North Face Jacket - delamination / faulty? [IMAGE WARNING]

[Stonie]

Hello All,

Just wanted to share my recent experience with North Face for the benefit of others here.

Background:
I bought my wife a North Face jacket in 2008 as a light rain coat and for a few day walks. It's the Venture model, with HyVent as the proofing.

The jacket was purchased 4 years ago, sure thats not recent but the issue is the manufacturing fault which has ended the jackets life.

It has seen light use and is in otherwise great condition, all zippers are like new as are Velcro, press studs and other functional parts of the jacket.
and outer fabric is still nice and bright, the jacket has been cared for as per the instructions.

The Point is: The jacket is otherwise fully serviceable only subjected to light use and in otherwise good condition. Problem is the significant delamination... more on that below... (as pictured)
Looks like a case of a manufacturing defect in the proofing, causing failure well before the rest of the jacket is even close to being worn out.

About a year ago my wife started to complain that her jacket had started leaking. I suspect that If i had looked even sooner I would have noticed the beginnings of the delamination well before that.
I would suggest that if you own these jackets or any north face gear for that matter, I would examine closely for faults and return the item sooner rather than later, or suffer my fate as I will explain below.

North Face Warranty:
Given that North Face is strong brand in the market, you would expect them to stand by their products.

So I returned the jacket to the same store I bought it from in Sydney, and showed them the jacket.
Alan the manger had a look at the jacket and mentioned that he has seen this fault before and it is a known problem with Venture jackets.

I left the jacket with Alan, he said he would send it (or take photos not sure which) to the supplier (True alliance) for assessment. He popped the jacket in a bag marked as "faulty" and I left it with him.
Allan came back after a few days later genuine and apologetic... explaining he could not authorize replacement it because it was out of it's 2 year warranty (news to me). I had to speak with True Alliance.

Warranty information
Warranty information is suspiciously missing from the Australian website? https://www.thenorthface.com.au

The closest thing I could find is this one liner in the "Returns policy" link (footer of website)
https://shop.thenorthface.com.au/

Return of Faulty goods:
The North Face is committed to providing you with a quality product. In the unlikely event that you believe the goods to be faulty at any stage please contact us and one of our friendly team will do what they can to assist.

However the American website, is far more in line with my expectations of the brand... they offer a lifetime warranty (for the lifetime of the product) for defects related to manufacture. Which unless I am grossly mistaken would cover delamination given the rest of the jacket is serviceable and well within its reasonable lifetime.

Looks like Americans get a real warranty and description is as such:

http://www.thenorthface.com/en_US/contact-us/warrantyproduct-guarantee/

Lifetime Warranty and Repairs
For 40 years, outdoor athletes have trusted The North Face® products to protect them from extreme conditions. Always striving to build the best possible products backed by our warranty, all merchandise featured online and in our retail stores carry a lifetime warranty, enabling athletes to Never Stop Exploring™. If you purchase merchandise with defects in workmanship or materials, even after extended use, we’ll repair the product, without charge, or replace it, at our discretion. Please send all products for warranty evaluation to The North Face Warranty Department at 14450 Doolittle Drive, San Leandro, CA 94577.

Our lawyers told us we should tell you that this warranty does not cover damage caused by accident, improper care, negligence, normal wear and tear, or the natural breakdown of colors and materials over extended time and use. Damage not covered under warranty will be repaired for a reasonable rate and a fee will be charged for return shipping. All shipping to Warranty must be pre-paid and insured. The North Face® cannot be liable for lost in-bound packages. California State law requires that products accepted for repair be clean. Charges will be assessed if cleaning is necessary.

North Face Sydney Runaround

A company called True Alliance actually supply North Face in Australia.

Alan, from the North Face retail outlet organised a representative from True alliance to call me. A fellow called Shahab Shafiee called me. He was less pleasant than Allan. I explained the jacket is in good condition and fully serviceable apart from the delamination. Shahab Shafiee also passed the buck saying that he couldn't make a decision and claimed that an 'unnamed Sales' manager would call me.

That never happened. Shahab Shafiee emailed me on the 30th of May so I think its safe to say its not going to happen. Classic passing of the buck until the customer gives up...

Bottom line:

• Would I have bought the North Face jacket knowing it would be unusable within a few years of light use? No way.
• Evidently North Face does not stand by their products. even if its a clear manufacturing fault (unlike the warranty american customers receive).
• Will I buy their gear again? Not a chance.

For comparison, I have a Outdoor research jacket, bought around the same time, that cost around the same and has been on serious walks (SW Taz - 7/5/3 days with heavy pack).
It does not leak, has no holes despite bush bashing in it. no delamination at all, even where pack straps have been for extended periods. it's a decent bit of kit.

So my my lasting impression is that The NorthFace is a retail outlet that sells overpriced, heavily marketed junk. masquerading as a supplier of quality products and services.
As per my experience, NorthFace and True Alliance does not care about the customer, nor stand by their products, despite claims otherwise.

I was naive in regards to both product quality offered by NorthFace and very poor after sales customer service.

I hope this helps others avoid, being duped by slick marketing and shoddy after sales from North Face.

Kind regards,
Andrew Stone.

Attachments

IMG_4105.JPG (103.33 KiB) Viewed 26367 times

IMG_4107.JPG (99.31 KiB) Viewed 26367 times

IMG_4113.JPG (82.7 KiB) Viewed 26367 times

IMG_4111.JPG (89.69 KiB) Viewed 26367 times

Last edited by Stonie on Mon 17 Jun, 2013 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[wayno]

could have been a bad batch... do you live somewhere very humid?
my girlfriend has got one of these, about the same age, no problems
it is their cheapest membrane though...
if you want a good warranty and good durability then gore tex tends to be it....
what outdoor research jacket is it? they use pertex polyeurethane and gore tex mebranes
someone at bivouac said they get the least complaints about the pertex membranes. i've got pertex waterproof pants from Outdoor research, have had them about five years no problems. i've scrutinised them for damage to the membrane and cant find anything, seems to be a pretty tough membrane, still light and stretchy too.
the good north face gear is generally pretty reliable though, and very expensive. they are a massive company. so one person complaining is probably nothing to them. they can go on pedalling the massive volumes. you bought one of their cheaper products and they may not really care because you didnt want to spend the big bucks....
i find the smaller quality brands give the best customer service... westcomb i think theres only one person you deal with.... and they stand by their warranties....

[Stonie]

Hi Wano,

could have been a bad batch... do you live somewhere very humid?

Sydney gets humid at times by really it can't be described as 'very humid' by any means... in fact it has been very dry until recently.

what outdoor research jacket is it?

Yes the OR jacket is Gortex. Can't tell you exactly what type as the wife is wearing it! from memory it was roughly $50-70 more expensive than the North Face but is clearly in a different league.

someone at bivouac said they get the least complaints about the pertex membranes.

Cheers, thanks for the tip!

so one person complaining is probably nothing to them. they can go on pedalling the massive volumes. you bought one of their cheaper products and they may not really care because you didnt want to spend the big bucks....

Well if thats true, no one should by their products. I spend a great deal of money on high end gear for my own walking (wife is not interested in the wilderness) Even if their high end stuff is decent I won't be buying it. Talk about a good way to alienate potential future customers.

BTW: I have loads more pictures if anyone wants too see more. The jacket is almost mint apart from the delamination.

Regards,
Andrew.

[tryangus]

Have you washed it, dude? Also, elaborate a little on how you've used it?

[wayno]

thats cool. theres enough pics there to get a good idea on the jacket,
friendly note: if you post heaps of pics you have to put a warning in your subject line or the forum moderators will ping you. not everyone wants to open a page that takes ages to load heaps of pics.

yeah yours is an example where you can see the advantages of seeking out a company that stands by its warranty
although after four years they just may not be bothered trying to work out how much wear the jacket has really had...
the north face must be about one of the biggest sellers of outdoor gear. but the thing is its the local distributor you are dealing with and its their choice how they deal with this, you could point out this weblink to them, and point out this link you have posted on australasias biggest bushwalking forum, visited by large no's of serious outdoor walkers.
you could contact the north face in the states and complain about the non existant service you're getting from the distributor... then you will find out what the north face service is like....

[Stonie]

@Wano - Thanks for the tips. NB: My kit is fully stocked with decent gear. part of the reason this crummy and expensive jacket from a big brand has annoyed me enough to post about it.

@tryangus - Wife uses it as a rain coat around town. never seen enough use to require a wash.

[wayno]

some membanes don't like body oils. they can break down the glue that holds the membrane to the fabric. washing can reduce this issue
gore tex can generally doesnt have this issue

[Stonie]

Yep I am aware of that. NB: North Face fails to mention that in their care instructions... furthermore we are talking about light use with undergarments.
I Will double check with the wife if she washed it may have that I am not aware of.

Also remembering that the instore sales staff recognised this as a "known fault" with these jackets.

Would you buy one of these jackets knowing that it could degrade like this? under these conditions? I would not!

Regards,
Andrew.

[tryangus]

I know you're probably pretty ticked off but if the jacket hasn't been washed / maintained > build up of sweat and body oils have lead to accelerated wear and you're left with de-lamination of the inner layer.

"Warranty does not cover damage caused by accident, improper care, negligence, normal wear and tear, or the natural breakdown of colors and materials over extended time and use."

Even the best Gore Tex and eVent layers will deteriorate if not cared for and it's important to give your jacket a good wash with a proper tech wash to get rid of sweat/dirt/body oils that otherwise impede the jacket's performance (waterproofness, breathability etc).

Care instructions will be located on the black tag tacked underneath the collar (however I'm a firm believer of this being discussed in depth at the point-of-sale by the salesperson...)

The 'known fault' was bubbling in less critical regions of the jacket. This was a manufacturing fault and would have come to light much sooner after purchase.

Given the yellowing of the PU layer, the extent of the de lamination and the fact your size label is worn, I'd say the de lamination is consistent with not being washed / improper care.

Sorry man.

[Stonie]

@tryangus The point of this thread is to determine if this kind of breakdown is reasonable/common in wider use. The North Face sales staff you mention did not think so... they called it a "known Fault"

Secondly. I would like to warn others to the fact that this can happen to these jackets, with light use. Would you buy one knowing this?
Remembering we are talking about a raincoat in the city - not hiking / heavy perspiration.

EDIT: My wife has arrived home and it has been hand washed as per the label, but only the once.

Regards,
Andrew.

[Stonie]

@tryangus - Have a look at the condition of the jackets exterior. it is not inline with the internal state of affairs.
Note that internally there is no delamination in the armpits? And how are you aware of the "Known Faults" you mention? ... or the relative colors of hyvent?

Attachments

Last edited by Stonie on Sun 16 Jun, 2013 5:28 pm, edited 5 times in total.

[wayno]

it still takes a reasonable amount of use without washing before you should worry about delamination. you can get away with not having to wash polyeurethane membranes after every use.... i've got an event jacket that gets occasional light use and i havent washed it in years. no problem...

[roysta]

I don't generalise on clothing brands as a rule but The North Face is one that I only use for town-type wear.
None of my serious gear is TNF.
OR, Montane, MHW, they're my style.

[wayno]

the best north face gear has been used in the most extreme conditions on earth, above 8000m in winter.. crossing the antarctic (cas and jonesy), their best gear does work well.... gore tex, is gore tex,,,, its not made by the clothing manufacturers its made by gore tex, their top of the line proshell is good material regardless of what company pedals it, the cut of the gear is down to the clothing companies
the "summit series" is their serious outdoor gear, i dont think they use hyvent on that gear, , its all gore tex or neoshell

http://www.thenorthfacejournal.com/gii- ... it-part-1/

http://casandjonesy.com.au/cas-and-jone ... orth-face/

[roysta]

Yes I know that, but I'm speaking personally about my gear and my choices and FOR ME, TNF isn't in the cupboard.
And frankly, I'm satisfied with that.

[wayno]

I didnt choose the venture jacket for my girlfriend, it wouldnt have been my choice, i would have gone for gore tex if i was buying The North Face. i wouldnt go out of my way to avoid the brand, but i would be selective about what i buy if i was buying their gear..... what does put me off about their good gear is, i can buy comparable gear from other brands such as outdoor research as you've mentioned for a lot less. i work near a north face outlet shop. gear thats at least 30% off retail and even then i can get a better deal buying other brands locally let along online overseas....

[tryangus]

@tryangus The point of this thread is to determine if this kind of breakdown is reasonable/common in wider use. The North Face sales staff you mention did not think so... they called it a "known Fault"

I think the breakdown of the inside of the garment is perfectly reasonable given the age and lack of cleaning. Can't really comment on why the TNF staff would say such a thing but in my experience, any faults with such jackets will be painfully obvious a lot earlier in the product's life.

For the record, I think 4 years is a fair innings for a jacket of this type. They certainly last a lot longer with regular cleaning. *shrugs*

Secondly. I would like to warn others to the fact that this can happen to these jackets, with light use. Would you buy one knowing this?
Remembering we are talking about a raincoat in the city - not hiking / heavy perspiration.

I think of greater concern is the 2 year product "lifetime" warranty . You would hope that this isn't the case for higher ticket price items like Gore Tex shells etc. There was some discussion in the media recently about "implied" warranties based on price - a $5000 TV should be covered if it's only a month out of its 12 month warranty.

EDIT: My wife has arrived home and it has been hand washed as per the label, but only the once.

Care to ask her how she washed it? Just a good rinse? Did she use detergent? Tech wash? Still, one wash in 4 years isn't great. My "hack jacket" (the poor thing that lives in the bottom of my pack and only comes out if its raining) gets a good wash/reproof every 6 months or so (or immediately after a particularly grubby ride home...)

@tryangus - Have a look at the condition of the jackets exterior. it is not inline with the internal state of affairs.
Note that internally there is no delamination in the armpits?

You've got me here. Looks in good shape from the images. However, the inside tells a different story. In my experience, the first place to go is generally ontop/behind the shoulders, especially if a backpack of some description has been worn.

And how are you aware of the "Known Faults" you mention? ... or the relative colors of hyvent?

I've sold their product previously. I also own a bit of TNF gear. Like any brand, filter through the crap and you find some truly stella products.

it still takes a reasonable amount of use without washing before you should worry about delamination. you can get away with not having to wash polyeurethane membranes after every use.... i've got an event jacket that gets occasional light use and i havent washed it in years. no problem...

I'm surprised that someone that appears to have so much interest in outdoor gear has such a lax cleaning regime. eVent of all layers should be washed regularly to maintain its waterproofness and breathability. Not only will it clog (leading to decreased breathability performance) but dirt/sweat/body oils will work themselves between the layers and slowly cause de lamination. This is slightly less critical on Gore Tex garments (well, at least those prior to the new Active and Pro layers) as the mebrane is 'sealed' with a thin PU layer which protects it to a greater degree from sweat etc). Still a good idea to give it a solid wash to ensure the DWR layer is working at its best to prevent wetting out in heavy rain.

The Venture is a 2.5 layer garment - unlike eVent which is 'protected' to some degree by the scrim on the inside, HyVent DT only has the 'DT' half layer to separate the PU waterproof layer and the user. Overtime, sweat is easily absorbed into the PU layer and if left long enough, will get between the face fabric and PU layer leading to de lamination.

This is all merely internet speculation - it might very well be faulty but if TNF are unwilling to honour any return/warranty, there isn't a great deal that you can do.

the "summit series" is their serious outdoor gear, i dont think they use hyvent on that gear, , its all gore tex or neoshell

If memory serves, there are a few pieces in HyVent DT and HyVent Alpha in the Summit Series line.

Last edited by tryangus on Mon 17 Jun, 2013 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[wayno]

my lax cleaning regime is only with one jacket, that i only use for work, because it was a complete failure as a bush walking jacket, my macpac. resolution jacket, i couldnt really give a stuff about it, so i pull it out when i need a jacket occasionally around town. i took made a calculation that i just don't sweat in it, i'm wearing long sleeved shirts at work and i would be surprised if enough sweat or skin oil could get to the fabric to damage it, and for what ever reason it's not showing damage after this time, possibly for these reasons.....
my other event jacket i use for bushwalking wash religeousl,y as i do with all my bush walking rainshells, all four of them.... regardless of the membrane, all four have different membranes....

[tryangus]

my lax cleaning regime is only with one jacket, that i only use for work, because it was a complete failure as a bush walking jacket, my macpac. resolution jacket, i couldnt really give a stuff about it, so i pull it out when i need a jacket occasionally around town. i took made a calculation that i just don't sweat in it, i'm wearing long sleeved shirts at work and i would be surprised if enough sweat or skin oil could get to the fabric to damage it, and for what ever reason it's not showing damage after this time, possibly for these reasons.....
my other event jacket i use for bushwalking wash religeousl,y as i do with all my bush walking rainshells, all four of them.... regardless of the membrane, all four have different membranes....

Yeah, fair call bro.

I dare say the Resolution jacket would probably take a little more effort to kill given how thick that outer face fabric is. Holy moly! The eVent layer could completely dissolve and I'd say it would still be waterproof. I seem to recall you mentioning that the breathability on this garment was below par however?

The Venture jacket is a closer (if not identical comparison) to Macpac's "Dispatch" Jacket, both being a 2.5 layer PU-based waterproof jacket.

[wayno]

yup. crap DWR from new. possibly rough surface contributing to holding water on the fabric killing any breathability in constant rain, plus heavy fabric in places. no vents = drowned rat.

[tryangus]

yup. crap DWR from new. possibly rough surface contributing to holding water on the fabric killing any breathability in constant rain, plus heavy fabric in places. no vents = drowned rat.

All the things you want in a wet weather jacket...

[Stonie]

Thanks for all the responses. I have learned a few things.

I think there are some of salient points that have come out of all this

1. Washing frequency is a subjective thing for most people. My Wife only wore this jacket in winter, when its raining with clothes underneath. It does not appear dirty so why would someone wash a seemingly clean jacket? Remembering that these shells are sold and marketed to city people who for the most part don't do any serious outdoor stuff (just like my wife). The North Face store in question is on Pitt street right in the Sydney CBD.

If light use requires heavy washing. A completely counter intuitive notion! why were we not told?

2. The tag does not mention a guide as to washing frequency? @tryangus note that your assumption about the worn tag is probably my fault as the shot above is out of focus (shot at 2.8 )
And without this mythical sales advice you keep mentioning about washing. (And was not mentioned on return either) it's practically impossible for someone without prior experience to know to wash a jacket that looks and smells clean. Seems slightly unrealistic that this is your core argument even if it is true. On top of that you don't offer advice on the frequency either? how about some useful advice?

3. @tryangus the yellowing you describe is probably also another slightly arrogant assumption. Below is a shot of the bottom of the jacket without delamination up to the delaminated section. As far as I recall the off-white/yellow colour is original. if It has discolored it has done so very evenly... either way the color does not appear to relate to the delamination or where you would expect body oils to be.

As a side note: Me on the other hand... I wash my gear (yes in tech wash) because I get it muddy or I walk in it for days. So it gets washed due to its use. Kind of counter intuitive... you would expect the heavily used regularly washed jacket to be coming apart after 4 years even if it is a better membrane. Thats a takeaway for me! now I know.

4. None of this excuses North Face from taking a position on the jacket. They make big claims about their products. If they had come to me and said: “we expect hyvent to only last 4 years even with light use” then I would have said why make jackets out of this junk?@tryangus If they took your angle and said you didn't wash it enough. I would have had a word to say about the lack of advice about washing clean jackets... but they have not done any of these things.

5. Knowing what I know now, on the sum of the product and service I will never buy their gear again. Simple. If I bought 1000s of dollars worth of tent and was treated like this I would be really pissed. Glad I have a Hilleberg.

Regards,
Andrew Stone.

Attachments

Length.JPG (180.86 KiB) Viewed 26154 times

[roysta]

TNF representatives here are crazy.
It's not in their interest to have this type of stuff going on on forums like this.
This should've been headed off at the pass, as they say.
A one off problem can easily be shut down.
Somebody boo booed here.

[Stonie]

I was polite and articulate when dealing with TNF the whole time... not like I was a d*ck about it?

I just want a straight answer?

Stonie.

Last edited by Stonie on Mon 17 Jun, 2013 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Moondog55]

I would advise the TNF office here in OZ that you are considering a claim through the courts system as the garment is quite obviously not fit for purpose. 4 years is honestly ridiculous, I expect to get double or triple that or I whinge all the way to the Consumers Affairs

[wayno]

like i say, my girlfriend doesnt wash her venture jacket after every use, sometimes we are on long holidays and its not practical..
we just wash it at the endof holidays or heavy use and its at least as old as your jacket and the membrane isnt yellow and it looks in perfect condition

[Stonie]

I emailed US support last night, explaining the run around by True Alliance here in Sydney and the location of this thread.
I have also emailed True Alliance again this morning.

I will post the results here.

Cheers,
Stonie.

[Stonie]

True Alliance has come back saying the 'manager' is still too busy to speak with me?

[wayno]

true alliance may not be geared up for customer complaints, the north face itself might be... they are that big they should have some system in place. true alliance are more distributors with the odd shop. but if they dont have a decent system in place for complaints which they dont seem to have then you get whats happening now...
in a decent system your complaint should be loged in a database of some sort so it has visibility, ideally a call managment sytem that has deadlines for being actions and queues to send to the right people, but if true alliance arent that big then they may not work like that just relying on emails and emails are inefficient for working with ongoing situations, they and phone calls can just disappear in the system. unfortunately in that situation the procedure can end up being to keep nagging about your issue, so they may end up oiling the squeaky wheel. but going direct to the north face is another string to your bow as well....

[Stonie]

The Original guy I spoke to at True Alliance (Shahab Shafiee) has come back and only now has now has he asked that I post the jacket to True Alliance.

This 'manager' never surfaced... not sure what to make of that... No matter, hopefully this time they can make a decision in regards to the jacket?

Regards,
Andrew Stone.