Experiences of Recreational hunting in national parks?

[Strider]

Even if you could or all of the sambar hunters shoot all of the feral animals you see it would not make one little bit if difference to the feral animal populations.

If you shoot ALL of them, then they are ALL gone.

I think there is some confusion here. Tony specifically said "all of the feral animals you see", not "all the feral animals in the bush". I think that what he was getting at was that if you were to shoot all the ferals you saw, there would still be a lot left that you didn't see - perhaps so many still left that it wouldn't have made much difference to the overall population, at least in the long term.

My bad! Agree totally!

[Son of a Beach]

Like it or not seasonal deer hunting in portions of the ANP has provided a method of control on the sambar deer numbers for 25 years or so....the ONLY means of control actually.

You are correct when you say the the parks authorities are not doing anything much about control of these feral species. However, I disagree that hunters are doing anything to control them either. Taking a few (or even a large number) of animals does not necessarily relate to controlling their numbers. Most feral species are very good at breeding faster than they can be controlled. That's why they are so difficult to control.

It might (debateably) be argued that hunters are attempting to control the species, but I doubt that they would be actually in control of their numbers on an ongoing basis. There would need to be some sort of published research to convince people that such hunting was actually controlling the numbers.

Note that I am a hunter (I usually hunt for wallaby, sometimes rabbits, occasionally fallow deer - all in Tasmania - for meat to feed my family). So I have no problems with firearms and hunting. I'm just attempting to clarify some of the arguments that don't quite make sense to me. I don't particularly agree with opening up national parks to recreational hunting in places where it is not already being done, and I don't believe that doing so would make any real difference to the feral populations there (including deer - even as a hunter I regard them as feral, as I do for trout).

[Tony]

Hi sambar358,

The reason the feral animal control is being debated is because the gun/hunting lobbies are using feral animal control as their number one excuse for allowing hunting in NSW National Parks, if you read the available literature into feral pest control it becomes very clear that the hunting lobbies claim is just spin, the problem is far to big for a few recreational hunters to have any impact, unfortunately I think many hunters actually believe the hunting lobby propaganda.

I have not grown up with guns or hunting, I have nothing to do with guns or hunting and I do not want anything to do with guns or hunting and I do not see why I have to have anything to do with guns or hunting, my interest is bushwalking and I want to bushwalk without the presence of guns or the fear of being hit by a bullet. Why should I not not be allowed to walk in a National Park in peace, I should be able go bushwalking without seeing hunters with guns, I should be able go bushwalking without hearing guns shots around me and I should be able go bushwalking without fear of being hit by a bullet. BTW, only a few days ago a hunter was shot in state forest in Victoria.

In NSW the hunting lobby already have a lot of areas where they can hunt, far larger than the total area of Victoria, why they want access to the National Parks is bit of mystery.

I suspect that very few walkers would have had an encounter with a deer hunter while they have been out in the ANP....not some yobs at a campsite behaving badly...anyone can do that.....but someone off for a walk and actually meeting a hunter out in the bush or maybe hearing a shot being fired...again out in the bush. So who's met a real deer hunter out in the bush in the ANP actually hunting or going to hunt/coming back from a hunt. I'd be interested to hear about this aspect of it because from the other side of the fence I have met very few walkers (probably 6 to 8 in total) in 20+ years of hunting sambar in the ANP.

Maybe the reason why you meet so few bushwalkers while you are hunting is that they avoid the areas while hunting is going on, I would.

One thing most of the critics of hunting seem to miss (or don't like to acknowledge) is that recreational hunting of sambar in the ANP has taken a lot of animals out of the Park over the last 20 years

If recreational hunting of sambar deer in Victoria is so successful as you claim, why are sambar deer numbers in Victoria increasing.

Feral horses....now anyone who's walked, fished or driven thru country that has a good population of brumbies should know what environmental damage really looks like....large areas pugged-up, well-trodden trails throughout the bush inviting (and usually causing) erosion, competing heavily for feed with our native animals....all this yet the feral horse seems to be viewed in a somewhat different light & an icon almost to some.

I could not agree more with you on this point, I had noticed that the Shooters & Fishers Party, Game Council of NSW, and the SSAA have all avoided the feral horse issue. BTW, on the weekend I had a discussion with an Ecologist friend who has worked in invasive species field and he pointed out that feral horses maybe one species that recreational hunting might be able to have some impact on numbers.

I expect that the NSW state government will follow a similar process of public consultation and everyone (both pro and anti hunting) will have the opportunity to put forward their views. There will be no "behind closed door deals done".....the issue of National Parks anywhere is far too sensitive for that & I expect that the process will be fair, transparent and done in a way that allows all fair and equitable access to the process.

I have to laugh at this one, no "behind closed door deals done"..... ha ha ha, I am not sure what planet you are on, the whole hunting in NSW National Parks is a dirty, sneaky behind closed door deal, politics is about behind closed door deals and I expect this is only the start of the behind closed door deals that the NSW Government will do in the future.

One thing is for sure, this issue has mobilised many small and big organizations who are opposed to hunting in NSW National Parks, a sleeping giant has started to stir.

Tony

[forest]

I have to laugh at this one, no "behind closed door deals done"..... ha ha ha, I am not sure what planet you are on, the whole hunting in NSW National Parks is a dirty, sneaky behind closed door deal, politics is about behind closed door deals and I expect this is only the start of the behind closed door deals that the NSW Government will do in the future.

Yep, this one stinks BAD.

Nothing transparent here. It was a closed door, 1am deal with a minority party to seal the sale of state owned power stations.

[Son of a Beach]

Hi sambar358,

This debate is about hunting in NSW National Parks not the merits of sambar hunting in Victoria.

Just to clarify, there is another topic that is about hunting in NSW National Parks. This topic is actually about experiences of recreational hunting in any National Parks, which by definition includes sambar hunting in Victoria (as it is not currently permitted in NSW Nat. Parks).

Notes from a Moderation Perspective: The discussion of this topic has drifted a lot from the original post of the topic, and I'm not sure that I would be able to split/merge it in a useful way. It has ended up including a lot of discussion that really should belong in the NSW-proposal-specific topic.

[Pteropus]

I have to laugh at this one, no "behind closed door deals done"..... ha ha ha, I am not sure what planet you are on, the whole hunting in NSW National Parks is a dirty, sneaky behind closed door deal, politics is about behind closed door deals and I expect this is only the start of the behind closed door deals that the NSW Government will do in the future.

Yep, this one stinks BAD.

Nothing transparent here. It was a closed door, 1am deal with a minority party to seal the sale of state owned power stations.

Sadly this is true. And, off topic, in a timely move that coincides with the sell off of power stations, the price of electricity is going to rise in NSW -> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-13/p ... se/4068266

Since this topic is really about experiences of recreational hunting in National Parks, I might as well share my own. Many years ago I was hiking in Wollemi NP with a mate and we came across two young blokes walking up the track with long hunting knives that were out of their scabbards. They asked us if we had seen the pig they were hunting, but we hadn't seen any pigs. Needless to say, we got out of there pretty fast. It was more than a little confronting, coming across young fellas with big ef-off hunting knives that were in their hands, in a National Park.

Another time I have been to the Pilliga State Forest and have seen road signs shot through with bullet holes and shell casings all around the camp sites. That was in a place where hunting was already legal but it reinforces my view that this will go on in NPs too. I have met a fair few hunters, particularly ones on private property in Qld, and they are always a mixed bunch, some who seem to just want to talk guns and killing and take photos of themselves with dead pigs, and other hunters who are more conservative and enjoy pitting themselves against a wild animal but don't brag too much. I have even met someone whose job included feral animal control but did not actually enjoy the killing of the animals. I have also met professional roo shooters too, and for most part they seem to take their job seriously.

As far as sambar deer hunting in Victoria goes, I get the feeling that they are the latter type of hunter and are responsible in fire arm safety and passionate about what they do. Everything that sambar358 has said leads me t believe he has the utmost respect for his prey and takes pride in his hunting. That won't change my mind that hunting should be allowed in NSW National Parks or that hunting will control feral species.

[Tony]

Hi SOAB,

sorry, you are right I will correct my post.

Thanks

Tony

[sambar358]

Some interesting discussion from everyone and still nice and polite too....good effort.

I'm not involved in this discussion to convert anyone over the the merits of deer hunting in NP's....more-so to provide a hunters perspective on this.....and possibly by default get a few to see it from another perspective. I don't need to convince any Victorian government agency about the merits of hunting sambar in the ANP as we have been doing it legally for 20+ years and after the current round of discussions re the sambar population issue I expect more areas of the ANP currently closed to sambar hunting to be signficicantly expanded. So our DSE & PV departments (alebeit some within probably reluctantly) do recognise seasonal sambar hunting as providing a level of control that is beyond their ability and budgetary scope.

One thing that I haven't mentioned but may have alluded to is that the sambar is a very challenging animal to hunt....both the animal itself as genetically is has evolved with the Tiger as its major predator so as a species it is very used to being hunted and secondly the country which they inhabit which also provides great physical challenges. And for most of us that is why we hunt the sambar.....certainly not for the killing alone. New-chum sambar hunters usually have to serve a long "apprenticeship" and it often takes several years to master the basic skills of hunting sambar and actually take a deer. Many new sambar hunters may not even SEE a deer in the first couple of years despite a probably abundance of them where they are hunting. Some of these new hunters can become disheartened by their lack of success and do one of two things.....give it away and take up somehting more instantly gratifying...or stick at it and keep on going out there and learning. I mention this because is counters the "government paid hunter" agrument in that a squad of DSE or PV paid hunters would do a better, more efficient and more manageable job on the sambar. But the facts are that there is far far more to hunting sambar successfully than giving someone off the street a rifle, some ammo and some basic instruction and pointing them in the direction of the mountains and hoping that they'll shoot a mountain of sambar....this would largely be a total waste of time, money and resources. The Victorian government already has a very signifcant (27000 at the last count) "army" of active deer hunters....and we all do it for FREE.

Tony : "Maybe the reason why you meet so few bushwalkers while you are hunting is that they avoid the areas while hunting is going on, I would". I wouldn't be too sure about that Tony....I spend quite a bit of time hunting around very popular walking areas but the significant factor here is not so much that we are there but really that we are then when most other user numbers are quite low to non-existant. The sambar hunting season in the ANP is from Feb 15 - Dec 15 each year but in reality most of the hunting effort starts later : May onwards when the weather cools and conditions are more favourable (no snakes & flies and the bush is quieter and damper)...by late October most sambar hunters are finished as the weather warms and we get the fly rod out. Generally we prefer it "cold wet and miserable".....many other user groups don't, so in essence in general terms we are about mostly when others are not.....and I think that this is a major contributing factor as to why as a group we seldome cross paths. The walkers who I have met were generally not aware that sambar hunting was a permitted activity (largely due to poor or misleading signage and no mention of it on most PV visitor information mediums) and even some PV field staff I've talked to were totally unaware of this also....so there are some PR issues that could be better addressed here to our mutual benefit I think. Cheers

sambar358

[Tony]

Tony wrote:The notion that shooting one or two foxes helps native wildlife is a total MYTH, typical hunting lobby propaganda.


I will never agree with that comment. No stat's or reports are required for me. Every single feral cat of fox does untold damage to our native wildlife.
Even way understating that a fox kills say, 30 native animals a year. Is leaving that fox out there a good thing eh ??
I think not and I'll gladly pull the trigger everytime knowing I'm saving a few of our small natives.
Fine to say every fox will be replaced by 6 etc. Bullocks poo I call that and untrue.

Hi Forest,

I would be interested to read any information backing your views. I suggest you might have a read of this PestSmart: Foxes this information is from scientist who study the invasive animals problem in Australia, I found the information on the failure of bounty schemes very interesting and the 'Case Study: coordinated fox shooting program' is also interesting. My thinking is that if a bounty scheme has no impact how can recreational hunting have any impact. (see chart below) The more recent Victorian fox bounty scheme was abandon because it failed. One paper I read mentioned studies have shown that fox populations can withstand an annual cull of up to 65% before numbers will drop.

I am not against recreational hunting and I am all for reducing the number of feral pasts in Australia.

If the recreational hunting program in NSW State Forest was successful in reducing feral and game populations in NSW State Forest (which it is clearly not), then I might have some support for closing national Parks to the other users for a short time each year for for feral pest control, But as all of the scientific literature I have read clearly states that recreational hunting does not have any impact on feral pests numbers then I see no reason that recreational hunting should be allowed in NSW National Parks. I am for proper professional feral pest control programs.

Tony

Fox Bounty chart.jpg (74.29 KiB) Viewed 13387 times

[sambar358]

Pteropus : Just one comment in regard to the differences between a hunter "stopping at one" in order to remove the carcass from the bush and the "shoot it and leave it" methods of the true culler. You may not be aware but sambar hunters down here have been the subject of some criticism in the Weekly Times (a state rural newspaper) from several anti-sambar campaigning individuals such as Bill Peel & Roger Bilney for the potential contribution (in their view) that sambar hunters are making to the growing wild dog problem by leaving parts of our sambar kills in the bush for the wild dogs to feed on.

So ATM we are arguing the case against mandating for full-carcass recovery by deer hunters of their kills solely on these (unsupported by any science) grounds. I don't expect that this will ever happen but it does provide a different slant on this subject : If deer hunters are being (rightly or otherwise) villified for this practice in relation to the wild dog problem in rural areas how would this sit with any "shoot them and leave them to rot" culling initiatives by Government agencies ? Surely if we as deer hunters must practice full carcass recovery to keep the wild dogs lean and mean and then any feral animal culling in these areas should also comply with the same requirements....or do wild dogs just feed on recreational deer hunter kills and any "government sponsored carcasses" are to be left alone ! So just something to mull on......there are always rumbling going on in recent times about the sambar.....but as yet no one is coming up with any real workable solutions.

Oh.....most of my input on this thread has been about my efforts and observations on sambar in the ANP simply because this thread has been about the ANP. I might hunt sambar in the ANP for 10-12 days a year....mostly solo backpacking into remote spots for a week or so durng the winter. For the other 50 or so days a year that I have hunted sambar for the past 40 years I hunt both on public land in all the major catchment of Gippsland & East Gippsland and quite a number of private properties...so my knowledge base on sambar is certainly not resticted to the ANP but is rather formed from my experience and obsrvations across a wide slice of the mountains and foothills of eastern Victoria over a pretty fair amount of time. Cheers

sambar358

[Pteropus]

...I mention this because is counters the "government paid hunter" agrument in that a squad of DSE or PV paid hunters would do a better, more efficient and more manageable job on the sambar. But the facts are that there is far far more to hunting sambar successfully than giving someone off the street a rifle, some ammo and some basic instruction and pointing them in the direction of the mountains and hoping that they'll shoot a mountain of sambar....this would largely be a total waste of time, money and resources. The Victorian government already has a very signifcant (27000 at the last count) "army" of active deer hunters....and we all do it for FREE.

True, but I think if Parks Victoria employed ten or so of these hunters full time, to spend weeks in an area culling deer with the express purpose of controlling the population, they would have an impact. But yes, the Victorian Government does have a 27 000+ army of active deer hunters...and it is not only free for them but they make money off them too!

By the way, when I was younger I used to stalk rusa deer in the Royal National Park, just to see how close I could get (i still do that with other animals too, and I think the stalking of animals is in our genes too, since we can't remove our own instincts that developed over millions of years in one or two generations). I have even got close enough that I could touch them, but I wasn't into photography back then so don't have the pictures to prove it. Rusa deer are very closely related sambar and also evolved with the Sumatran tiger. Anyhow, this was just a story to add, because I do get the whole stalking of wild animals in the bush thing. And I guess it was hunting in a way, just without the end product of a dead animal. I still do this sort of thing with my camera...all this talk of hunting elusive sambar kind of makes me want to rise to the challenge! But I will take a photo instead...

[Pteropus]

You may not be aware but sambar hunters down here have been the subject of some criticism in the Weekly Times (a state rural newspaper) from several anti-sambar campaigning individuals such as Bill Peel & Roger Bilney for the potential contribution (in their view) that sambar hunters are making to the growing wild dog problem by leaving parts of our sambar kills in the bush for the wild dogs to feed on.

So ATM we are arguing the case against mandating for full-carcass recovery by deer hunters of their kills solely on these (unsupported by any science) grounds. I don't expect that this will ever happen but it does provide a different slant on this subject : If deer hunters are being (rightly or otherwise) villified for this practice in relation to the wild dog problem in rural areas how would this sit with any "shoot them and leave them to rot" culling initiatives by Government agencies ? Surely if we as deer hunters must practice full carcass recovery to keep the wild dogs lean and mean and then any feral animal culling in these areas should also comply with the same requirements....or do wild dogs just feed on recreational deer hunter kills and any "government sponsored carcasses" are to be left alone ! So just something to mull on......there are always rumbling going on in recent times about the sambar.....but as yet no one is coming up with any real workable solutions.

Yes, I have heard people argue that carcasses will lead to wild dog numbers growing etc. I don't really agree because wild dogs are probably taking young deer too and would only supplement their food resources with the odd scavenged carcass here and there. Dogs scavenge but it is also in their instinct to hunt. That is one reason why baiting programmes are not completely successful. One might even argue that allowing dog populations to grow could be used to control deer. So I agree that it is unfair to make recreational hunters remove all carcasses but on the other hand arguing that the authorities go in and cull to their hearts content.

Oh.....most of my input on this thread has been about my efforts and observations on sambar in the ANP simply because this thread has been about the ANP. I might hunt sambar in the ANP for 10-12 days a year....mostly solo backpacking into remote spots for a week or so during the winter. For the other 50 or so days a year that I have hunted sambar for the past 40 years I hunt both on public land in all the major catchment of Gippsland & East Gippsland and quite a number of private properties...so my knowledge base on sambar is certainly not restricted to the ANP but is rather formed from my experience and observations across a wide slice of the mountains and foothills of eastern Victoria over a pretty fair amount of time. Cheers sambar358

Actually, from a bushwalking point of view, this is interesting and perhaps you can contribute to the equipment section of the forum as you must have a lot of experience in remote areas and cold climates? I imagine you would have to go in pretty light weight if you carried a rifle, ammunition, supplies, cold weather gear AND expected to lug a whole deer out with you at the end!

[Moondog55]

Looks like my last post either went West or was deleted.

On the subject tho of interaction between deer hunters and bushwalkers the only walkers I ever met when hunting ( I was road walking back to my car at the time ) were on the older side of 40 at the time, and were actually very interested in my experience and were unaware that we actually had deer in Australia.

[Moondog55]

Pteropus removing carcasse meat is one of the prime arguments in favour of bring the Devil back to the mainland in my opinion, but that is a little outside of the topic of the original post.

[Tony]

To those who might be interested, this very interesting letter was published in my local newspaper this morning. Nice to see some scientist starting to discuss the issue.

Canberra Times letters to the Editor 14-06-2012

IMG_5502.jpg (142.53 KiB) Viewed 13348 times

This letter was published in the Daily Telegraph yesterday.

Daily Telegraph letters to the Editor 13-06-2012

Telegraph feral letter.jpg (101.42 KiB) Viewed 13348 times

Tony

[Pteropus]

Pteropus removing carcasse meat is one of the prime arguments in favour of bring the Devil back to the mainland in my opinion, but that is a little outside of the topic of the original post.

The problem there is that devils are also a predator and could possibly cause further declines in species that are already hunted by cats, foxes and other small predators, because they have not had to deal with devils for thousands of years. But yes, another topic for elsewhere....

[forest]

Nice to see some scientist starting to discuss the issue.

Great a scientest suggesting the use of toxic pig bait's

Ah.... I think we would all agree baiting has been proven to be very bad since moving forward from the 80's.

I know the baits work well but they also impact heavily on a lot of other non target species.

I don't support the game councils plan, but if it's between 1080 and the GC... Sorry I'll swing my vote for the dreaded GC.

[Moondog55]

Pteropus I was under the impression that tassie devils were scavengers only, went extinct on the mainland very recently ( 3-6k years ago but I cannot now find the reference) so it would not class as anything but a return to their normal range. Would be nice to see some come back.
Tim Flannery did a paper on this a while ago, I think our native animals are quite able to deal with the re-introduction of native predators

[forest]

went extinct on the mainland very recently

Not really on topic but shhh, I know where there are some near me that they have been re-introduced.....

I'm sworn to secrecy but they aren't too far from home.....

[sambar358]

Pteropus....actually I've always been a keen wildlife & landscape photographer and some of my most prized images are of wild sambar taken while off on my hunting trips....and a full SD card of sambar images is a whole lot lighter to lug than a 50kg back leg....but I do plenty of that too. Not sure if I can post images on this thread....but if i can I'll put a few up.

My BP kit is probably similar to yours for winter....I have a couple of Macpac 75 & 90L packs....a Canyon and a Cascade, I use a WE Second Arrow tent complimented by a 10X10 sil-nylon flysheet to keep my gear out of the weather. I have a Fairydown Everest -20 bag, use an Exped Downmat 7 to sleep on and I cook on a Coleman Peak 1 shellite stove. I normally don't have a fire as it tends to spook the deer. Food is the usual hi-yield stuff...energy bars, mixed nuts and dried fruit, one Back-Country DH meal pack a day and plenty of unsweetened black tea. Like most I'd think I carry-out my rubbish and don't attempt to burn it or bury it. My winter clothing is probably a bit different in color (mostly camo) but good quality fleece, wool or poly thermals, good gloves, gaiters, a beanie and a water-proof shell jacket. I carry a GME PLB for a emergency last resort back-up, a small emergency kit for medical issues, a Magellan 600 GPS and a back-up topo map and silva compass for navigation if needed. Lenser H7 headtorch for around camp and walk-backs in the dark and that's probably about it apart from my boots....Scarpa Sl's or Meindl Island Pros at the moment and high quality socks of course...'gotta look after those feet. So likely much the same gear as anyone else trudging the mountains in winter....plus my rifle, a knife and a few bullets of course. I recall coming back from a solo 6 dayer last winter....a good long walk into some great remote country....saw a few but no chance of any shots and on the drive home I went to ring the missus and tell her I was still in the land of the living and discovered that I had lost my voice ! When I thought about it I couldn't recall actually speaking at all during that trip....lots of thinking but no real utterances....but I did have a bit of a sore throat for most of that trip ! Funny that....but I think the signicance of it was a bit lost on the wife.

Normally for a week out I can get things down to about 25kg without water. But if I shoot one this then means multiple trips out to the truck.....at least 2 but sometimes 3 to get the venison out. What we have with a dead 300+kg sambar stag on the deck is a significant amount of venison....2 back legs at 35kg or sometimes more each, a pair of backstraps a metre long each weighing 10kg or so, a couple of front legs (depending on bullet damage) at 20kg's each then probably 10kg of bits & pieces off the rest of the carcass usually around the neck region. Most serious hunters I know would regard this as what should normally be removed from the bush.....then of course it it's a trophy stag with a good set of antlers we have an extra 30kg or so of head-skin and horns ! On plenty of occasions on BP trips maybe 10ks or so from the truck I have shot one on the first or second day and then taken the rest of the week to get it out of the bush....going back for the final time to get my tent & kit. Now you know why I only shoot one at a time....LOL ! Cheers

sambar358

[Pteropus]

Pteropus I was under the impression that tassie devils were scavengers only, went extinct on the mainland very recently ( 3-6k years ago but I cannot now find the reference) so it would not class as anything but a return to their normal range. Would be nice to see some come back.
Tim Flannery did a paper on this a while ago, I think our native animals are quite able to deal with the re-introduction of native predators

Devils are both predators and scavengers. THey are Tassie's largest native predator since the Thylacine went extinct. They have some experience in hunting in NPs too I don't know much about their extinction on the mainland..but they may not be around much longer in Tas if the tumor has its way...

Pteropus....actually I've always been a keen wildlife & landscape photographer and some of my most prized images are of wild sambar taken while off on my hunting trips....and a full SD card of sambar images is a whole lot lighter to lug than a 50kg back leg....but I do plenty of that too. Not sure if I can post images on this thread....but if i can I'll put a few up.

I don't see why you couldn't put a pic or two up. It is your experence of recreational hunting in a National Park after all. I don't think posting a pic would be off topic?

[sambar358]

As I've said to Pteropus : as well as sambar hunting I enjoy the phography aspect of sambar and the challenge of getting close-enough for a good pic or two....ideally about 25m or so. While it doesn't happen all that often sometimes especially in the more remote locations you get lucky on occasions when the wind is right and a slow and careful approach gives some success. So here's a few images of the sambar from hand held cameras....and the final one from one of my home-made game cameras showing clear evidence of a young male sambar with a missing right ear...clear evidence to me that he has survived a wild dog attack when he was younger. So for those who have walked the ANP and maybe seen some deer tracks or been "honked at" by something big in the bushes ....this what it was. Cheers

sambar358

Mature sambar hinds...always alert :



A curious juvenile 3 or 4 months old :


Stags seem quite difficult to get images of : very alert on most occasions :




A trail camera image of a yearling male sambar that most likely was "lugged" by wild dogs as a youngster :

[Moondog55]

Nice pictures.
While I'm posting there are folk on here who regard 25kilos as a huge pack weight, I take it you buy good gear and replace only when needed, which is why my packs are pretty heavy too.
Just out of curiosity, natural camo or blaze?

[sambar358]

Moondog...I've always bought good gear and in the long run it is cheaper and more reliable too. I still have my original Fairydown Everest bag that I bought in NZ in '84...still going strong but it could do with a wash...maybe next year ! I've worn-out one Macpac Minaret (the floor went) after 20 years and a few thermarests but in general terms I've had good reliable service from all my gear. Like most I guess I've bought, tried and sold-off a mountain of stuff over the years to get a good reliable and effective BP kit....many keen deer hunters are addicted gear junkies just like bushwalkers too !

I don't mind 25kg's in a pack it's what I'll carry-out that will sometimes worry me....but I'm 6'2" and while "older" I can still lug that anywhere across country....I just do it a tad slower these days. As hunters where a bit different to multi-day walkers who go in with a certain weight on then come out with less after the food is consumed etc. We try to go in at a reasoable weight but know that if we shoot one then coming out is going to be a whole lot of hurt ! It's when the pack is full of meat and you have to crawl into it on the ground, do a tortoise impression then a press to the vertical that it tends to give the knees a bit of a work-out. Carried plenty of 50+kg loads of meat out of the scrub over the years.....then gone back for another one. What you get used to I guess.

Nothing specific in camo really....various break-up patterns mostly US or NZ designed...anything that makes your outline less defined will do the job OK if you watch the wind, move slow and look a lot. Cheers

sambar358

[Greenie]

Since I created the topic, I expect an answer, well I would like one

With the off track walking, I grew up walking off track more than on the track and still do sometimes. There is are number of forum members that walk off track, even in areas of horizontal scrub in Tassie for example. There is the chance that someone could walk straight into the area of hunting and be shot at?

In regards to noise of gun shots going off in a national park I am used to it. As my local national park has a rifle range in the middle of it. The advantage of this was, you always knew where you were, as you had a reference point base on the sound. Well, the disadvantage is one of annoyance for me and the wildlife. The other disadvantage was that main track went just behind the range. It is since been moved.

[Moondog55]

OK The chances of being shot by a hunter in the areas where Sambar358 hunts is minimal, 1;10,000,000 where I have been taken hunting also not at all likely. likely odds of winning tattslotto are better
( hunters being shot by the boobytraps and mantraps put out by the dope growers is another story )
In other areas the risk is there but in all honesty it is a very small risk, as I posted early on, walking across Bourke Street is much more dangerous, seriously dangerous. you are more likely to be killed while using public transport here in Melbourne ( what does that say about the policing of our networks>>??) or suffering a heart attack while working out at the local gym.
We will hear and see you long before you get close, bushwalkers tend to be a noisy, colourful and talkative bunch after all. Bushwalkers usually do not walk where the hunting is, why i have been in one gully where it took two of us all day to do 3 klicks up through the deadfall to a wallow my mate wanted to checkout

[north-north-west]

We will hear and see you long before you get close, bushwalkers tend to be a noisy, colourful and talkative bunch after all. Bushwalkers usually do not walk where the hunting is...

I walk alone, mostly off track, make very little noise (except when I'm singing), and spend a reasonable bit of time in those parts of the ANP where deer hunting occurs. I've met a few hunters, also seen a few of their dogs out and about.
You cannot guarantee that I won't be accidentally shot.

[sambar358]

Greenie....I'd think that you really have your answer by default. It seems that very few posters (NNW seems to be one) have actually come into contact with a deer hunter in the bush. Yep....we've had a few posters that have had an unpleasant experience with yobs at a road-end campsite...but deer hunters ???? Maybe or maybe not. Generally the responses to this subject in the thread seem quite benign.....no or very few contacts....maybe a shot or two heard off in the distance and this is interesting as sambar deer hunting has been conducted in the ANP for 20+ years. NNW who does some cross-country walking has met a few hunters by the sound of it....and "seen a few of their dogs out and about" which is a bit of a worry as we are not permitted to use any sort of a dog in the Park....so likely people acting illegally if they had dogs...."anti hunters"....the minority that try to pull all of us down to their level.

There are no guarantees of personal safety in any sort of adventure activity....PV cannot guarantee that one of their trees will not fall on you, nor can they guarantee that you will not end-up down an unmarked mineshaft somewhere....the list of risks is almost endless but we do these things because we enjoy them and it'd be pointless staying home if all the "what if's" were taken into account. In reality the most dangerous part of a journey into the mountains to go walking, fishing, cross-country skiing, deer hunting etc is the drive to and from the venue....this is where the real danger exists really and by-and-large we have little control over that too. Cheers

sambar358

[Greenie]

I walk alone more than with someone. Like NNW, I am very quite, the only difference being I talk to myself instead of singing!

It would be good in NSW if only Deer's were permitted to be hunted, but if the law is passed there will be 11 other categories (including small birds) of animals that can be hunted. As I have never hunted, are the same stalking skills required for say a pig?

[frenchy_84]

It would be good in NSW if only Deer's were permitted to be hunted, but if the law is passed there will be 11 other categories (including small birds) of animals that can be hunted.

I dont understand that logic. Just because your target species is different doesn't mean you can forget all about safe gun usage.

The fact that in Victoria you can only shot Sambar Deer while other ferals are protected within a national park is bizarre. Surely if you allow shooting within a national park all feral species should be shot.