Private Search Party for missing bushwalker Mt Koscuiskzo

[wayno]

when a search is conducted , you scour the ground for evidence, we dont know how many items the searchers have had to collect to be analysed, bits of rubbish that have to be looked at and a decision made as to whether its relevant or not to the search. the more items that have to be analysed the greater the chance of over looking items... theres always a risk of getting it wrong, especially on popular walking tracks where you can have all sorts of items dropped on the track or blown around mountain tops every man made item has to be looked for and looked at.... we dont know how many items had to be sifted through. search coordinators have to keep managing all the searchers movements and communicate with searchers.... and that goes on for days or weeks for long hours....
chances of something getting missed creep in with time.... maybe thats still not an excuse as part of tehir systems but its part of human nature to be fallable when you're tired and busy...

[Travis22]

Posted on the families FB search page earlier today:


Hi,

Just wanted to thank everyone in Jindabyne for their help and support over the last 2+ months.

Unfortunately, we are returning back home without Prabh. But the search will still continue.

[colinm]

That may be face-saving, and healthy. Elsewhere I read they were continuing in September. If that's so, then that's pretty reasonable, you could even look at it as a memorial service.

[stepbystep]

I'll just make this comment.

No matter what journey we are on in this life, it is guaranteed to be different to the next person.
Whenever anybody has troubles we go through various stages, denial, grief, anger, acceptance etc. All of these stages are different for any individual and we are all affected by those around us, influencing us and convincing us as to a course of action that may seem entirely logical at the time.
Hindsight, when in a different stage of processing emotions and events will expose our various reactions as illogical and quite frankly bizarre. It's very easy to sit back, emotionally removed from a situation and pass judgement. Not only have I been guilty of this but I've been in the middle of it.
I'd encourage everyone to bare this in mind whenever you encounter people who's judgement is skewed. Life(and death) ain't easy.

I'm hoping Prabh's family are coming to terms with their situation, whatever that is, and can find some solace in the knowledge they have explored the possibilities.

[bushwackt]

I'll just make this comment.

No matter what journey we are on in this life, it is guaranteed to be different to the next person.
Whenever anybody has troubles we go through various stages, denial, grief, anger, acceptance etc. All of these stages are different for any individual and we are all affected by those around us, influencing us and convincing us as to a course of action that may seem entirely logical at the time.
Hindsight, when in a different stage of processing emotions and events will expose our various reactions as illogical and quite frankly bizarre. It's very easy to sit back, emotionally removed from a situation and pass judgement. Not only have I been guilty of this but I've been in the middle of it.
I'd encourage everyone to bare this in mind whenever you encounter people who's judgement is skewed. Life(and death) ain't easy.

I'm hoping Prabh's family are coming to terms with their situation, whatever that is, and can find some solace in the knowledge they have explored the possibilities.

Well said.

This was probably one of the toughest personal choices they've ever had to make, and one of the bravest.
It's great spiritual courage as well.

I wish them well.

[Nuts]

That may be face-saving, and healthy. Elsewhere I read they were continuing in September. If that's so, then that's pretty reasonable, you could even look at it as a memorial service.

With any luck they will find him in September. Fwiw, I have read back through your comments and they are well presented, also recall that you tried to steer the conversation to another topic. I'll admit, (to me at least) it would have been less discomforting with a broader discussion held elsewhere.

[slowshoe]

Colinm in answer to your question I am unsure of who approached Tom first but I do know he was interviewed by the police, so I would assume they had first contact. But I do know the Family also contacted him as well, for what I am unsure

Strider also asked the question about why they are continuing the search? they sort of are but they are searching the lower areas of the western fall wilderness, mainly the Geehi river and the tributaries that flow into it. But only at the lower elevations. But the search is fully closed and I know of no searchers on the ground (I think I was one of the last to leave)

I also noticed some bad words about the Police and ending the official search early, it may be true they called the search off but in saying that I did meet some Police at the Opera house on the 18/6 and they where searching Lady Nortcotes creek, so although the official search had ended the Police still continued. The strange thing about Lady Northcotes is the difficulty in seeing anything, The Police wore Hi vis yellow clothing and me and my partner was wearing Hi vis orange vest (oranges and lemons in the bush) and we would have passed very close to each other but neither saw or heard the others

Colinm also commented on the Police not checking for DNA on a bottle apparently they did but there was no DNA to be found, but you must remember that not all people are secretors of DNA. Approximately 80% of the general population are secretors and 20% are nonsecretors. Maybe Prabh was a nonsecretor.
As to the phone use coordinates I am unsure of when they received them but I do know that the phone company gave 2 different Ping areas with the last location of Ping being the most likely, but radio frequency is a strange thing and can't be relied on as fact.
It is true the Police did not find the laptop under the front seat of the car, the family found it when they did a private search of the vehicle, they also found a receipt from Woolies in Jindy of what he bought before he went out.
But we must remember when we say Police it is NOT the actual front line troops that make the decision but the incident controller, the Police I spoke too were eager to continue searching, but they have to follow orders.

There was comments about people being inexperienced and that the family did not care or vet the volunteer, I am unsure of what happened before I arrived, but when I arrived to help they seemed to have a rough idea of the experience that was required, as they had been searching themselves. And it was up to the individual team leaders to do the vetting, this I know as fact as I was a leader and I would not take anybody that was not up to the task, and one way to determine if they are is to have a look at the gear they have it's age and usage, as well as a general talk about what they had done as well as informing them of the truthful difficulties that may be encountered.

As to the payment of volunteers I myself did not accept any payment, but in saying that any equipment I broke during the search the family replaced, in fact it cost me to do the search. And there are others that I know that did not accept the stipend.
And the people of spoke to were not interested in the reward as we were not mercenaries. Like the saying goes "Bad things happen when good people do nothing"
I first spent 20 days on the search then came home for a rest and went back down for a further 7 days, I will probably go back in the Spring if they require me.
This is getting too long so I will finish it with this. There are 3 types of people in the world the first person knows something is happening and does something about it, the second person knows something is happening but does nothing and the third does not know anything is happening.
On this occasion I could be that first person as I have spent years in that area and know it well.
The people on the forum are also first persons as discussing it is doing something.
Final footnote Hannels track is well marked and trodden as there have been a lot of travel up and down it over the last few weeks

[GPSGuided]

...but you must remember that not all people are secretors of DNA. Approximately 80% of the general population are secretors and 20% are nonsecretors. Maybe Prabh was a nonsecretor...

I think this requires some elaboration and references.

[matagi]

...but you must remember that not all people are secretors of DNA. Approximately 80% of the general population are secretors and 20% are nonsecretors. Maybe Prabh was a nonsecretor...

I think this requires some elaboration and references.

Secretor/non-secretor status refers to the secretion of blood group proteins not DNA. It is a forensic analysis method that precedes modern-day DNA testing and is not in common use these days. The reason they were unable to obtain DNA may have been due to the fact that there was too little material present for analysis, particularly if this was a bottle that had been exposed to the elements for an appreciable length of time.

[GPSGuided]

Thank you Matagi in helping to dismiss a false statement, one that sounded like the third type of people Slowshoe talked about - "does not know".

[wayno]

thanks very much for your response slowshoe. its good to have someone who was involved first hand with the search to clarify things

[perfectlydark]

Dna testing a bottle to me just seems rediculously expensive and wouldnt really say much anyway even if it was his

[slowshoe]

Wayno it is my pleasure to inform the forum of what I saw and heard, but as this is a public forum I have not given ALL the information as IMO some should not be made public.
Matagi and GPSGuided I also thank-you for correcting my mistake on DNA secretion.
If there are any further questions do not hesitate to ask, but my reply may be delayed as I am headed back to my wife and mistress (Kosciuszko National Park).

[colinm]

Colinm in answer to your question I am unsure of who approached Tom first

Thanks for your considered and detailed response to the questions asked about this issue.

I believe that the youtube poster of the videos in which you appeared was approached via youtube comment, by Sydney Coast Walks, is that so?

Sydney Coast Walks are the people using Wattamolla as a private and exclusive campsite as described here viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14219 and are doing a great job, according to SteveJ.

I leave others to their personal judgements about the propriety of such contact and procurement (presuming that both did in fact occur,) but am curious as to whether they were paid a spotter's fee for the service. I don't know, but I wonder if you know.

Colin.

[colinm]

I was wrong. Sydney Coast Walkers were not the people who approached the youtube video poster, it was K7 Adventures: "Acacia Rose 2 months ago Hi Tom - great vision. Could you email K7 Adventures please: SMS: ********. We need to talk to you about your trip and the conditions. It's about the dates and the ongoing search. Thank you."

The mistake was due to my having seen the Sydney Coast Walkers retweeting some of the search posts, and confusing the two.

I am still curious about whether the companies involved were remunerated.

***Part of this post has been removed by a site moderator***

[kanangra]

Huh? Do I see a grassy knoll?

K.

[colinm]

Huh? Do I see a grassy knoll?

Hah! If you could see it, it wouldn't be the *real* grassy knoll

[colinm]

See, kanangra? You thought you saw a grassy knoll, but now it's gone

[Travis22]

Glad i got to read your post before it was censored Colin.

Travis.

[north-north-west]

Final footnote Hannels track is well marked and trodden as there have been a lot of travel up and down it over the last few weeks

***BAD TASTE ALERT***
Well, at least there's one good thing to come out of all this.

[Onestepmore]

Has the search been reopened with spring thaw?

[matagi]

From the facebook page, it would seem yes.

[slowshoe]

I have just returned from Kosciuszko Park and I shall be writing a report for the forum tomorrow
.

[GPSGuided]

Youtube.com is the obvious option, and help GOOG's stock price. Otherwise Vimeo.com. Even Facebook hosts videos these days...

[thelittlemonkey]

Looks like there's a new team from Canada coming

As found on CBC

"As the snow finally melts in the Australian mountains where hiker Prabhdeep Srawn disappeared last May, his family is sending an expert team of B.C. search and rescue professionals to look for him.

Srawn's family is financing an expedition of 18 search and rescue professionals, most of whom cut their teeth in the rugged mountains of B.C., to New South Wales for an intensive two-week search beginning on Dec. 1. The team members are all volunteering their time.

Srawn, 25, a former military reservist in Hamilton, was last seen heading out for a bushwalk in Kosciuszko National Park. Search efforts by Australian crews, as well as by Srawn's own family, have turned up no sign of him so far. The B.C. team will hone in on several locations, including the mountainous Hannel's pass area.

Some in the Srawn family, who live in Brampton, Ont., are optimistic about this one last effort to find their loved one.

"The hope is to ultimately put an end to this search and find my cousin," said Ruby Singh-Sahota.

"The unknown is very difficult," Singh-Sahota said. "It's hard for me … there's a lot of mixed emotions."

Martin Colwell, President of the Vancouver-based company SAR Technology, is the search manager.

Colwell, who has over 30 years of experience in the search and rescue field, told CBC Hamilton his first step will be to divide the search area up. From there, relying on a mathematical system that factors in a range of geographic and weather conditions, the team to specific zones. "You want to extract the best coverage," Colwell said.

The search team comes from a province that averages 1,000 search and rescue calls a year.

But Colwell cautions while some of Kosciuszko's flat, boulder-covered areas will be relatively easy for the B.C. team to scour, others, like dense brush-covered land and mountain gullies, will be more difficult.

Given how long Srawn, who Colwell calls "Prab," has been missing, there will be a "safety limit" to the lengths the team will go to.

Finding Srawn is a "doable" mission, Colwell says, pointing out his team will probably get around 60 search assignments done while they're there.

Singh-Sahota, meanwhile, said the family is optimistic this search will get results. Unlike previous searches, which were day-to-day, this effort will be more organized — focusing on two of Kosciuszko National Park's tallest peaks, Mt. Kosciuszko and Mt. Townsend. Srawn had intended to summit both before he went missing.

The Srawn family is paying for the search team's travel and expenses. They had previously offered a $50,000 reward to anyone who could find him alive"

[GPSGuided]

18 members from BC, Canada and Srawn's family is paying their travel and expenses for 2 weeks? Wow, they sure have money! At a minimum of $6000/member, that's going to be well north of $100k.

[Strider]

Probably digging deeper and deeper into debt...

[wayno]

well one person commented earlier, that there may be the possibility they are pouring so many resources into the search because they need the body to claim on any life insurance policy... at least it would pay for the search and they would have got the body back as well. ask anyone who's lost a loved one who has never found the body, it's hard to find closure without the body or knowing their final resting place... family of the coal miners trapped in a nz coal mine fire some time ago have never given up wanting the bodies back years later.... i know someone who never came back from the mountains, he's never been found, even a trained sar dog couldnt find any trace despite knowing his route... it's not a nice scenario to deal with...

[slowshoe]

Lets hope they do not damage the bush like a previous team did
I think I shall upload a short video of what happened in the western fall wilderness.
I shall let you know where I post it.

The family also paid for 4 Canadian people to search in the last 2 weeks.
Wait till the new people see the monkey scrub

[miktherocker]

Hi all, this is my first post on the forum. I've been lurking a bit, planning walks and such, but came across this thread and thought I'd better comment. I personally know the dog team that was deployed with the young Canadian army lads. I don't speak for them or their organisation, but seeing as they've copped much flak from a few armchair critics here, I'd like to defend them and put things straight.

Elke & Peter are a couple in their 60's who run a SAR dog organisation in Victoria. Elke & Peter brought Swiss Search Dog methods to Australia, and have worked hard to have some sort of international standard recognised here. Elke is German, Peter is Austrian, and both have a lifetime of experience hiking in alpine conditions. Their dog Jochen, is one of the most highly trained and experienced search dogs in the country. I've seen him work and he is a remarkable - highly intelligent, focused and hard working. Has to be seen to be believed really, but he know's exactly what he's doing, and he'll find you even if you're hidden in a box, in a pipe, underground, half a mile away.

For the record, the Canadian boys did cut branches to build a shelter, attempt to light fires, and caused a bit of damage searching. They were not briefed, and were not sensitive to... well, respect for our National Parks. Elke and Peter were upset by this behaviour, and cracked it at them about the shelter. To be fair to the Canadians, they were a bunch of well meaning lads, out in very foreign and difficult country, looking for their friend in pretty nasty conditions.

Nobody was being paid. It was not an 'adventure holiday' or a fun filled 'photo opportunity'. It was difficult and dangerous, and they did some good work in very trying conditions.

Search organisers were, as suspected, completely disorganised, unprepared and unpredictable, and yes, they were putting people at risk when they shouldn't have been. Perhaps I'd do the same if it was my kid. For Elke and Peter, it was a chance to gain some operational experience in an alpine national park, and they knew what they were doing, so they went.

The fact that Jochen alerted strongly near a key position (the mobile phone ping) should have been taken as a serious lead, but this apparently was lost on the search organisers. Some fresh dogs did come in from NZ, but they were poorly trained, and too soft to deal with the scrub and the conditions - the NZ handlers chose to ignore Elke's advice in order to go searching somewhere 'easier'.

Elke and Peter would like to go back and pick up where they left off, but snakes and dogs do not mix, so we'll see. Technically, Jochen is not a cadaver dog, being trained to search for the scent of living people, but he's also smart enough to 'look' for anything that is different - in Kinglake after Black Saturday, amongst the overpowering smell of 'burnt', he found human bones in a bath tub under a pile of ash, and they have no idea how he did that.

One good dog is worth a hundred or more people searching. Unfortunately few people in Australian SAR and emergency services understand that, and even fewer people train dogs, and themselves, to that level. Elke? She's old enough to be your mum and she's out there getting snowed into a tent with a dog, searching the Kosciuszko scrub in high Winter for a lost guy. Respect hey? Where it's due I reckon...