aiming for a happy middle ground on these two.
There will be feedback forum for each walk. My PA will be dedicating time to review feedback, engage with people where helpful and then update the information. In about 1-2months I will also be encouraging people to submit photos they take on the walk, so that we can also use that information to update and enhance the notes. The goal here is that our community members get out and enjoy walks, easily share information and feedback, this then allow us will take care of the consistency and maintenance with that support. Perfect model? Nope, but far better then anything else I have seen I I think. I am hoping that it will push this 'industry' in the right direction.

Question: for how many walks (and for what grade of walks) do we want this level of detailed instruction available on the web?
I don't want to seem at all elitist, but when you see the mess some casual novices leave behind them, I really do wish they would stay at home! Very selfish of me, I know. Gone are the (bad) old days of 'burn, bash and bury'; today it seems more like 'burn, bash and throw away'. Grrr.
</rant>

hehe -- love the rant, understand and agree with the risks you point out. They are serious issues.
I am thinking somewhere between 5k-10k walks in AU NZ is my goal.

The initial focus on on class 1-4 walks that are signposted or well established/known walks. I think there is a place for some class 5/6, where there are already published in books or otherwise well known (Pindar Cave is a classic example). My focus is generally supporting people who want to go on a bushwalk, not so much 'bushwalkers'. I do have a longer term plan where I want to have a second tear of information available for 'known' grade 6 walkers. The idea is that I could electronic tap people like you on the shoulder and say, 'trusted off track walker'. This would give you access to the extra walks, but also give you the ability to tap your trusted friends on the shoulder. Not a perfect system, but we do need to accept that walks like this are being dumped onto websites with no care at the moment.

I also want to focus on 'great walks' (gee I hate that term), like https://www.overlandtrack.com/ (this website I built last year testing this approach). This allows an opportunity to not only provide ontrack navigation support but also better education on preparing well (Food, fitness, equipment and skills -- see the 'thrive on track' link). These walks are an interesting opportunity to provide this kind of education as people are excited and usually plan a long way out. That similar education information will become a core part of this site. It is not there yet, but the plan is that the 'spare' space on the PDF's will have extra content like LNT principles, general safety tips etc. The idea is to build people's understand (and therefor hopefully improve behaviour) overtime with good bitesized bits of non-technical information.

Thanks again, really good questions and points.

Hope that all makes sense

Matt

[Baeng72]

Your right, yhis is the way I am heading with this, well picked. The idea is to get information out there and ensure it is enhanced and maintained over time (quickly) but still kept simple. With my current tracknote website, every walk is written by a staff member walking it and documenting it. The other extreme are the many websites where users can contribute any GPS track and random comments they want. This is aiming for a happy middle ground on these two.
There will be feedback forum for each walk. My PA will be dedicating time to review feedback, engage with people where helpful and then update the information. In about 1-2months I will also be encouraging people to submit photos they take on the walk, so that we can also use that information to update and enhance the notes. The goal here is that our community members get out and enjoy walks, easily share information and feedback, this then allow us will take care of the consistency and maintenance with that support. Perfect model? Nope, but far better then anything else I have seen I I think. I am hoping that it will push this 'industry' in the right direction.

Don't Guthooks do something along this line?
I think users can post a public note along the lines of 'Waterfall hut is closed for reconstruction until May 2020' or 'Water source at Viking Saddle flowing Oct 2019'
Is that what you're thinking?

[wildwalks]

Don't Guthooks do something along this line?

Yes, most decent walking sites to something similar. People will add comments, this is live for everyone to see. These comments will be actively reviewed and the notes updated, more like how guidebooks are managed, but closer to realtime.
Closures by parks, fire etc will mostly be managed automagically through matching parks information to walk information.

[Sugden Magnet]

I have an option on the search results to display as a map (or the standard tiles).
https://prod1.maps.bushwalk.com/search/?word=&display=map
You can hover over for a brief summary, click for lots of details, then click again for the full page.

I am thinking this map will make up the bulk of the home page when we launch.

Does this work? any suggestions?

Yes, I far prefer walk sites whose landing page is a map than ones whose landing page is a list.

This zooming map in the callout is tremendously clever, but it also does make it look like that's all the information available. Is possible to have the entire callout act as a clickable link to the full walk page, not just the "More..." link at the bottom?

Map callout

I'm already in awe of the quality of the PDF layout.



One request: some walks have multiple optional side trips, like Marramarra Ridge to Smugglers Ridge (https://prod1.maps.bushwalk.com/j/qytej4/).

However, it takes a little inference to realise which green lines on the map correspond to side trips in the list below. Could there be:

1. Start and end markers for side trips on the map identify themselves? So instead of just being labelled Start, the callout below could be labelled Start (Side trip to Marramarra Creek Campsite).

Optional side track

2. Side trips in the text relate back to the map? Maybe make it so clicking on a side trip in the list scrolls back to the map with the side trip selected? Or maybe make it so clicking on any of the circular "turn map" images scrolls to the map with that point selected? I'm less certain of this, since it could be confusing to people who click or tap on those while just trying to read the directions.

[wildwalks]

Yes, I far prefer walk sites whose landing page is a map than ones whose landing page is a list.

Yes, agree. Will make the map a bit cleaner once I start getting more walks going through.
Working this weekend on a bunch of changes and getting walks migrating through (and improving disability access information).

This zooming map in the callout is tremendously clever, but it also does make it look like that's all the information available. Is possible to have the entire callout act as a clickable link to the full walk page, not just the "More..." link at the bottom?

Glad you like it Yes it felt like the best way to give a good sense of context to the location. Stupid me spent a day coding a solution that would do something similar in a video, then realised a much easier solution like this.
The whole div click -- yes I think so. That was the intention, but it does not work for some stupid reason, I am still trying to work out why. The more... link is there until I can solve the bug. It should be super easy, but it is proving challenging. The website is in AMP rather than plain HTML, to allow for much more raipd response on mobile devices, it is a bit painful at times for somethings like this.

I'm already in awe of the quality of the PDF layout.

hehe -- thanks. Yes it has taken fair bit of time. Still adding a few more features and improving the notes on these. It will also by multilingual in time

One request: some walks have multiple optional side trips, like Marramarra Ridge to Smugglers Ridge (https://prod1.maps.bushwalk.com/j/qytej4/).
However, it takes a little inference to realise which green lines on the map correspond to side trips in the list below. Could there be:
1. Start and end markers for side trips on the map identify themselves? So instead of just being labelled Start, the callout below could be labelled Start (Side trip to Marramarra Creek Campsite).

Ohh nice suggestion. Great idea. These start icons have bugged me a lot, I don't like them either but yet to come up with a good solution. I am thinking I will change the icon a bit for side trips and alternate route starts. But adding the extra text to the popup is a great way for people to learn quickly what it means - love it. Will add that soon.

2. Side trips in the text relate back to the map? Maybe make it so clicking on a side trip in the list scrolls back to the map with the side trip selected? Or maybe make it so clicking on any of the circular "turn map" images scrolls to the map with that point selected? I'm less certain of this, since it could be confusing to people who click or tap on those while just trying to read the directions.

Interesting idea. Currently the extra routes sit below the core route notes. This weekends update will break the core route and add the side trip notes inline (at the turn off point). Clicking on the map to scroll to notes (and visa versa) is an interesting idea. Seemes like maybe I need to have more information available in the map instead?? Not sure on this, I like the concept but I fear and you mention it may be confusing for most, but helpful for power users. Hum, will think about this more.

Thanks again

[wildwalks]

Just done a bunch of updates and bug fixes.
Based on feedback from this thread, here are some of the changes
1) Clicking on the walk summary from the map or list now opens the walk much more reliably (but have lost links to search for tags, that will come back later).
2) Added links from map to the tracknotes. I will work on been able to do the reverse, but that is actually a looooot of work, so will be a fair bit down the list. Also added new icons and text for sidetrips and Alternate route stating points
3) Added summary of key features (campsites, seats, huts, toilets etc) below grading table (will add to PDF in time). This gives a sense of the gap between each). This is part of a broader set of changes to work with the 'Naturally Accessible' framework to improves access for people with mobility impairment.
4) added a bunch of walks and a system to keep newly curated walks to be added easily
5) improved exports
6) Acknolgoment of country. Starting to add specific countries to each walk, otherwise, most are still generic acknowledgments.

WIP
* Big walks (using the Overland Track as an example I am working on a tweak to the system that will allow chunking of long walks into segments)
* More walks (this is my main focus for the next little while)
* App, is coming along. Working for smaller collections of walks, hope to launch with a series of walks by the end of year.

Keep the suggestions coming