old-growth forest logging

[stepbystep]

I usually drink Cascade, think I'll switch to Boags.

LOL, I drink Coopers

[walkinTas]

Now you're changing the subject. They were talking about beer.

[tasadam]

Strange the colors of Tassie politics. Grey, Brown, Greene. Not a bright cheerful colour amongst them.

Sorry, just an observation, the colours of yr avatar are...
Just a bit of fun, no harm intended.

[photohiker]

I usually drink Cascade, think I'll switch to Boags.

LOL, I drink Coopers

Haha. Caught me being non-parochial there. Don't mind the odd pale ale myself.

[stepbystep]

Some interesting observations by Phil Ruthven on the ABC news tonight(4th story) if you are interested in a more centred view. Well worth seeing his full speech from today's economic development workshop in Hobart today.

[Tony]

An interesting article, well worth a read The untold story of the role of government in the rise and fall of Gunns

Tony

[stepbystep]

An interesting article, well worth a read The untold story of the role of government in the rise and fall of Gunns

Tony

Indeed it was Tony, thanks.
What's also been interesting is to see the fallout, in particular this http://www.smh.com.au/business/gunns-a- ... 271j0.html

Amazing anybody would try and defend the board of this company....

[north-north-west]

Strange the colors of Tassie politics. Grey, Brown, Greene. Not a bright cheerful colour amongst them.

Green isn't bright or cheerful? I'd have thought it would have depended on the shade of green in question. Or are such subtleties verboten in this thread?

[photohiker]

Forest talks fail after two-year negotiation

After two years of negotiation and several deadline extensions, Tasmania's forest peace talks have failed.

Federal Environment Minister Tony Burke flew into Hobart last night in a last-ditch attempt to save the talks.

But this morning he said he was pessimistic agreement would ever be reached to reduce native forest logging and create new conservation areas.

Tasmania's Resources Minister Bryan Green said peace in Tasmanian forests was now almost impossible.

It means that millions of dollars in federal assistance packages will not be provided to help saw millers and loggers exit the industry.

Legislation enacting a peace deal would also be rolled back.

ABC News Link

So the community division over old growth forest logging is destined to fester on.

[Beeper]

Its a pity that the opposing sides simply are too dogmatic to come to a resolution. I'm disappointed with the Green side, the all or nothing approach often will result in failure, given they could have had a very good outcome (80-90% of the claimed 570k ha), but instead chose 100% or very close to it as their pass mark. And the forest industry side for being too slow to adapt to changing markets and community attitudes. With a likely majority liberal govt both state and federal in the next year or two, I cannot see much or any future conservation outcomes to look forward to.

Probably the best thing thing that could happen now is for the public funding tap to stop/dry up and the forest industry can adapt and stand on its own without govt handouts. Some how I think there are more twists and turns to come in this debate.

[photohiker]

From an email today..

http://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/save- ... as-forests

Well, GetUP reckons the reason the talks collapsed at the last minute was:

It was supposed to be the final night of negotiations. After two arduous years of talks the forest industry, their union and environmentalists were set to reach an agreement that would see Tasmania's magnificent ancient forests protected, and the industry restrucutured to meet modern standards.

We have it on good authority that in the final moments of negotiations one of the few remaining old-growth sawmillers said he would not support the agreement because Bunnings and Harvey Norman were unwilling to accept any less old growth timber.

The forest industry, workers, community and environment groups have been willing to adapt and compromise and had found a solution - it's time Harvey Norman and Bunnings were called on to declare whether they support or oppose a Tasmanian forest agreement.

While all of this remains behind closed doors there has been no pressure on Harvey Norman and Bunnings but if tens of thousands of us sign this petition we can hold them accountable. We'll personally deliver the petition to the companies and hold a media conference in the next week so add your name now:

No idea if that info is correct, but GetUP is doing their thing to try and find out.

[Beeper]

I find GetUp's claims very hard to believe, they are just trying to take advantage of one issue to support another. The groups in the IGA process probably agreed to disagree a long time time, perhaps 6-12 months in the process. It was predicted some time ago by experts that this would be the outcome (double loss), the groups stayed in the process perhaps to save face and political pressure.

[maddog]

I'm disappointed with the Green side, the all or nothing approach often will result in failure, given they could have had a very good outcome (80-90% of the claimed 570k ha), but instead chose 100% or very close to it as their pass mark.

It is not possible to negotiate with fundamentalists.

Cheers

[tasadam]

Reading this and a thought came to mind, the "very close to 100%" that they want protected - would this be the remaining area worth saving after decades of old growth logging & clearfelling / replacing with plantation?

As I say, just a thought, if it is the case, perhaps their stance is due mainly from what they see as the sins of the past.

[Ent]

What a load of hogwash on blaming Harvey Norman. Typical of the misinformation and corporate junking of reputation that we should be use to by now. Harvey Norman will sell what customers will buy and that is governed by price and customer demand, they are not specifiers of products, but sellers. A quick walk through Harvey Norman will reveal a wide range of furniture products, so assertion that they are now an evil empire hell bent on destruction of pristine native forest is sadly typical of the usual approach. Also we are hammered that the old growth forests are being wood-chipped and and we should be using high value timber in the production for furniture. Sorry I just do not understand unless this apparent contradiction, but as posted you can not negotiate with fundamentalists so now the next target is high class furniture manufacturers by the looks of it.

I have been told since the 1980's that unless immediate action is taken nothing is worth saving in a couple of years time and we know now that to be wrong as after thirty years "significant" forest remains. As for claims that old growth forest are being turned into plantations I am puzzled as always that this view is being pushed against the facts by people that claim to treasure facts. The fast growing trees planted by plantation companies have come from private lands. But what the heck, people want high class kitchens to brag about and the ability to trash hardworking peoples jobs and company reputations

We have lost paper mills due to the ability to modernise and replace them has being sabotage. Jobs have been lost with more and more families having the breadwinner on fly in fly out work regime so further destroying the sense of local community. Forestry in this state is a shambling ruin due in large part to Federal interference with the only viable option to rebuild the industry from scratch. Personally I see Federal money as a poison chalice and would be more than happy if the meddling stopped and local people took back their right to develop industries that will provide a living wage and not be held hostage by a bunch of guilt stricken fundamentalist that have stuffed up their own environment so looking to "save" themselves by further destroying local rural communities.

What will be the future? Maybe it will start at the ballot box, maybe it will not, one thing for sure many Tasmanians are feeling rather stepped upon.

Regards

[PeterJ]

I'm disappointed with the Green side, the all or nothing approach ............

It is not possible to negotiate with fundamentalists.

Yes and people were saying that before the Franklin dam fight, Compromise - give ground etc. Fortunately they didn't.

[Beeper]

Not a fair comparison PeterJ. The Franklin River was one large contiguous mostly untouched site with high wilderness value.

The forestry areas under dispute are non-contiguous, small and large, scattered right across the state, some with high conservation values, some not, some are actually regrowth forest. The conservation side could have had most of this formally protected in reserves and the timber industry could re-adjust and operate with the remaining areas. Now there is a good chance that none of the disputed areas will be reserved. Of course there could be more political twists and turns to come.

[photohiker]

Ent, you _could_ be right about Harvey Norman, I have no personal experience to base an opinion of them other than the BS anti internet trade arguments they raised as an excuse for their own poor performance and inability to keep up with the market. On the other hand, I have met wood millers in other states who deal with Bunnings, and based on those contacts, I can quite believe that Bunnings dictates item, quality, quantity and price to their timber suppliers.

Happy to concede that this cannot possibly be only HN and Bunnings fault though, but if the story turns out to be true than it will still be worth hearing about yet another facet of the reasons the talks were unable to be resolved other than the entrenched positions on either side. Looks like Miranda will grow old in her tree before a resolution is found at this rate.

[maddog]

PeterJ,

'They' were the High Court of Australia, who allowed the 'foreign affairs' power (s 51 xxix of the Constitution) to be used by the Commonwealth Government to override the laws of a democratically elected State Government. This decision, representing a considerable expansion of Commonwealth power, remains controversial to this day. Interestingly the tide is turning, and the Commonwealth is currently negotiating with the States for its retreat from environmental regulation, thus returning these powers to the States.

While a return to local democracy may or may not be a good thing, those who value the natural environment should be careful to support land management practices based on solid scientific evidence. In this case the science of forestry (as practiced by the 'original conservationists' - the foresters), rather than emotional distortions of those who display ignorance and promise salvation with a return to the age of the horse and cart. It is necessary to to heckle these uncompromising evangelists in hemp shirts (even if this means being denounced as a heretic). Such prophet's have already lost the support of the common man, many of whom have seen livelihoods sacrificed by this cult,though the greater public is becoming increasingly deaf to the cry that the 'end is nigh'.

Cheers

Last edited by maddog on Tue 30 Oct, 2012 5:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

[photohiker]

While a return to local democracy may or may not be a good thing, those who value the natural environment should be careful to support land management practices based on solid scientific evidence. In this case the science of forestry (as practiced by the 'original conservationists' - the foresters), rather than emotional distortions of those who display ignorance and promise salvation with a return to the age of the horse and cart. It is necessary to to ignore the zeal of these uncompromising evangelists in hemp shirts (even if this means being denounced as a heretic). Such prophet's have already lost the support of the common man, many of whom have seen livelihoods sacrificed by this cult, and the greater public is becoming increasingly deaf to the cry that the 'end is nigh'.

Don't hold back mate!

[Ent]

Photohiker you may be missing the growing frustration in Tasmania of being treated as plaything by the fat cats in Canberra and ignored by local state politicians. There is genuine despair in Tasmanian communities and rapidly breaking down trust in the political process.

We have a politically appointed chairman of Forestry acting as a liquidator and failing to understand the role that a chairperson is to play and instead is meddling making statements that are extraordinary This person is rapidly losing the support of his staff, if he has not already done so.

For thirty years of my working life the debate has raged and now I drive past ruined factories. The promised jobs have failed to appear except for a state bureaucracy that has grown beyond the means for working Tasmanians to support.

Many business decisions are in hold waiting for a progressive political environment. We are a long way from a mandatory election and fully aware that political parties on all sides have no road to the future. It is a situation best described as a malaise. A lot of my friends are thinking long and hard what way to vote and closing the financial storm shutters.

Real Estate agents are hinting that landlords are accepting only part rent payments to avoid empty shops so hiding the problem from public view. Plus spending fortunes refitting shops to attract tenants.

Even our out of state controlled newspapers are waking up that business is dying. They have been asleep but must have noticed that their revenues have dropped.

The locals at Stanley understand like their seaside counterparts worldwide that excessive tourism is killing the sense of community with places almost ceasing to exist in winter. Try buying clothing, electrical good or even getting a hair cut and newspaper. Instead endless trinket stores occupy the main street. Now even their quality furniture wood supply is to be yanked from them by the looks of it.

Regards

[photohiker]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-21/t ... er/4384802

A last-minute forest peace deal is expected to be announced on the Tasmanian Parliament's last sitting day for the year.

The ABC understands a deal to end Tasmania's decades-long forest wars is close.

It is understood environmental and industry groups have agreed to reserve 560,000 hectares of forest, reducing the amount of sawlogs available for loggers to about 140,000 and cubic metres.

It is expected State Cabinet will meet to sign the agreement, before putting it up for debate in Parliament on Thursday.

The State Government and negotiators are tight-lipped but figures are starting to leak out.

It is understood up to 560,000 hectares of native forest will be protected from logging; 395,000 hectares of forest will be placed into reserves straight away, followed by about 108,000 hectares a year later.

On top of that, 21,000 hectares will be logged once before being protected, while 37,000 hectares would only be logged selectively for speciality timbers.

It is also understood industry will receive an annual sawlog quota of about 137,000 cubic metres.

That is less than the figure guaranteed in the intergovernmental agreement signed by the Prime Minister in August last year.

In that document Ta Ann was guaranteed 265,000 cubic metres a year of peeler billets.

But it is unclear what it will end up with in the final deal..

Hmm. So someone did bang their heads together.

[tasadam]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-21/tasmania27s-forestry-peace-deal-closer/4384802

.....The ABC understands a deal to end Tasmania's decades-long forest wars is close......

Hmm. So someone did bang their heads together.

Is that "close" as in "near, or "close" as in "closed", like "closed for business"

[GD4Up]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-21/tasmania27s-forestry-peace-deal-closer/4384802

Hmm. So someone did bang their heads together.

... So mutually assured destruction will be avoided at the 11th hour (and 59th second)?

I won't hold my breath but let's see what this week spits out. It presumably has to travel through the gauntlet of the Upper House as well

[photohiker]

Hmmm.

[Nuts]

Ah, the good old cooking fire days...?

[Mountain Rocket]

Wow what a shot.

[Binder]

Where is that ?

[photohiker]

Where is that ?

I saw the Photo on the ABC twitter feed, and is attributed to Hobart photographer Beth Heap.

"Smoke rises from forestry burn-offs in the Hartz Mountains National Park, southern Tasmania, April 6, 2013."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-12/s ... ection=tas

[Binder]

Thanks for that. Thought it looked Hartzish...