When should a PLB be activated? [split]

[Mat Mason]

Under the right circumstances absolutely!!

Because we were wasted and trying to find out where Doogs was, maybe not.... but in an emergency, it beats setting off the PLB.

Not wanting to hijack this discussion but since you brought it up ILUVSWTAS, do you know of any guidelines that exist to indicate what type of emergency IS worth setting off the PLB? The AMSA website state "grave and imminent danger" (in the words of Jack Nicholson - is there any other kind?) Must life be 'hanging in the balance' and if not, where's the line drawn between frivolity and sufficient justification? Perhaps when one finds themselves clutching their space blanket they just know it's time to activate the PLB.

I have emailed the AMSA about this but have yet to receive a reply so does anybody know more?

Mat Mason

[ILUVSWTAS]

Under the right circumstances absolutely!!

Because we were wasted and trying to find out where Doogs was, maybe not.... but in an emergency, it beats setting off the PLB.

Not wanting to hijack this discussion but since you brought it up ILUVSWTAS, do you know of any guidelines that exist to indicate what type of emergency IS worth setting off the PLB? The AMSA website state "grave and imminent danger" (in the words of Jack Nicholson - is there any other kind?) Must life be 'hanging in the balance' and if not, where's the line drawn between frivolity and sufficient justification? Perhaps when one finds themselves clutching their space blanket they just know it's time to activate the PLB.

I have emailed the AMSA about this but have yet to receive a reply so does anybody know more?

Mat Mason

Had an interesting discussion about this in the HWC. I dont want to start a debate here, but I think there are other cases non life threatening where it's ok to use a PLB.

[tasadam]

This discussion deserves a topic of its own, so the above two posts have been split from the topic Emergency Space Blanket.

[ILUVSWTAS]

This discussion deserves a topic of its own, so the above two posts have been split from the topic Emergency Space Blanket.

Thanks Adam, hoped you'd do that....

Basically the HWC member told us if someone has a broken arm, unless there is bone sticking out, you should TRY to make them walk.. a broken finger, they should definately walk. Broken leg, yes activate the PLB.
One guy threw his back out on the Central Plateau a few years back and could not walk, so they set off the PLB. Another member had a stick thru his eye, not life threatening, but they set off a PLB due to the remotness of the location.

It really is impossible to say it's black and white, each situation requires different assessing.

[Mat Mason]

Good show ol' boy. I guess if I REALLY didn't want to hijack the space blanket discussion, I would have done that myself!

I will post the reply from the ASMA when I get it but in the mean time will watch this space with interest. The examples I gave in my email were:

"If a hiker falls and badly breaks an upper body bone when 8 hours walk away from the nearest communication point (vehicle, mobile phone service area, sat-phone etc) Theoretically, the hiker could walk out but depending on the level of pain or pain threshold, may risk further injury or shock by attempting to do so. If the hiker determines that the injury is neither life threatening and unlikely to result in any permanent damage, is it unreasonable to activate the PLB?

Another common example is where a hiker is immobilised by an injury but has a companion. Is it the expectation of emergency workers that an injured person be left alone for a lengthy time if in the opinion of the injured party and the companion, the injury is unlikely to result in permanent damage or death?"

Just to get member's thoughts rolling.

Mat Mason

[photohiker]

Expectations are one thing, realities are another.

Invariably, breaking a major limb involves shock. Breaking the limb may not be life threatening on its own (it could be if critical blood vessels are involved) but breaking a limb and going into shock is definitely a big, big, life threatening problem, especially if it happens out in the bush.

No good being a dead hero who didn't activate their PLB, is there?

[pancake]

"If a hiker falls and badly breaks an upper body bone when 8 hours walk away from the nearest communication point (vehicle, mobile phone service area, sat-phone etc) Theoretically, the hiker could walk out but depending on the level of pain or pain threshold, may risk further injury or shock by attempting to do so. If the hiker determines that the injury is neither life threatening and unlikely to result in any permanent damage, is it unreasonable to activate the PLB?

So in a nutshell: do there exist circumstances where there is an injury that is not life threatening and unlikely to result in any permanent damage, which it would be "reasonable" to pop a PLB? yes of course.
the 8 hours in the example is a bit sketchy - to a car that you can use to drive home? or to a ridge that has reception (that's still XX km from firetrail/transport?)
if your 'walk out speed' is so dramatically reduced due to the injury (and you have been smart and told someone where you are going and when to expect you back) and thus you know there are going to be SAR teams out and about before you get back, then pop it and save everyone the hassle. a few fit guys in their 20/30s might get 24 or more hours 'grace' period before SAR teams start to take the case seriously but if you have kiddies or elderly folks in the group you bet they will take overdue groups very seriously very quickly

a hiker is immobilised by an injury but has a companion. Is it the expectation of emergency workers that an injured person be left alone for a lengthy time if in the opinion of the injured party and the companion

gut response: immoblization is a very serious matter and I would never leave someone who is immobilized alone in the bush (if i had a PLB) - i take it we are talking about serious bush here, not 30mins walk to the car/reception. pop the PLB.
if anything is unreasonable in this situation it would be any expectation from emergency services/the public/the media that you should have left your immobilized friend alone in the bush for you to run off and seek help !!

thought response: your immobilized friend has to be extracted from the bush somehow. unless you have 50 buddies around and very pleasant terrain in front of you, your friend's coming out by chopper - may aswell make it sooner rather than later!



I see the confusion here is because of the "Distress beacons should only be used when there is a threat of grave and imminent danger" phrase on the AMSA website (http://beacons.amsa.gov.au/usage.html) as we all know the bush is a completely different beast to a marine vessel (shelter/resources/equipment/number of personel, etc.) and it's conditions of use should certainly be adjusted accordingly.
I hope whatever response you get from AMSA takes this into account but regardless of what they say, slow down and THINK using common sense first

[MartyGwynne]

In my way of thinking a PLB should be set off when ever you see fit to do so.
Now to justify that line of thinking.
1. Your group demographics - how old, able, or experienced are they and how many in the group (no groups smaller than one please).
2. Your level of training and expertise in handling the situation.
3. How far you are from help.
Once you have thought out all the above you can normally get to the answer of yes we set it off or no we don't.

I can recall a situation recently where a person set off the PLB as they did not know where they were, it was snowing heavily and they were getting very cold.
The police S&R walked in, found them and walked them out. No problems with setting off the PLB as they were happy to walk out a live person than a week later search for a person in rather worse condition.
Now if there were two people in that circumstance then maybe they would have been OK to camp it out and then continue with the trip and maybe not.
A group from my club deemed fit to set off the PLB (or it may have been in phoning 000) as one of the party had busted their shoulder and could not continue. Helicopter rescue resulted, no need to have been a martyr and suffer it out and possibly cause more damage.

I am sure someone or group has been through all of this and have some guidelines to go by.
I will check my bushwalking group's web site and see what they have on the subject.

Marty.

[Mat Mason]

Very interesting so far, and unexpected. Generally speaking, it seems my disinclination to involve Australian Maritime Safety Authority’s Australian Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) is not necessarily as strong as others'. Admittedly, if my ten year old son broke an arm badly enough for him to look up at me and say "Dad, I can't walk, it hurts too much" that beacon is coming out quicker than old west gun slinger can draw a six-shooter. But if it was me who was injured, or a companion who is also big and ugly enough to put up with some 'discomfort' for a 'bit', I'm not so sure.

Unlike dialling 000 or the local SES, I suspect that the resources put into play when a PLB is set off is on a different scale. Because of the 'worst case scenario' possibility, I believe the RCC is obliged to send in multiple aircraft in case one gets to the area 2 minutes quicker. Simultaneously, several vehicles from multiple sources might be dispatched for the same reason. Other contingency strategies might also be activated. I'm not sure how I would feel as the paramedics zip lined in to find me warm and comfortable, sipping a cuppa that my fit and healthly mate had just made for me, nursing a sprained ankle.

I realise the above scenario may be a tad facetious but I think people will get my point. It’s all very well to suggest the PLB owner must make a ‘considered’ decision based on their own stress level at the time but for some people I know, a situation that they believe warrants activation of their PLB may closely resemble the above scenario.

There is a case study on the AMSA website which is a fascinating read irrespective of your interest in this discussion and I know this is a very different scenario to a hiker on the Overland but I think it offers some insight into the scale I was referring to.
http://www.amsa.gov.au/Search_and_Rescu ... estudy.asp

[Azza]

Unlike dialling 000 or the local SES, I suspect that the resources put into play when a PLB is set off is on a different scale. Because of the 'worst case scenario' possibility, I believe the RCC is obliged to send in multiple aircraft in case one gets to the area 2 minutes quicker. Simultaneously, several vehicles from multiple sources might be dispatched for the same reason. Other contingency strategies might also be activated. I'm not sure how I would feel as the paramedics zip lined in to find me warm and comfortable, sipping a cuppa that my fit and healthly mate had just made for me, nursing a sprained ankle.

Speaking from experience I can tell you that is not necessarily the case at least not in Tassie and not for land based rescues.
In Tasmania it goes to the guy in charge of S&R and they decide how to react. Which may or may not involve aircraft, depending on their judgement call.
Because your details are registered with ASMA - the police / S&R will call your home and find out what you've been up to and make a decision based on that.

With the incident I was involved the injured individual was in close proximity to a forestry road behind a locked gate making access difficult- long story). The police made the call not to send the helicopter and instead sent the local cops to investigate and try to access the road. They also put an Ambulance on standby. The benefit of us activating the beacon meant that the medical help was ready and waiting. I imagine this changes depending on access and if you are somewhere remote you will get a helicopter.

What I take from this scenario is that they're not going to necessarily send the big guns in... just because you set off your PLB.
I think its great that we have these fantastic rescue services - but you shouldn't approach it like they're going to come charging over the hill and save you.
You need to be equipped and prepared to deal with the situation because you can't guarantee that help will be there instantly.

In this case it was told to us by the paramedics that if it had been last financial year we'd have got a helicopter... this year no money... don't expect a helicopter.

.

[wildwalks]

Unlike dialling 000 or the local SES, I suspect that the resources put into play when a PLB is set off is on a different scale.

Howdy
I have had this discussion with a few people at AMSA, and there formal line is "grave and imminent danger" but there 'i am a real person' line was "if you have significant concern for the welfare of someone and there is no other reasonable method of communications" - then flip that switch.

Always try 000 first, you should get a faster and more appropriate response. It is much better for the rescuers to know what they are coming into, and to be able to offer you advice where they can over the phone.

A stick in the eye are good example. They can lay on there back for hours and likely will not die any time soon. But they will not be walking out, this would be a very bad idea. The earlier this person gets proper medical help the much better the chance of saving their eye. Try comparing the cost of a chopper flight to the extra cost associated with the delay of treatment, and the chopper starts looking a very reasonable cost to pay (by the tax payers).
Sure there are plenty of stories of "when I was a kid I dragged my self through the snow with 3 broken arms and 12 broken toes". But every broken arm is different and the cost and availability of recuse is much better now. Also the additional overall benefit to the community for faster medical treatment is significant. You will often see choppers at road side car accidents, and transfer people between hospital because every minute can make a big difference.
We do need to remember that in remote places, medical aid may be delayed even in life threatening situations, for many reasons, and we need to be as well equipped as we can be to deal with what gets chucked or way.
I think common sense prevails here. Would a rescue agency give you a hard time for setting off your PLB in a remote area if someone had a stick in there eye, or a broken arm and was in significant pain? I doubt it. But do try other methods first, more info to the rescue agency means they can make better decisions and offer helpful advice.

Be safe

Matt

[ninjapuppet]

This information from you guys is absolute gold. I can certainly verify that Doctors, Specialists, Physiotherapist and MRI bills can easily add up more than a chopper evac if the medical condition calls for it.

Though, i'm confused about the billing from an interstate patient story, because I have also heard the same. I was of the thought that Australia and NZ had a deal whereby Australian Residents dont get charged in NZ, and vice versa. I actually copped a lot of crap from locals for our rescue not getting charged, but it was outside of my control. We had insurance in NZ and was prepared to pay for our chopper ride, but aurthorities wouldnt accept it. In my situation, I felt the insurance company should be liable.

[wildwalks]

I was of the thought that Australia and NZ had a deal whereby Australian Residents dont get charged in NZ, and vice versa.

It is an interesting question.
Although I can see a case for 'user pays', I think in countries that can afford it, the state should pay. We have seen this before with hospital care, that if people are worried about having to foot the bill then they are less likely to call for help and wait until things are much more desperate, when it ends up costing the state a lot more.
So generally richer countries will say they will foot the bill, and the media love to get the community fired up about it. We have had a few boat rescues which have caused significant complaints.
We need to consider the larger impact of such a policy not just worry about the cost of a few specific rescues.
Although, I will still always have travel insurance that covers medivac when in other countries. Not all countries provided monitor PLB's or provide S&R.

Where someone does something really stupid or causes false alarms on purpose then they should pay, but this is obviously rare.

A couple of other interesting thing I learned during my research
1) Most (something over 90%) of emergency beacon triggers in Australia are accidental. Usually found tracking at 100km/h in the boat trailer on the highway. So hence why the new digital system has the PLB registered so they will try to call you first before sending out the help. Keep you PLB well secured
2) Once you trigger a PLB in the bush, do not switch it off until directed. AMSA will assume the battery has gone flat and continue the search, but now blindly. If the person recovers, or you become un-lost then try calling AMSA and let the know all is good and they will then ask you to switch if off. If you can't make a call then let them find you, and say "oops sorry", It is better then them continuing to search for you. The great thing about these beacons is that they mostly remove the search from Search and rescue.

Matt

[tasadam]

I recall there is a topic here somewhere that created quite a bit of discussion and concern when the issue of having to pay for the rescue service was raised.

I can state with confirmed information that at the moment, in Tasmania the activation of a PLB for a rescue situation will not incur a bill, and there are currently no plans to introduce such a charge.

I thought I'd emphasise that.

Having said that, if I had to use the service and I was in a financial position to do so, I would certainly be making an appropriate donation to the rescue service. The current costs are approximately $5000 per flying hour for the rescue chopper. I do not know whether that charge includes the staffing of the chopper, or just the helicopter charge.

[tasadam]

2) Once you trigger a PLB in the bush, do not switch it off until directed.

I'm not so sure of this.
I was under the assumption that if you accidentally trigger your PLB, you should deactivate it as soon as possible and also contact AMSA ASAP as well.
Yes, found it...
http://beacons.amsa.gov.au/activation.html#whatif

What if a distress beacon is accidentally activated?

The most important thing to do is to switch off the beacon and notify RCC-Australia as soon as possible by calling 1800 641 792 to ensure a search and rescue operation is not commenced. There is no penalty for inadvertent activations.

[phan_TOM]

Seems a little bit ambiguous. If I'm going into the bush where theres mobile phone reception I doubt I'd take a PLB. If a distress beacon is recieved by AMSA and then it gets turned off 10 minutes later but they don't recieve a phone call clarifying the situation do they still send out the search party, I'm guessing they do? Maybe it refers to accidentally switching it on in your garage or something like that because if your hours/days from mobile reception the search has already begun... On the other hand I guess even if the search has commenced it is still better for it to be called off sooner than later by calling the relevant number

[Mat Mason]

This discussion has been unexpectedly helpful. It has changed my attitude toward early activation of the PLB, albeit slightly, and has at the very least been a welcome reassurance of my decision to purchase one.

Over an extended weekend just gone, my hiking party and I were delayed by heavier than expected rain and were losing light well before our first night’s destination. We were hours away from the nearest walking track let alone 4WD access and phone reception vanished before we even parked the car. Two of our party members in separate incidents slid metres down steep slopes, catching the rocky edge of a nasty drop. A river crossing in fading light also got pretty hairy. We found a tiny amount of flat ground by the river just as light disappeared and were forced to pitch tents in the dark and rain but avoided a night huddled under a tarp, waiting for day-light and the rain to stop. We were well equipped and while we depleted our first aid kit somewhat, we weren’t reaching for the PLB at any stage but throughout this harrowing afternoon and evening, the peace-of-mind gained by knowing the PLB was tucked in my pack transformed what would have been a frightening experience into a challenging adventure. This single experience justified the purchase for me.

Thank you all

Mat Mason

[tasadam]

Seems a little bit ambiguous.

Agreed. It certainly does not cover an event where it seemed like a rescue was required, but no longer is, for example.

So I decided to email them myself. I have asked -

Hello. My name is Adam and I am one of the administrators of the forum http://www.bushwalk.com

There is a discussion raising questions relating to the use of PLB’s, here - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7791

It’s easy to get misinformation in topics like this, as I have already seen, so I have added a quote from your website.

What I would like to know is whether you would like to join the discussion and perhaps answer the concerns directly? Failing that, if you would like to prepare a response and forward it to me, I could post it on your behalf.

I feel it vital that the public receive the correct information in relation to matters such as this, and your input would be very much appreciated.

Thank you and regards,

I received an automated response -

Thank-you for your new beacon registration, beacon renewal, registration enquiry or MMSI enquiry. Due to the high quantity of enquiries received your patience is appreciated. We will respond to your query as quickly as we can, though please be aware that currently responses are taking a few weeks.

If you have emailed through a renewal of registration we are currently responding to enquiries within a few weeks.

If you have emailed a new registration this has been catalogued in a searchable processing queue accessible immediately to our Search & Rescue officers. There is no time delay in accessing this information.

To register your beacon immediately and print a confirmation letter please register via the Online 406 Beacon Register http://www.beacons.amsa.gov.au

* To register a new beacon via the online 406 Beacon Register please follow these steps:
1. http://www.beacons.amsa.gov.au
2. Select the first login option 'I have a 406 Distress Beacon and have never registered a Distress Beacon with AMSA before'.
3. Agree to the disclaimer
4. Enter your email address
5. Enter your HEX ID
6. Create your password, security question and answer.
7. Enter your Name, Address, Platform and Emergency Contact details.

* To access your beacon registration account via the online 406 Beacon Register please follow these steps:
1. http://www.beacons.amsa.gov.au
2. Select the second login option 'I have already registered a 406 Distress Beacon via phone, post or fax with AMSA'.
3. Agree to the disclaimer
4. Enter the registered email address on the account 5. Enter a registered HEX ID from the account 6. Create your password, security question and answer.

Otherwise you are welcome to call our office during business hours Ph: 1800 406 406 to seek more immediate assistance.

Kind Regards,

If I hear anything, I'll let you know.

[Joel]

Interesting topic.
I've always thought that I would only call for a rescue if it was impossible to get myself out, but after an incident last year I have reconsidered that position.

I broke four bones in my right leg last October. I was about 3 km away from the car I guess, but about 400 vertical meters above it on the side of a cliff.
I self rescued, which involved rigging a sling around my neck to my right ankle and basically crab walking down the cliff and to my car. This took about 7 hours. I then drove 1 hour to the hospital.

This was really stupid.

By the time I got there my ankle was like a football and they couldn't find a pulse in my foot. When the doctors started looking worried I got a bit scared. When they got the ultra sound thing out and still couldn't get a pulse, I got really freaked out. it turned out that I didn't have to get my foot chopped off or anything, thank goodness, but the doctors thought I was a d#@khead when I told them the story.

They couldn't understand why I didn't call for help and I felt stupid for not asking for help. I also spent 3 weeks waiting for swelling to go down before I could have surgery.

I guess I'm just saying that you shouldn't wait for death to be on the doorstep before you send for help. That is why we have rescue services.

[tasadam]

Well put Joel, thanks for sharing.

[Tony]

This is a very interesting discussion, and it is great to read about some experiences.

Here is a link to a incident on a bushwalk with a group that I sometimes walk with, on this walk the leader broke his ankle, whilst they had a PLB they did not use it as there was phone contact, in the end they wished they had activated the PLB as it would have aided the rescue.

Tony

[Mat Mason]

This is a very interesting discussion, and it is great to read about some experiences.

Here is a link to a incident on a bushwalk with a group that I sometimes walk with, on this walk the leader broke his ankle, whilst they had a PLB they did not use it as there was phone contact, in the end they wished they had activated the PLB as it would have aided the rescue.

Tony

Thank you for that link Tony. That gives some terrific insight into what constitutes appropriate use and how in fact not activating the PLB can lead to greater difficulties than activating it. I’ve walked and climbed often around Camels Hump and would never have considered it remote enough to warrant even carrying a PLB. The story that your link takes us to proves how foolish it would be to own a PLB but not carry it because the walk was not “dangerous enough” for it.
I have received a response from Linda Berryman who is the manager of the AUSTRALIAN 406 MHz / MMSI DATABASE, PLANNING & BUSINESS SUPPORT EMERGENCY RESPONSE DIVISION. Her email is as follows:

“Thank-you for your enquiry on distress beacons.

Activation of a distress beacon is when you consider yourself in 'Grave & Imminent Danger'. There is no black or white answer to 'Grave & Imminent Danger' it’s your interpretation on your personal safety or life depending on the circumstances. If there are only two persons walking and one is injured then your best to stay together not separate. Distress Beacons have been activated by bushwalkers for different scenarios eg; snake bike, broken bones, heart attack, lost, fallen off a cliff, snowed in.

Activation of a distress beacon is a last resort option, meaning you have attempted all other means of verbal communication first. For example you may have a Mobile phone in coverage, Satellite phone, CB radio or a member of the walking group may be able to return to the vehicle in a short period of time and raise the alarm. We recommend you attempt all verbal communication options first as this is the quickest method to communicate what the problem is, identify what is the most appropriate resource required, provides you with comfort knowing that someone is on the way & approximate time, ultimately the quickest rescue. However, a distress beacon alert we receive in minutes, this is one way communication and the rescue can take a few hours.

In the event you have been unsuccessful with verbal communication methods and you activate the distress beacon then a Search & Rescue response will be coordinated by AMSA. If you have a GPS equipped PLB please ensure you position the beacon in a clear, open area and at the highest point (not under trees, not up a tree, not in a gully). Please ensure the aerial is vertical to allow maximum efficiency of detection of the transmitting signal. If the above points have been followed we should receive your distress alert within a few minutes and your position to within 120mtrs. If the beacon is registered we will attempt to call the owner and emergency contacts of whom should be able to validate your trip and personal details. Depending on the time of day, weather conditions and resource availability the search & response will vary. We will commence coordination immediately however the rescue can take a few hours. Therefore please maintain your survivability until we are on location. Once you observe rescue assets or persons in the area please use visual aids to pinpoint your location.

The cost of the rescue is covered by the Federal Government (Taxes). If the activation of the beacon is determined to be malicious the Police will prosecute and seek all expenses incurred. The only thing not covered is Ambulance cover.

For further assistance please contact me.”

So the official response is probably as helpful as they can be but still not very clear. Perhaps forums like this with inputs from experienced bushwalkers is the best way for less experienced people like myself to get the information necessary to make an informed and sensible decision if and when the time comes.
Mat Mason

[tasadam]

A quick note to let you know that I received the same response in an email today, again with an invitation to contact the sender directly if there are further questions.
So, if anyone has further specific questions, feel free to post them here and I will direct them via email to the contact that responded to Mat and myself.

[north-north-west]

Therefore please maintain your survivability until we are on location.

That's a lovely bit of management-speak, but what does it really mean: 'Please don't die until we get there'?

[Roniellay]

Hi Tasadam,

can you please confirm that there are really no charges for legitimate helicopter rescue of a hiker in Tasmania after activating personal locator beacon?
Is there any source that can clarify that?
The information on the net are quite confusing...
We have a regular medibank insurance (we are from overseas) which I doubt would cove this emergency, so need to make sure that there are no fees for calling the rescue in remote areas...
Otherwise I would have to look for some appropriate travel insurance covering this...
Thank you!
Jana

[tasadam]

Hi Tasadam,

can you please confirm that there are really no charges for legitimate helicopter rescue of a hiker in Tasmania after activating personal locator beacon?
Is there any source that can clarify that?
The information on the net are quite confusing...
We have a regular medibank insurance (we are from overseas) which I doubt would cove this emergency, so need to make sure that there are no fees for calling the rescue in remote areas...
Otherwise I would have to look for some appropriate travel insurance covering this...
Thank you!
Jana

viewtopic.php?p=152263#p152263

Note that the quoted reply is specific to Tasmania.

I have also emailed him making him aware of that post, I will update if I receive any further information.

But I say again, do not delay rescue (if it's really needed) because of the fear of cost - that move can be life threatening.

[Kinsayder]

Interesting topic.
I've always thought that I would only call for a rescue if it was impossible to get myself out, but after an incident last year I have reconsidered that position.

I broke four bones in my right leg last October. I was about 3 km away from the car I guess, but about 400 vertical meters above it on the side of a cliff.
I self rescued, which involved rigging a sling around my neck to my right ankle and basically crab walking down the cliff and to my car. This took about 7 hours. I then drove 1 hour to the hospital.

This was really stupid.

By the time I got there my ankle was like a football and they couldn't find a pulse in my foot. When the doctors started looking worried I got a bit scared. When they got the ultra sound thing out and still couldn't get a pulse, I got really freaked out. it turned out that I didn't have to get my foot chopped off or anything, thank goodness, but the doctors thought I was a d#@khead when I told them the story.

They couldn't understand why I didn't call for help and I felt stupid for not asking for help. I also spent 3 weeks waiting for swelling to go down before I could have surgery.

I guess I'm just saying that you shouldn't wait for death to be on the doorstep before you send for help. That is why we have rescue services.

Jesus, that must have been a tough time. I'm sure you learnt a lot from it (aside from the value of calling for help when it's plainly needed). I hope your leg is all right now too.

Great thread, by the way.

[Mervyn]

Adam

This post is a useful read. I thought it might be interesting to hear of examples where walkers had used the PLB, what circumstances, the situation, how far from the car and what happened, how long before they got a response. NOT to judge them or the emergency staff more to know what to expect in real terms if an emergency occurs. There is one example from Azza mentioned above where they activated the PLB and got vehicle response to the call, all seems fine if you are near a vehicle track. How long did it take? We all walk in a variety of conditions, sometimes on fire trails where a 4WD could complete a rescue (although it might be a rough trip in a 4WD back to the bitumen), sometimes on walking tracks not accessible to vehicles and sometimes by bush bashing. Like all of you I have stepped inches (or centimetres) from a black snake, walked on slippery rock ledges, slipped when crossing a creek and climbed up steepish slippery rock inclines. Been cut by sharp stones, sticks and plants. Pulled out ticks, been bitten by monster ants and removed leeches (some people can have an allergic reaction to these creatures). Accidents can happen. I always carry a PLB. If you activate the PLB what happens and what can we expect? You might like to start a new thread for this! Also they will ring my wife at home, she will go into a panic!!!!

Curious.
Mervyn

[neilmny]

Thanks for bringing this thread back to the top Mervyn.
It has been well worth reading and I now have the accidental activation phone number 1800 641 792 on my mobile.

It is clear that "grave and imminent danger" is open to your personal interpretation and having decided your are in grave and imminent danger you should try 000 and other quicker methods to get help first.

I interpret the note "Therefore please maintain your survivability until we are on location." to mean don't pop the beacon and kick back to wait but be proactive, make shelter and protect your party as best as possible while you wait possibly for several hours.

Mobile phone coverage is at best dodgy away from the larger population and resort areas so I carry my beacon any time I am in the bush.

A couple of stories Mervyn.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9571&p=131837&hilit=plb+activation#p131837
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12724&p=168278&hilit=plb+activation#p168467
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=12751&p=168470&hilit=plb+activation#p168470

[quicky]

As someone who dabbles in/deals with this topic/sort of thing very regularly in various ways, it is either easier, cheaper and/or safer to allow people/hikers/experienced/inexperienced or whatever the scope for critical thinking and freedom to make autonomous or group/collective 'in the moment' decisions, based on their immediate and emergent circumstances - right, wrong or otherwise.

We live in a world of over-triage for the sole purpose of catering for that very small percentage of unexpected outcomes - the outliers (so to speak) that 'don't quite fit' at both ends of the confidence interval.

Examples are great, stories are great, discussions are great, but when you follow this particular conversation (whether in a clinical, philosophical or even social context) through to conclusion, you will find EVERY TIME their should be no lists, no criteria, no cut-off's, otherwise people will get hurt and remain hurt...or dead.

...just sayin'.