Stop injuries and deaths on the Overland Track

[hillster]

People get injured and die not from just this track but others as well. Any government requirement to curb injuries or death on the Overland Track would flow onto other tracks as well. That would be a huge cost to any State Government I feel.

If you get bus drivers to check the gear of his/her passengers and give them the OK and something goes wrong will that driver be responsible for their injuries or death?

Even though a person new to hiking might have gone out and purchased all the good gear it may be of little use if they do not know how to use it. That said, do the bus drivers then have to give an exam to the intended hikers to make sure they know how to use the equipment?

I can see as to where the suggestion is coming from but I think it would be unfair to burden that kind or responsibility on bus drivers even if they are trained up.

Perhaps before you go you have to show that you have some type of insurance so that if you do get injured and need to be flown out then it will be paid for by the insurance companies and not left up to the State Government or a Department to fit the bill.

[neilmny]

All very good points hillster.

[wayno]

well the system of refusing to take ill equipped people works on the tongariro alpine crossing, its not rocket science, if they are wearing street clothes and carrying a tiny pack and say they dont have wet weather gear and a warm layer of clothes and the forecast isnt great, then they are going to be rejected. there havent been rescues needed for hypothermia for two years since all the transport services agreed to refuse to take people who were obviously ill equipped... at the end of the day the walker still has to take responsibility for themselves and someone might fall through the cracks but by and large the system seems to be working since the no of hypothermia rescues has evaporated. the biggest risk group now is those taking private transport...

[wayno]

its not a problem for this company shuttling people to the tongariro crossing to do a compulsory gear inspection and reject anyone who doesnt have the minimum gear.

http://www.discovery.net.nz/Activities/ ... ssing.html

Minimum Gear Requirements
Waterproof Jacket (we can lend you a jacket if need be)
Plenty of warm layers
Sturdy footwear
Sun protection
Food & water
Map (we provide you with a free topographical map)

Also recommended:
Torch or Head Lamp
Warm hats & gloves
First Aid Kit
Mobile Phone

Note: You must have the Minimum Gear. This will be checked before you enter the bus.

[neilmny]

Very different in NZ Wayno, over here we are not necessarily responsible for our own actions and choices
where in UNZED people are, you choose the risk you choose the possible disaster. Here the lawyers will find
someone else to blame somewhat US style....it's crap basically.

[wayno]

Very different in NZ Wayno, over here we are not necessarily responsible for our own actions and choices
where in UNZED people are, you choose the risk you choose the possible disaster. Here the lawyers will find
someone else to blame somewhat US style....it's crap basically.

ah i see. here we have govt agency, ACC, accident compensation corporation that supposedly provides financial compensation but removes the right to suit through the courts.... although getting the compensation your'e due from ACC is often a nightmare, their real role is to avoid paying out if they can find any little loophole to deny you money...

[north-north-west]

I think its high time that something serious is done about keeping people safe along the cradle cirque section. Perhaps someone should be stationed at Kitchen Hut? No one should pass Kitchen Hut in a pair of thongs, pair of jeans, no waterproof gear etc etc. You can place as many notice boards up all over the place as you want, but to have a more effective system somebody needs to be up there all the time.

The only way to stop injuries and deaths on the Overland Track is to close it completely.

Which sums it all up.
Honestly, it's not that far from Kitchen to Waterfall. It's not that bad a bit of track. If you're sensible, properly prepared and without serious health complications it's not dangerous.
Jeebers, why can't people just grow up and take responsibility for their own actions? It's not TasPAWS fault if people are too ignorant or lazy or used to being mollycoddled to read the signs and make appropriate decisions.

[dazfromtaz]

I think its high time that something serious is done about keeping people safe along the cradle cirque section. Perhaps someone should be stationed at Kitchen Hut? No one should pass Kitchen Hut in a pair of thongs, pair of jeans, no waterproof gear etc etc. You can place as many notice boards up all over the place as you want, but to have a more effective system somebody needs to be up there all the time.

The only way to stop injuries and deaths on the Overland Track is to close it completely.

Which sums it all up.
Honestly, it's not that far from Kitchen to Waterfall. It's not that bad a bit of track. If you're sensible, properly prepared and without serious health complications it's not dangerous.
Jeebers, why can't people just grow up and take responsibility for their own actions? It's not TasPAWS fault if people are too ignorant or lazy or used to being mollycoddled to read the signs and make appropriate decisions.

My point is simple, protect the unprepared and foolish. We've all seen them on the track and we've all shook our heads when they walk past us. Build more emergency huts and make signage more visible. I think its shameful that some people have this "F*** them" attitude.

[dazfromtaz]

Dazintaz, have you walked the OTL? There are three huts within an hour from the cradle cirque area. I don't even DOC can beat that! :p

3 huts within 1 hr hey? wow, with speed like that you would do the OT in 2 nights? and yes Ive walked it seven times.

[north-north-west]

The only way to stop injuries and deaths on the Overland Track is to close it completely.

Which sums it all up.
Honestly, it's not that far from Kitchen to Waterfall. It's not that bad a bit of track. If you're sensible, properly prepared and without serious health complications it's not dangerous.
Jeebers, why can't people just grow up and take responsibility for their own actions? It's not TasPAWS fault if people are too ignorant or lazy or used to being mollycoddled to read the signs and make appropriate decisions.

My point is simple, protect the unprepared and foolish. We've all seen them on the track and we've all shook our heads when they walk past us. Build more emergency huts and make signage more visible. I think its shameful that some people have this "F*** them" attitude.

Are you aware of the meaning of my signature? You can't protect people from themselves all their lives - unless you want them to remain pampered children until their cotton-wool-wrapped deaths from advanced senility.
It is simply not possible to prevent everyone, always, from making the decision that will kill them. Even an hermetically sealed walkway all the way from Ronny Creek to Cynthia Bay won't stop people from dying, because there is always the chance of someone going in there with a lethal medical condition - whether they are aware of it or not. Even a ranger with advanced emergency medical training tagging along with each and every walker couldn't prevent the possibility of a death. The only thing that would make sure of it is, as matagi said, to close the area completely.
And then people will simply go somewhere else, make the same stupid/ignorant/unfortunate decisions, and wind up dead anyway. So what then?

[north-north-west]

Dazintaz, have you walked the OTL? There are three huts within an hour from the cradle cirque area. I don't even DOC can beat that! :p

3 huts within 1 hr hey? wow, with speed like that you would do the OT in 2 nights? and yes Ive walked it seven times.

Rangers Hut just below the Face Track, Kitchen Hut just below the Summit Track, and Waterfall Valley. And you don't have to be super quick or super fit to get to one from the cirque within an hour. Plus anyone walking the OLT should be carrying a tent anyway and there are plenty of places up there where it's possible to pitch if necessary. All it takes is appropriate gear, a little knowledge and some common sense.

edit: And I forgot Scott-Kilvert. That makes four emergency shelters already available within an hour's walk of the cirque.

[icefest]

Dazintaz, have you walked the OTL? There are three huts within an hour from the cradle cirque area. I don't even DOC can beat that! :p

3 huts within 1 hr hey? wow, with speed like that you would do the OT in 2 nights? and yes Ive walked it seven times.

How slow do you walk?

[matagi]

What about Scott-Kilvert? That would be within an hour too, wouldn't it?

EDIT: Ah, I see you edited your post NNW.

[dee_legg]

Cheers icefest and north-north-west. Dazintaz, I based my timing estimate on what I have experienced when working on the OLT as a guide. Our groups tend to move slower than the average independent group but even so, we still manage to move between Kitchen Hut and Waterfall Valley in about two hours walking time.

[Nuts]

I'd agree, an hour or so from anywhere. Not injured, it could take longer then, but it is shorter than an hour just to get to shelter. There are sheltered tent places places not far down the SK track and once off the cirque towards WFV is usually much more sheltered. Even the small pine at the Barn Bluff turnoff is welcome 'respite. I can't imagine novices, many experienced walkers being able to pitch a tent in a real blow up there.

[stry]

Agree NNW. No wriggle room in that summation. And no "**** 'em" attitude either. Just an acknowledgement of reality, and the fact that people are people.

However as I have quoted elsewhere "There is none so blind as he who will not see"

[wayno]

i did the tongariro crossing today,
it was obvious that the system where the shuttle companies are supposed to be making sure people are adequately clothed is a farce, how there arent numerous hypothermia cases is beyond me, juset dozens and dozens of people dressed for a walk around town.... wind gusting 90k, in cloud, 5 degrees.. one lady crying, people feel committed because they are walking from point a to point be and they have to get teh shuttle at the far end.... none of the people i spoke to were navigating, they had no idea where they were on the track and what was ahead. the bulk of people didnt seem that phased by the weather and just kept going...

[Nuts]

Maybe that unpleasantness serves as a good 'education'. Being uncomfortable, making memorable mistakes, not dying. Not that doing things this way wouldn't be better with a careful design.

[Gadgetgeek]

If education and information is going to be the cheapest way to get people prepared, maybe something simple like some simple reporting weather stations along the track with a big sign at the gate with the current temp and wind-chill at each point? Might give people pause if they see a 10 degree difference between where they are, and where they plan to be. It might not, but then again, its worth a shot. Maybe working on more accurate local forecasting, and have an FM transmitter so that people can get info updates while on the track. It might help people make better decisions.
I think that for the sake of maintaining an important tourist attraction, there needs to be measures taken to protect people who are on the track. If patrolling the track isn't enough, and signage isn't enough, I don't know what else can be done. If you can save the cost of a few flights a year, that's a fair chunk of change to do other things with.
I'm unfamiliar with that track, so I have no idea what's possible. I don't think call boxes every 100M is needed, but maybe a scalable response method would allow some of these people to back out sooner?

I'm all for personal responsibility, but the balance has to be struck somewhere. more damage is done in areas that are free-for-all, and if its a case of 100% personal risk, no rescue is coming, you are on your own, very few will use the area, there will be no economic reason to protect the wilderness, and it will be developed by the highest bidder. So at some point you have to make the area accessible to enough people that there is incentive to keep the area open.

[wayno]

there is a massive sign on the tongariro crossing telling people to be prepared for bad weather any time of year and to be fit. and to turn back if they arent, but it makes little difference... most ill equipped people just walk right past like sheep...

[Smeagle]

as remotely wonderful and adventurous olt is its a highly recommended walk across the country and beyond, this is the first issue. the added ease of board walk takes out the sense towards people that the track is a low grade anyone can do.. you will never stop injury and death due to human nature its a common path within the home let alone inside of nature... signs may help a certain degree but there are also the "blind" whom speed read and think they achieve better in life ( no harm ment) it is up to the individual to make these choices, imagine a ranger who has just looked threw their pack, checked all permits, then allowed a individual/group to wonder off in to an unknown land being convinced by all party's that they no better than him/her? the ranger will eventually become complacent due to seeing so many, but the thought on the mind of one whom has lead person or persons to their death or injury may become worse. its not about the money its about the thought that money can buy you safety, unfortunately to us that do this regularly its a common factor...

[Ent]

Parks are well ahead of you ent - there is already a multi language project underway for the production of brochures, signage and website information via QR codes and smart devices. Signs will start appearing shortly at the major centres. At this stage its only 5 additional languages but that's a good start.

Far from having their head in the sand...

I also suggest a careful reading of the Civil Liability Act (2002)
http://www.thelaw.tas.gov.au/tocview/in ... act%202002

Let me see section "16. Persons suffering harm presumed to be aware of obvious risks"

Now what is obvious? To me walking in alpine areas in t-shirt and jeans is an obvious risk, but head up Marons Lookout and it would appear that I might be in the minority. Sorry, the message is not getting through.

I remember well a meeting with Work Place Standards in which they made it clear, passive signage is not a defence, you need to be proactive. I would suggest being physic would be handy as well.

As for the Airline pilot's comments. Yet again the recent events with the Malaysian Airlines proves that sadly that it is only tragedies that drive changes in that industry. Get ready for a new finding that major civil aircraft are to be issued with a tracking device like a Spot that can not be switched off. Err? Did not the inept flying by the pilots on Air France prove that the automated sending of data helps in finding and solving the reasons for accident? But we find years later that this has not been implemented. And I do recall that a pilot from the same area committed suicide, and it took a lot of pressure from the families to force the airline to look for the plane. Sorry, but something more is needed than blame the victims.

When I worked for a Council many of the old timers were sad when the nonfeasance defence was removed. For those not versed in law, and reading acts, it used to be the case that a council could not be held liable if something failed unless they specifically caused it to fail. This meant that many councils did not have in place systems to check things that had failed. Now, councils have to be proactive and safety has improved as a result.

O'well at least we have the Parks' special sign that was once commented that it looked like being attacked by a tree (Ent?).

All I ask is Parks be more open about what it is doing and consider that it is inviting the world to its area, and more than a few have not even a basic idea what to expect.

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

Spoke to a friend yesterday who did the track in the week following this tragic event.

While this is all hearsay, she said she spoke at length with a ranger who said he advised the party of three involved that they were severely under-prepared and under-equipped for the track before the incident occurred. He apparently advised them as strongly as possible to stop and return to Dove Lake/Ronny Creek area immediately. Not sure how early on this occurred, but they apparently refused and continued on their way.

While this is all unconfirmed hearsay, if true, it supports how I feel about the inability to protect 100% of walkers 100% of the time.

[north-north-west]

... it is inviting the world to its area, and more than a few have not even a basic idea what to expect.

Seriously, isn't that their fault? It's just plain common sense to check what the conditions will be like where you're going, read the information signs and pamphlets, check weather forecasts and the like. If people are too lazy or too stupid to do that, how on earth can TasPAWS be held accountable?
Surely it is not unreasonable to expect adults to take responsibility for the consequences of their own actions?

[wayno]

... it is inviting the world to its area, and more than a few have not even a basic idea what to expect.

Seriously, isn't that their fault? It's just plain common sense to check what the conditions will be like where you're going, read the information signs and pamphlets, check weather forecasts and the like. If people are too lazy or too stupid to do that, how on earth can TasPAWS be held accountable?
Surely it is not unreasonable to expect adults to take responsibility for the consequences of their own actions?

if its summer, a lot of people apply the same logic from where they live to where they are going. if they are from low lying areas, they just dont understand what the cold wind and rain can be like when combined in a place like the OLT and almost any mountain area... they may think throwing a raincoat on may be enough, often people dont even know the difference between a waterproof and non waterproof shell. a shell is a shell is a shell, on the tongariro crossing a significant percentage of people dont have raincoats, just a wind breaker or some random street jacket inc down jacket and they use that as a raincoat. it may have kept them dry walking around the street for a short while or in a shower in low lying areas before but they are going where they havent been before weather wise... if you told them they were climbing everest they'd still probably take the same gear.... on the tongaririo crossing last week all those ill prepared people were walking in degree weather.. wind gusting 90 in cloud, you hands went numb if you left your gloves off for long... i could see the fear and shock in peoples faces at the weather conditions... they'd never expected the weather to be that bad...

[stry]

Not surprising Wayno.

And they all walked past that big red, confronting and explicit sign that you posted a picture of ?

Evolution will not be denied.

[wayno]

Not surprising Wayno.

And they all walked past that big red, confronting and explicit sign that you posted a picture of ?

Evolution will not be denied.

the red sign is on the cascade saddle. the sign on the tongariro crossing is far bigger, with bigger writing.... i didnt notice many people taking any notice of it.... possibly sheep mentality, others have gone on, so it must be OK...

[wayno]

[north-north-west]

Darwinism in action. Frankly, at the moment I tend to think that anyone who choses to ignore that deserves whatever happens to them.

[wayno]

doesnt help when shuttle bus drivers tell them the weather will be OK because they only run when the forecast is reasonable... the forecast for the day i was there was winds 45k clearing, it was 60 gusting 90, 5 degrees and it didnt clear. cloud being what it is saturated clothing