Hunting in some NSW National Parks

[Tony]

I certainly will hold them accountable.

Thank god i dont live in NSW.

Hi Phillip,

On Saturday I was listening to a Queensland journalist on RN about gun laws etc, and he was saying that Campbell Newman is planning to open up Queensland National Parks to recreational hunters just like NSW.

Tony

[ULWalkingPhil]

I certainly will hold them accountable.

Thank god i dont live in NSW.

Hi Phillip,

On Saturday I was listening to a Queensland journalist on RN about gun laws etc, and he was saying that Campbell Newman is planning to open up Queensland National Parks to recreational hunters just like NSW.

Tony

There all loonies. They suppose to be protecting the area and give us access to a protected area and now they want people to cart guns around in these protected areas and shooting at anything that moves. I know a lot of you are going to jump on here now saying how responsible you are and making sure what the target is before shooting, unfortunately there are a lot of idiots out there that are not mature enough and will shoot at anything that moves. You only got to read some of the poor outcomes in the states and that sad story someone posted earlier on a hiker being accidentally shot in camp. I dont call this an accident, as far as im concern should be charged for manslaughter and the government held accountable.

[wayno]

in new zealand this year there have been three deaths this year from hunters shooting hunters, one was wearing a high vis hat.
the guy who shot him was the ex president of the local branch of the deer stalkers , decades of experience hunting and even he didnt identify his target, he was shooting in bad light, shot the guy in the head. killed instantly..... every year someone is killed in nz, usually it's hunters shooting other hunters , although a camper was killed a few years back in a campsite because they mistook her led headlamp as the reflection of a deer eye. he ws charged and went to prison but that was a first, and a second person has just been imprisoned.
i would never go off track during the roar in nz, anywhere i know the hunters are around.. i know a tramper who was shot at walking along a track.
as responsible as hunters say they are its not uncommon to misidentify their target, you can't make out colour easily if you're in thick bush, fleece texture can look like an animal pelt from a distance. hunters get high on adrenaline and endorphins and get trigger happy, they convince themselves they are looking at what they want to shoot at but they are wrong... hunting ammunition is designed to cause maximum damage far worse than military ammunition.. thats why so many of them die from one shot.
its arguably worse if hunters are let into an area for the first time when they arent used to sharing an area with bushwalkers and they are used to an area where just about everything that moves is game.... sure there are a lot of hunters that never shoot people but , you can't afford mistakes identifying your target. if you cant see enough of the shape to clearly make it out as the animal you are after and not just some part of it that looks like the right colour then you shouldnt have your finger on the trigger...

[ULWalkingPhil]

You shouldn't have your finger on any weapon in any National Park. I can see it, young immatures, running around in our national parks with weapons that should not be in there hands, let alone in a National Park. What's this government of ours thinking. and what are you shooter even thinking about taking a weapon into a national park with fellow hikers in the area?

[wayno]

its always been standard practice in nz, hunters have always had equal access to the national parks, the only restriction is near the great walks. a lot of walkers hunt as well and alternate between the activities . and they've never been able to do much to address the death toll of hunters shooting people. perhaps starting to imprison people will have some impact. perhaps not...
thing is when a group has had the right be default to access the parks and theres a lot of them , we'd never be able to remove them from the parks, three are a hell of a lot of hunters in nz, no shortage of areas, where you can hunt, the govt have always encouraged recreational hunters. and the death toll has never resulted in any change of policy in hunter access.

[wayno]

it comes down to politics as to who has access. if the hunters are a large enough group and vocal and organised enough to lobby for access to the park then it's likely to happen

in nz you used to have traditional old time trampers running the dept of conservation and they locked mountain bikers out of the national park tracks.. but in recent times there are so many mountain bikers now, tramper no's have dropped , the mountain bikers are very organised and push for access and some of doc mgmt are mountain bikers as well and hey presto,, doc start opening up tracks to the mountain bikers and spending big money upgrading facilities to cater for the bikers, new bridges that they can ride across and bigger huts... once apon a time the bikers would get the short shift from doc staff but now they are welcomed...

[WarrenH]

Now it looks like it is getting really interesting. How can the pollies possibly introduce shooting in NPs and not responsibly monitor it happening? Lazy Premier = lazy policies. As if Blind Freddy couldn't have told the pollies how atrocious their negligent approach is. Responsible monitoring, averages one million ha per monitor, for the drunks with guns at night! Its not if an innocent person will be shot ... its when. But, we all knew that?

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/fears ... 2c0av.html

The ethic of toning down our dress, so as not to ruin the experience for others in the bush, is now gone ... with our new hi-viz vests.

Warren.

[FatCanyoner]

The ethic of toning down our dress, so as not to ruin the experience for others in the bush, is now gone ... with our new hi-viz vests.

Yep, I've been waiting for some clever outdoor gear maker to release a range of hiking attire in fluro orange ready for the March start date of this idiotic policy!

[hikingdude]

Now it looks like it is getting really interesting. How can the pollies possibly introduce shooting in NPs and not responsibly monitor it happening? Lazy Premier = lazy policies. As if Blind Freddy couldn't have told the pollies how atrocious their negligent approach is. Responsible monitoring, averages one million ha per monitor, for the drunks with guns at night! Its not if an innocent person will be shot ... its when. But, we all knew that?

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/fears ... 2c0av.html

The ethic of toning down our dress, so as not to ruin the experience for others in the bush, is now gone ... with our new hi-viz vests.

Warren.

What do you mean by 'responsibly monitor it happening'?

The system will be the same as the Game Council's current one for managing state forests. Since the Game Council's inception, there has not been a hunting related death on public land. Although, facts mean nothing to the scaremongering tactics of certain groups.

Hunters are trained, accredited and go through background checks to acquire their licences. You'll always get criminals who will hunt illegally, however, there's no laws that will stop crims being crims.

[WarrenH]

What do you mean by 'responsibly monitor it happening'?

I mean it is an impossibility.

Warren.

[Tony]

What do you mean by 'responsibly monitor it happening'?

The system will be the same as the Game Council's current one for managing state forests. Since the Game Council's inception, there has not been a hunting related death on public land. Although, facts mean nothing to the scaremongering tactics of certain groups.

Hunters are trained, accredited and go through background checks to acquire their licences. You'll always get criminals who will hunt illegally, however, there's no laws that will stop crims being crims.

Hi hikingdude,

Can you 100% guarantee that another National park user will never be shot by a recreational hunter, I suggest not, as history shows it will only be a matter of time before someone is killed. Hunting in low use NSW State Forests will be a different matter than high use National Parks.

The Game Council written test is not sufficient training to ensure safety of other park users and if you read Action needed to stop hunting in National Parks blog thread, I am not convinced all hunters are responsible like you suggests.

Tony

[hikingdude]

What do you mean by 'responsibly monitor it happening'?

The system will be the same as the Game Council's current one for managing state forests. Since the Game Council's inception, there has not been a hunting related death on public land. Although, facts mean nothing to the scaremongering tactics of certain groups.

Hunters are trained, accredited and go through background checks to acquire their licences. You'll always get criminals who will hunt illegally, however, there's no laws that will stop crims being crims.

Hi hikingdude,

Can you 100% guarantee that another National park user will never be shot by a recreational hunter, I suggest not, as history shows it will only be a matter of time before someone is killed. Hunting in low use NSW State Forests will be a different matter than high use National Parks.

The Game Council written test is not sufficient training to ensure safety of other park users and if you read Action needed to stop hunting in National Parks blog thread, I am not convinced all hunters are responsible like you suggests.

Tony

No, I can't guarantee anything. Can you guarantee I won't be hit and killed by a MTB rider while hunting? Should we restrict that?

Further, hunting in National Parks will be restricted to low use areas. Wilderness areas will be exclusion zones. Individuals will have the choice to accept the risk - which is minimal - or go elsewhere.

I'll agree that the Game Council test leaves something to be desired, however, I feel like it weeds out those who would present the most risk. Although, regardless of laws, there's nothing stopping them from hunting illegally anyway.

[DaveNoble]

Looks like we will have to pay a bit more too!

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conse ... 2c9xh.html

Dave

[ULWalkingPhil]

Looks like we will have to pay a bit more too!

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conse ... 2c9xh.html

Dave

I don't understand, the government is obviously aware of the high risks that a bushwalker will be shot, I notice the report say's Could be shot, I think this should read "will be shot" it will only be a matter of time that some innocent hiker will be killed. Why do this? Why not leave the National Parks alone, I thought it's suppose to be protected. We are getting to Americanised for my liking.

And now they want us to pay for this foolish activity?
Stupid, Stupid Stupid. There all a bunch of idiots if you ask me.

[Tony]

Hi hikingdude,

No, I can't guarantee anything. Can you guarantee I won't be hit and killed by a MTB rider while hunting? Should we restrict that?

So what you are saying is that because a bushwalker may be killed by a mountain bike it is OK if a bushwalker is shot and killed by a recreational hunter in NSW National Parks. I would like to see if another park user is "accidentally" killed by a recreational hunter, they should be charged with murder.

Further, hunting in National Parks will be restricted to low use areas. Wilderness areas will be exclusion zones. Individuals will have the choice to accept the risk - which is minimal - or go elsewhere.

I walk in areas where hunting will be allowed and they are not low use areas like you are trying to suggest, and I do not see why I should have to "go elsewhere" because someone wants to pursue their pleasure of killing, I have a right to be able to walk in NSW National Parks in the safety of knowing that I will not be shot.

Hunters already have a very large area of NSW State Forest to hunt in, as far as hunting invasive animals in NSW State Forests goes, it has been bit of a disaster to say the least, maybe hunters should get their act together in NSW State Forests first.

I'll agree that the Game Council test leaves something to be desired, however, I feel like it weeds out those who would present the most risk. Although, regardless of laws, there's nothing stopping them from hunting illegally anyway.

I realise that most recreational hunters are very responsible, but guns are for killing and it only takes one stray bullet to kill someone, again as it cannot be guaranteed that all hunters will be responsible why should the rest of NSW Park users be put in danger because a few people want to pursue their pleasure of killing.

Tony

[Tony]

I don't understand, the government is obviously aware of the high risks that a bushwalker will be shot, I notice the report say's Could be shot, I think this should read "will be shot" it will only be a matter of time that some innocent hiker will be killed. Why do this? Why not leave the National Parks alone, I thought it's suppose to be protected. We are getting to Americanised for my liking.

And now they want us to pay for this foolish activity?
Stupid, Stupid Stupid. There all a bunch of idiots if you ask me.

Hi Phillipsart,

It is only a matter of time before hunting in National Parks happens in Queensland.

Tony

[Nuts]

A sixty page report warns/ concludes that 'hunting may be dangerous'.. As much as it pains them, the insurers need to increase premiums..
As unlikely as it sounds I too see as much relationship between an unintended consequence whether the instrument is a gun, car, Mtb, lost walker.. anything creating a potentially dangerous situation.

That said, it is a shame that designated hunting areas have to conflict with any popular walking areas, surely this isn't necessary. Surely too, it wouldn't be hard to give notifications for areas outside these and at least have some designated time periods.

[Rob A]

Bollocking drivel.
People only have the energy to focus on one topic.
Neatly sidelining the real issue/s .... eg http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-31/p ... se/4043658
Hang the fishers as well. The state of politics when idiots with fishing rods get a say in what goes on.

[Tony]

This is an interesting article which gives an insight on how hunting in NSW national Parks will work, Shooting back in National Parks by March

Mr Muirhead said there would be different restrictions on the re-opened parks, depending on their classification.

In parks with higher tourist numbers, hunting can only be done in the company of a park ranger, and the park would be specially closed for the hunt.

Mr Muirhead said in parks with less tourist numbers, similar to the Millewa forest, hunting would be allowed for a certain time period each year.

In remote parks with virtually no tourists, hunting will be open year round.

Local parks will have a combination of hunting seasons, from after Easter to before Christmas, and year-round hunting in different areas.

Mr Muirhead said shooters would be trained to identify what they shoot and to also use a backstop that will stop the bullet.

It will be interesting how long some parks will be closed for this so-called pest control.

Tony

[chops38]

Hi All,
I've been reading this thread with interest.
I understand it is concerning for those that have never been exposed to guns or hunting as it is something new and different to what they are used to.

Firstly let me declare that I am a hunter and also keen bushwalker. The majority of my hunting (as with approx 95% of Deer Hunting in National/State Parks in vic) is completed in Winter and the majority of my Specific Hiking/Camping trips are completed in the warmer months with my wife.

I'm from Victoria and I thought I'd provide my insight from how things work down here which I hope gives some comfort and understanding to those in NSW. We're never all going to agree, but I think it important to get a true understanding of what actually happens whilst hunting in dense and remote bush. And I'd also like to hopefully clarify a few misunderstanding that are quoted above.

1. The article above referring to 'Closing Parks' will (I believe) be a very similar situation to what happens here in vic where there are specific pest animal problems at certain times in certain parks. Obviously it is not safe to have people hunting in parks that have very high levels of tourists. However from time to time pest numbers such as foxes, goats or rabbits become extreamly high and the SSAA is contacted to assist in the removal of pest animals. This is often done at night or midweek to further reduce affecting tourists. An example of this is the Goat erradiction program being run in the You Yangs in conjunction with the SSAA Pest Erradication Program and Parks Victoria.

2. I've been deer hunting in State and National Parks for many years and in all that time I've never once come accross a bush walker. There are a number of reasons for this.
- The majority of deer are hunted well away from defined walking trails. Deer are not easy to find and the successful guys find them by using their bush skills and tracking the deer well away from where people usually are. People don't drive around in cars hoping to see an animal, this simply doesn't work in bushland.
- As most hunting occurs in Winter there are VERY few bushwalkers anyway. In fact in all my years I've NEVER come accross a bush walker in a National Park and infact have much more contact with people whilst hunting in State Forests which are also used by Trail Bike Riders and 4wders.

My feelings are that the bush is there for all to use it and that includes Law Abiding Hunters persuing their love of the outdoors and true remote bushland. National Parks are the most amazing places to spend time whilst hunting and I'm glad that my NSW friends will now have the same opportunity.

Good luck to all, and I'm sure you'll find that it's not going to be as bad as you fear and infact will have absolutely no impact on how we all enjoy to spend our time, and that is in the bush.

Cheers

[Travis22]

Another long time bushwalker and long time hunter here,

I too have never run into any bushwalkers while out Deer Stalking in the Victorian Alpine National Park.

People have been hunting all across Australia for a lot longer then people have gone bushwalking.

I dare say bushwalking probably came about when hunters first left their firearms at home for the day. Half of the time i go 'hunting' i dont even bring my rifle.

Deer stalking is not about going bush every weekend and firing off a hundred rounds in every direction. Most deer stalkers wouldnt even fire a single shot from their firearm 4 out of 5 trips.

99.99999% of the time it is a non issue when the bush is shared by all of the many and vast different user groups.

[north-north-west]

to the pro-hunting lobby:

It's all very well to spout on about how you never see any walkers (which is odd, because I've seen over a hundred hunters whilst out walking in the Vic Alps), and how careful you are, and how well trained and blah, blah blah.
But!
The fact is that accidents and carelessness and sheer bad luck are unavoidable. They occur everywhere else where hunters co-exist with non-hunting Park users (or even fellow hunters, for that matter). It is simply ridiculous to insist that they won't happen here. Which gets us to the bottom line:
Just what do you think is an acceptable level of 'collateral damage' for the freedom to pursue your chosen pastime in National Parks? One corpse per year? Per two years? Maybe two a year?
Just how many deaths are you prepared to accept? And how many would it take for you to start thinking 'Hmmm, maybe this isn't such a good idea after all"?

[Tony]

+1 north-north-west.

Hi Travis22 and chops38,

Thank you for your views, I am a bit confused as to why Remote area deer hunting in Victoria has to do with hunting in in NSW National Parks which if it follows what has been happening in NSW State Forests is basically unsuccessful rabbit hunting (if you do not believe this check the NSW Game Council annual reports).

If you read the hunting lobby press releases on Recreational Hunting in NSW National Parks, this very dirty deal is about is about reducing feral animal numbers in NSW National Parks, as they have falsely claimed they have done in NSW State Forests, as both of you have been hunting deer in Victoria for many years, can you inform me and the readers of this" Hunting in some NSW National Parks" forum thread, if recreational deer hunting in Victorian National Parks has been successful in reducing feral deer numbers in Victorian National Parks.

Tony

[chops38]

Gents,
Not part of any pro hunting lobby, just adding to the discussion with my experience from down here in vic where Hunters and Bushwalkers have been co existing without incident for many many years.

Tony, in response to your question: What does my experence here have to do with this thread? Well it's fair to expect that what happens here will be replicated there and by explaining real life experience I can hopefully reduce some concern for some people. We have 27,000 hunters who are licenced to hunt deer in National Parks here, I've never heard of anyone heading into the National Park to go rabbit hunting. Let's be very clear here, I agree with you that I think the NSW State Government is trying to save face and claim it's all for the Pest Animal Control, but blind Freddie can see that the Fishing/Shooting party have used their balance of power to serve their supporters to the best of their ability. All power to them. I have no hard proof about reduction in deer numbers as a result of hunting, that's not something I look at, but it sure doesn't increase their numbers.

NNW, I respect your stance but lets look at the actual history here, which i know is no guarantee of future results, but at least it gives us something to work with. There have been ZERO injuries and deaths to bush walkers in Victoria due to Hunters. I'd be interested in the number of Injuries and Deaths to Bushwalkers as a result of Driving to their Walking Desitination, or being underprepared, or in serious cases actually dying in Blizzard conditions. There are risks in all walks of life and the risks of a hunting related death or injury is so miniscule it's not worth stressing over.

Either way, i'm not interested in getting into a huge debate over this issue, just wanted to share my real life experience to what I expect to be a similar scenario as to what I've seen.

I'm off to plan a hike from Hotham in a couple of weeks.

Cheers

[north-north-west]

NNW, I respect your stance but lets look at the actual history here, which i know is no guarantee of future results, but at least it gives us something to work with. There have been ZERO injuries and deaths to bush walkers in Victoria due to Hunters. I'd be interested in the number of Injuries and Deaths to Bushwalkers as a result of Driving to their Walking Desitination, or being underprepared, or in serious cases actually dying in Blizzard conditions. There are risks in all walks of life and the risks of a hunting related death or injury is so miniscule it's not worth stressing over.

No, lets look at the actual history in places where hunting in National Parks, even during peak walking times, has been widespread for a considerable time. Like NZ. Or the US. Deaths are a regular occurence there. They will happen here, too - there is nothing unique about the Australian bush or Australian shooters to make it otherwise.

Being underprepared is my fault. If the weather catches me, there is a great deal I can do to minimise the chances of death. Ditto whilst driving, even if it's another driver who has caused the problem.
But if someone gets careless or unlucky with his/her gun, there's no defence for the person who's in the path of the bullet.

[Pteropus]

FYI, there is a free public lecture at the Uni of Technology, Sydney on the 15th of February called "Compassionate Conservation: Is recreational hunting defensible?"
Details here -> http://cfsites1.uts.edu.au/science/news ... emId=33618

[chops38]

I'm always intruiged by discussions on issues such as this, I'd love to hear a report from someone if they did attend...

[Hallu]

The problem is the Australian government has always lacked some serious balls (no offense to Julia). They always have to compromise, whether it's with the hunters, the miners, the loggers, the fishermen, etc... No mining no logging no hunting no fishing no motorsports no phone towers should be the norm in National Parks (and it is in most of the countries in the world), and nothing should be called a National Park if any of those activities is allowed in an area. But no, they just chicken out, and now there are like 500 national parks in Australia, not managed by the federal government but by the state instead (so it's a state park...) where you can do pretty much anything.

Because of this constant compromising from the government and the extremely weak status of the Australian national park, the great barrier reef is in danger of losing its Unesco world heritage status (and is in danger altogether anyway). What's next ? Kakadu because of uranium mining and fauna decline ? Uluru because there's a slum of aborigines right behind it that the government is trying to hide (they even send the army to "rule" it) ? Wilderness protection needs a serious kick in the *&%$#! in Australia, maybe the Unesco will provide it, or maybe we need a disaster to make the government realize its mistakes, maybe the giant harbor project in Port Hedland will do the trick, or the so many ravaging mining projects in Cape York Peninsula or the Kimberley... By the way a quote from this article ( http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/featu ... ggest-port ) shocked me : "Gone are the days where environmental approval was the biggest challenge, it’s now the community, not the regulators, which are the toughest nut to crack." So there's no more strong environmental protection in Australia now ? Is only Tassie concerned by its wilderness nowadays ? Maybe it's easier over because they have less natural resources I don't know. But it certainly looks like Queensland and WA have long given up...

[Rob A]

FYI, there is a free public lecture at the Uni of Technology, Sydney on the 15th of February called "Compassionate Conservation: Is recreational hunting defensible?"
Details here -> http://cfsites1.uts.edu.au/science/news ... emId=33618

What? Is a penny beginning to drop?
What happened to live exports when the animals welfare in dispatch couldnt be guaranteed?
Add to that, is there any defense for killing stuff for fun.

[Nuts]

It's a bit rich to support compassion when it comes to conservation, let feral numbers build until they are dying on road verges, chase them down taking pot shots from choppers, mass poisoning..?? the status quo isn't exactly compassionate?