Mapping out handy locations on bushwalk.com

[wildwalks]

Oh it's not you, it's me. When I joined this forum it was far friendlier. there was no advertising, it 'felt' nicer....that is all.

If it is the ads (or something else) - then please start a new thread and raise the issue -- I am happy to discuss it and try to find a solution.
When I started managing this site the ads where in place - I have tried to keep them relevant but if they may life miserable then we can look at removing them.
(though this seems different from the original issue of me selling some information on an app??)

Matt

[perfectlydark]

Probably off topic but there are ways tp fund a site, like donations etc?

[Zone-5]

Secrecy seemingly is the main game here so I believe this topic is doomed to endless rounds of the "not in my backyard" bravado!

I've been posting around the site asking walkers to log their water finds only to have senior members chime in to warn them off doing it!

Honestly, it's not very encouraging..

[Nuts]

I doubt the irony is lost to many here Matt that we have a publisher interested in geo-taggs from the angle that they may be used to save us from 'people like him' While I think there's nothing wrong with making a $ from our outdoors suspicion must surely be expected?

By similar measure it's probably not lost that we have an inexperienced bushwalker showing support.

Iv'e spent some time around Megalong but don't know that track. It would be fair to assume that the hazards (to walkers and the environment) would be on another level for any similar track walk down here? Even so, 'points of interest' may hide a chance to learn something (and yeah, I struggle with the notion that such things are necessary to pander for those without the time or interest in learning).

On occasion over the past few days iv'e tried to imagine the benefit on any track I know, even (or perhaps especially) for the inexperienced. Eg. To be 'helpful' do you tagg Pelion Pass or get a close up from the turd field surrounding it? (rough description I know, perhaps mitigated if you've had the experience of carrying night-soilings down from the next place people loosen their big-day-breakfast waist belts). Maybe tagg the toilet back at Pelion with a pot-pot message?

[frenchy_84]

Secrecy seemingly is the main game here so I believe this topic is doomed to endless rounds of the "not in my backyard" bravado!

I've been posting around the site asking walkers to log their water finds only to have senior members chime in to warn them off doing it!

Honestly, it's not very encouraging..

To be fair you did ask for coordinates on the hardest peak in the state. Perhaps if you need to be lead to within a few metres of water that isnt the walk for you

[Nuts]

tastrax went to the trouble of embedding a map. The usual response, from someone who really appreciated the info, would be to say thanks.

[MickyB]

The usual response, from someone who really appreciated the info, would be to say thanks.

Unfortunately that happens too often on this site. To me it's common courtesy to say thanks to someone who has shared some info or helped answer a question.

[doogs]

Secrecy seemingly is the main game here so I believe this topic is doomed to endless rounds of the "not in my backyard" bravado!

It appears that you are the only person who is unwilling to acknowledge that there are National Parks usage guidelines that should be adhered to. There is no bravado at all mate, just plain and simple respect (which you continually seem to be lacking for both these rules and for the opinions others on this forum). Please try reading some of the material that has been offered to you on several occasions throughout this thread which will help understand mine and others stand point.

[taswegian]

To be fair you did ask for coordinates on the hardest peak in the state. Perhaps if you need to be lead to within a few metres of water that isnt the walk for you

What has been going through my mind is the level of detail and its accuracy that is required to correctly get to a certain location via given coordinates.

If you posted coords as 43.2714° S, 146.4756° E and say that was somewhere on Federation or any other similar peak, the high chances are you may well be led off the cliff face altogether. The consequences of lesser number of decimal places or a transcription error in posting doesn't bear thinking about on confined mountain tops.
Now suppose its foggy and hot or dark and you blindly follow the GPS it could well be to your oblivion.
My concern on these sort of places is who vets the accuracy? It could be life or death if you need water, but death may be by means other than dehydration.
I'm not trying to be smart or dramatising, but I spend a reasonable amount of my (paid) time correcting other peoples work that has inherent spatial errors and are thus plain wrong.

Now if you only want coordinates along a well known track in a popular walk along a seaside coast then the consequences are probably not so dramatic.

You may say, "Yeh! Who'd be dumb enough to walk off the edge?"
I guess these things happen. GPS in cars leave them suspended over the end of dead end roads, or in one recent case stuck way out in the middle of a tidal estuary or something like that.
The same sort of people that blindly follow their trusted GPS in the car will also blindly follow their trusted Etrex, Montana etc to wherever it says 'that point' is.

Just something else to throw into the melting pot.
Yes it could be useful if well done , but like Doogs said, this discussion has aroused a few Tasmanians in particular and probably because we live here, we know the conditions and the regulations, which much of is good and there to protect those special places in the best possible way and yet allow us to have the privilege and the benefits that go with that when we access them.

[Zone-5]

Now suppose its foggy and hot or dark and you blindly follow the GPS it could well be to your oblivion.

Not so taswegian!

I have quite successfully used the Garmin BaseCamp Route Planner with my Etrex 20 to guide us out of a sudden low visibility white-out on a winter picnic hike at Dinner Plain. Towards the end there was no visible horizon in scrub and it was getting late with bad light.

37.0300° S, 147.2790° E



Here are 2 Garmin screen shots from that day's 20 km picnic hike. I used these screens to navigate directly to the pick-up point we had arranged. Visibility in the car at the end of the hike was down to 5-10 metres (picture above)!




Oh and yes I did just follow the arrow for most of the time, deviation was about 2-3 metres from where I had to meet the car. Etrex Routes at hi resolution (1 metre) will take me almost step by step with every turn included on the path. It's very good system if you know how to use it properly!

At Dinner Plain, in a blizzard, things can get confusing very quickly. Especially if you need cheap serviced accommodation because you won't find it at Dinner Plain!

[photohiker]

You may say, "Yeh! Who'd be dumb enough to walk off the edge?"
I guess these things happen. GPS in cars leave them suspended over the end of dead end roads, or in one recent case stuck way out in the middle of a tidal estuary or something like that.
The same sort of people that blindly follow their trusted GPS in the car will also blindly follow their trusted Etrex, Montana etc to wherever it says 'that point' is.

The car instances are amusing and potentially hazardous, I agree. Handheld at walking pace on a personally pre-planned gps route I have difficulty accepting that people will be walking off cliffs.

The GPS/vehicle errors are generally because the GPS plotted a route automatically and the driver trusted that route. That is not a common methodology with handheld GPS use.

[taswegian]

Photohiker I accept your comments but "and the driver trusted that route" (your quote) and "The same sort of people that blindly follow their trusted GPS in the car will also blindly follow their trusted Etrex, Montana etc to wherever it says 'that point' is". (my quote) are the same sort of people.
You can't cover all bases, but where is the lowest common denominator?

Zone-5 Etrex Routes at hi resolution (1 metre) will take me almost step by step with every turn included on the path. It's very good system if you know how to use it properly!
With respect they are only handhelds. Yes you can expect anything with those things. That has been thrashed to death on another post.
My RTK (Survey grade GPS) has landed me some ridiculous 'fixes' and any surveyor can attest to that.
Have you heard of solar interference? Just for starters.
Personally that statement is the very thing that concerns me and with respect an unqualified view by me, could be perhaps you don't fully understand what makes it all tick and how reliable (accurate) are they.
So that directs me back to my opening sentence and the type of people that 'reliably' use these devices and with regular use can throw any caution to the wind.

[photohiker]

Photohiker I accept your comments but "and the driver trusted that route" (your quote) and "The same sort of people that blindly follow their trusted GPS in the car will also blindly follow their trusted Etrex, Montana etc to wherever it says 'that point' is". (my quote) are the same sort of people.
You can't cover all bases, but where is the lowest common denominator?

The lowest common denominator is HOW the GPS Route was created. That was my point. The two scenarios sound similar, but they are not the same.

[wildwalks]

The lowest common denominator

The lowest common denominator is very very low -- why would anyone want to pitch to the LCD. Surely there is an opportunity to educate and lift the majority of peoples understanding. Is that not the idea of this forum?
There will always be people making the news for extreme stupidity. But how about the majority of other people who have the ability to learn, grow and act responsibly?

The map proposed is about helping people know what stuff they might find on a popular walk. A walk with a clear and maintained track.
The majority of bushwalking happens on clear and well defined tracks - it may not be where the majority of us walk, but we are the minority in this case.

Matt

[Zone-5]

Have you heard of solar interference? Just for starters.
Personally that statement is the very thing that concerns me and with respect an unqualified view by me, could be perhaps you don't fully understand what makes it all tick and how reliable (accurate) are they.

In short, YES, I know the limitations of all of my equipment.

I am very aware of the limited effects of solar interference but 24 satellites does even it all out. Here is my space weather monitor that sit on my computer desktop. It accesses the US Boulder space tracking facility for direct solar storm warnings.




Similarly if the local shire were to set up a local GPS differential beacon for hikers, then the hand-held GPS accuracy would be in the range of 0.5 - 1.0 meters at worst!

During the last Gulf war, US soldiers were issued with consumer grade Garmin and Trimble hand-helds because they ran out of military spec units. So they beefed up L1 band to the same accuracy as L2 giving sub metre accuracy world wide! My Garmin at home was accurate to within a metre for the entire time reinforcing my confidence in the technology..

But you know this anyway, so why are you doing your worst?

Last edited by Zone-5 on Mon 27 Jan, 2014 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[frenchy_84]

Similarly if the local shire were to set up a local GPS differential beacon for hikers, then the handheld GPS accuracy would be in the range of .5 - 2 meters at worst!

Really? which consumer grade handhelp GPS units can handle differential GPS?

So they beefed up L1 band to the same accuracy as L2 giving sub metre accuracy world wide!

Really, How is this possbile? did they turn it up to 11?

[Zone-5]

Similarly if the local shire were to set up a local GPS differential beacon for hikers, then the handheld GPS accuracy would be in the range of .5 - 2 meters at worst!

Really? which consumer grade handhelp GPS units can handle differential GPS?

So they beefed up L1 band to the same accuracy as L2 giving sub metre accuracy world wide!

Really, How is this possbile? did they turn it up to 11?

In Australia WAAS satellites are too far away so you have to plug in a separate differential receiver for this unit which I have. Then you use that receiver for input into the Etrex to access DIFF reception. A bit like what every boat GPS has.

Oh and this has nothing to do with Selective Availability that was removed by the US decades ago.

Last edited by Zone-5 on Mon 27 Jan, 2014 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[frenchy_84]

Im serious, please backup your statements with fact becuase at the moment they are coming across as complete BS. "beefed up L1" WT *$&# does that mean? If your refering to the removal of selective availabilty then that has nothing to do the accuracy of L1 vs L2

[Zone-5]

Really? which consumer grade handhelp GPS units can handle differential GPS?

All of them buddy, even on my Etrex H! Remember the first yellow (avatar) and the most basic one!

http://www.berndmargotte.com/technical/ ... ng_en.html

[Zone-5]

Im serious, please backup your statements with fact becuase at the moment they are coming across as complete BS.

Here you go!



All your questions to my so called "lies" can be answered here.

http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/wgarmin.htm

Last edited by Zone-5 on Mon 27 Jan, 2014 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[frenchy_84]

For DGPS

In order to get the corrected signal, users must have a differential beacon receiver and beacon antenna in addition to their GPS

http://www8.garmin.com/aboutGPS/

I did find reading about WAAS interesting and am amazed that it does not cost anything, as there are plenty of geostationary satellite correction services out there already but their subscription costs are large.

While your link was very imformative it still does not answer how did “they beefed up L1”

[Zone-5]

While your link was very imformative it still does not answer how did “they beefed up L1”

Ok, it's a big subject and you should really do your own search on this but here it is..

http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/signals.htm

[wildwalks]

Okay way off topic now. If you wish to carry on a discussion about GPS accuracy then please move it to another thread. On a related note - please be more kind and friendly to each other. Even if you think the other person is wrong - you can still must be friendly about it.
Matt

[Zone-5]

Glad to get back on topic but I understand totally why some need to ask.




I'm only too happy to provide the off site link (http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/index.htm) to answer questions but remember GPS is only another tool to use in navigation. Handhelds do some things very well while others not so well.

If you think to rely completely on GPS you will not get the very best results! If instead you use GPS combined with an accurate map and a good compass then you and your party can hike in complete confidence of your location.

[Nuts]

At least you know how to use a gps. that's

Screen Shot 2014-01-28 at 5.01.49 PM.png

Just remember to look up now and then coz .99m just ain't gonna cut it!

Screen Shot 2014-01-28 at 5.04.06 PM.png

And as we all know, when it comes to cliffs, accuracy isn't academic-

Screen Shot 2014-01-28 at 5.01.24 PM.png

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

[Nuts]

The map proposed is about helping people know what stuff they might find on a popular walk. A walk with a clear and maintained track.
The majority of bushwalking happens on clear and well defined tracks - it may not be where the majority of us walk, but we are the minority in this case.

Matt

It is heartening to see that the idea indeed is 'evolving'. I was almost beside myself thinking that you were just going to allow this... willy-nilly.

[neilmny]

The map proposed is about helping people know what stuff they might find on a popular walk. A walk with a clear and maintained track.
The majority of bushwalking happens on clear and well defined tracks - it may not be where the majority of us walk, but we are the minority in this case.

Matt

It is heartening to see that the idea indeed is 'evolving'. I was almost beside myself thinking that you were just going to allow this... willy-nilly.

Were you Nuts, gee we hadn't noticed

[Nuts]

Well I thought I was.. though I'm feeling much better about myself recently. thanks

[neilmny]

Glad to hear Nuts.

[doogs]

The map proposed is about helping people know what stuff they might find on a popular walk. A walk with a clear and maintained track.
The majority of bushwalking happens on clear and well defined tracks - it may not be where the majority of us walk, but we are the minority in this case.

Matt

It is heartening to see that the idea indeed is 'evolving'. I was almost beside myself thinking that you were just going to allow this... willy-nilly.

+1. I didn't realise I was sooo passionate about the Tasmanian Wilderness until this thread popped up...