Wild dogs?

[Overlandman]

From ABC News + The full interview with Greg Mifsud will be broadcast on Landline on ABCTV this Sunday at noon.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-12/f ... gs/5590996

The national wild dog plan was launched by Agriculture Minister Barnaby Joyce this month.
A coordinator of the newly released national wild dog plan, Greg Mifsud, says legal enforcement is something authorities will need to consider.

"At some point in time somebody's going to have to take the bit between their teeth and take the steps to enforce fines on people who refuse to be involved in the program," he told Landline.

Recent estimates of the economic damage wild dogs have inflicted on the grazing industry range from $48 million to $67 million a year.

And the problem in some areas is getting worse.

"Wild dogs are now expanding ... into a range of country where we haven't had them for a long time," said Mifsud, who is based at the Co-operative Research Centre for Invasive Pests.
A recent survey by the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics and Sciences (ABARES) found wild dogs also had a significant psychological impact on farmers.

"They found the trauma they were facing was very similar to a returned service veteran from Vietnam."
The national wild dog plan was launched by Agriculture Minister Barnaby Joyce this month.
It commits to $10 million in eradication funding under drought assistance packages, and allocates a further $300,000 for national co-ordination.
Mr Mifsud says co-ordination is the key.
"Wild dogs are highly mobile, they don't obey boundary fences, they won't stop at the state border," he said.

[Strider]

So we have one member here that sleeps with a sensor light and another who carries a hunting knife at all times. I've never camped on the big island - just how worried/paranoid/prepared should I be exactly?

[Travis22]

Driving out of the high country today i saw more dead sheep - torn apart, then i have ever seen before in total. I was tempted to offer my services to the landowner but sadly i really dont have the time to assist at this point in time.

Travis.

[whitefang]

"They found the trauma they were facing was very similar to a returned service veteran from Vietnam."

I wonder how they came to this conclusion... I don't doubt there would be psychological problems, but this seems like an over-dramatisation.

[drakkar]

"They found the trauma they were facing was very similar to a returned service veteran from Vietnam."

I wonder how they came to this conclusion... I don't doubt there would be psychological problems, but this seems like an over-dramatisation.

It wouldn't be to far from the truth. Have you ever walked into a calf pen and seen half of them torn apart and the other half needing to be put down?

[neilmny]

So we have one member here that sleeps with a sensor light and another who carries a hunting knife at all times. I've never camped on the big island - just how worried/paranoid/prepared should I be exactly?

Don't be too worried Strider, just don't leave your boots or food outside your tent.

[whitefang]

It wouldn't be to far from the truth. Have you ever walked into a calf pen and seen half of them torn apart and the other half needing to be put down?

After taking a look through the study I found this:

The Impact of Event Scale (IES) (Horowitz et al. 1979) and the Impact of Event Scale–Revised (IES-R) (Creamer et al. 2003) is a widely used self report measure in the field of traumatic stress. Multiple events and circumstances have been examined using this scale for the degree of traumatic impact upon individuals. Such events include motor vehicle accidents, war service in Vietnam Veterans and life threatening events such as a sudden cardiac arrest. The comparison shown in Table 21 indicates a relative measure of stress and is not intended to imply that these different experiences are similar to each other. Whilst it is acknowledged that IES study results using different stressors are not directly comparable with each other, they provide some insight into levels and type of stress experienced by participants in the current study.

[ClydieEdge]

I know this is an old thread but I'm wondering if anybody knows anything about the Jindabyne/Threadbow Dingo's, 'apparently' they were breeding with 'domestic' working dogs such as cattle dogs, kelpies etc, and the offspring maintained the yellow/golden colour however their tails were appearing shorter? When there was a release they were going to be culled people or farmers were catching them and training them up for working dogs or breeding them back to working dogs?
Can anybody verify this or have any other relevant information?

[sambar358]

I've shot several feral dogs in state forests close to farmland that exhibited cattle dog coloration with one very similar to a "blue" cattle dog apart from the shorter brushy tail so the genetics of these feral dogs certainly indicated some in-breeding with local working dogs. And that's not uncommon either and I've been told on a number of occasions by farmers in wild dog country that they've had issues with feral dogs coming-in close to their kennelled working dogs or one of their dogs has gone AWOL for a few days then returned most-likely after breeding with a female wild dog that was in season. However I'd be surprised if farmers were catching-up feral dogs with a bit of working dog in them then "re-training" them back to stock dogs. But some years ago a mate of mine found a litter of 4-6 week old pure alpine dingo pups stashed in a hollow log and bought a female home and kept raised it. "Zero" was a great dog....very quiet and loyal and totally devoted to her adoptive family.....but she still had "the wild" in her and they didn't have the chooks for too long after she moved in ! While you may be able to take the wild dog out of the bush.....it's another matter to take the bush out of the wild dog !

As an aside to this.....recently a friend of mine who was doing a bit of deer hunting in some country east of Orbost that was burnt in the fires last summer was stalked by a group of about 10 wild dogs and they all approached quite aggressively within 20m or so of him. To him it was quite clear that they were intending to have a go at him and no amount of yelling or stick throwing seemed to deter them.....but of course he had the rifle with him and after knocking a couple over the rest departed quite promptly. This bloke is a very experienced bushman and has been around various breeds of working and hunting dogs all his life and in his view if he'd been unarmed he could have been in a bit of strife. While this is fairly rare with meetings between humans and wild dogs it does pose the question about what may have transpired had these dogs encountered a lone walker rather than a hunter with a rifle. Take care out there. Cheers

s358

Last edited by sambar358 on Thu 13 Nov, 2014 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

[slparker]

I've never seen, nor heard when I was growing up, of wild dogs in Tassy - at least not in the midlands where I grew up. The historic record describes wild dogs as a problem (even with a bounty) in the 1800s. I wonder if this is another disposal service that the tassy devil provides - eating pups?

[stry]

I've never seen, nor heard when I was growing up, of wild dogs in Tassy - at least not in the midlands where I grew up. The historic record describes wild dogs as a problem (even with a bounty) in the 1800s. I wonder if this is another disposal service that the tassy devil provides - eating pups?

I'd be pretty sure the devil could do an excellent job on not only wild dog pups, but also fox cubs and feline kittens. Such young left in the nest/lair/den would be easy prey for the devil.

[Paul]

We witnessed two wild dogs near Frozen Lake on Saturday - this is close to The Walls Of Jerusalem.
Initially they were roaming, but upon seeing us, they were off at a very fast pace - I would think they are shy of humans , having been shot at previously.

Paul.

[maddog]

I've never seen, nor heard when I was growing up, of wild dogs in Tassy - at least not in the midlands where I grew up. The historic record describes wild dogs as a problem (even with a bounty) in the 1800s. I wonder if this is another disposal service that the tassy devil provides - eating pups?

I'd be pretty sure the devil could do an excellent job on not only wild dog pups, but also fox cubs and feline kittens. Such young left in the nest/lair/den would be easy prey for the devil.

The inability of foxes to become established in Tasmania is likely thanks to the Devil, but cats are able to evade them by climbing trees. The Devil has a problem with low genetic diversity which is the probable cause of the facial tumor disease. Many believe that Australian marsupials are of lower intelligence than placental mammals and are unable to compete. As Devils and the Thylacine were likely wiped out on the mainland by dogs, I suspect that the predatory relationship in regards to dogs is the opposite of what you suggest.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[walkon]

Wild dogs are my only fear whilst up Bush. I see very few dogs walking around in the three seasons though I'm sure alot more see me. Though in winter you see the tracks around a lot more due to the characteristics of the snow. I thought I heard dogs one morning and whilst snowshoeing out I saw dog tracks chasing a deer, had the hairs on the back of my neck going till I got to the car. In the snow you see heaps of dog tracks which can be a bit disconcerting. The deer shooters I know all rate that I walk in the Bush alone alot with no gun to protect me and like samba they have stories about dogs harassing someone till a bullet ended the problem. A bit disconcerting and though it's worth thinking about, it's not about to stop you going out on your own.

[LachlanB]

Many believe that Australian marsupials are of lower intelligence than placental mammals and are unable to compete.

That's pseudoscience derived from the 19th century when Europeans viewed everything in Australia as inferior to that in their original home. Hence the acclimatisation societies. Colonials assumed that Australian species were more primitive, and hence not as intelligent as European species. Intelligence is extremely difficult to quantify, and cannot simply be equated to brain mass or size. Hence, many public views are derived prom observed patterns of competition.
The reason many native marsupials have difficulty competing with placental mammals is that many of them are specialists. They have adapted to unique conditions, and thus are vulnerable to ecosystem disturbance. OTOH, while there are specialised placentals, most of the introduced ones are generalists, and thus happily capable of adapting to a wide range of condition. Noticeably, many generalist native species are thriving...

[maddog]

Many believe that Australian marsupials are of lower intelligence than placental mammals and are unable to compete.

That's pseudoscience derived from the 19th century when Europeans viewed everything in Australia as inferior to that in their original home. Hence the acclimatisation societies. Colonials assumed that Australian species were more primitive, and hence not as intelligent as European species. Intelligence is extremely difficult to quantify, and cannot simply be equated to brain mass or size. Hence, many public views are derived prom observed patterns of competition.
The reason many native marsupials have difficulty competing with placental mammals is that many of them are specialists. They have adapted to unique conditions, and thus are vulnerable to ecosystem disturbance. OTOH, while there are specialised placentals, most of the introduced ones are generalists, and thus happily capable of adapting to a wide range of condition. Noticeably, many generalist native species are thriving...

G’day Lachlan,

Though physically formidable, pound for pound biting above their weight, Australia’s marsupial predators struggle to compete with the super-species (such as cats and dogs). The difference is not specialisation. For example, Quolls and Cats share a similar ecological niche. Marsupial predators have a problem, not physical, not specialisation. The problem is limited mental capacity. With a brain around two and a half times the size, carnivorans have little trouble dealing with such dim-witted competitors.

The consequences of marsupial evolution within a low nutrient environment are explained in a sensitive manner by Tim Flannery

‘The brain is one of the great energy uses of all the organs…The Koala is clearly an extreme, but marsupials in general are not known for their large brains nor outstanding intelligence…”

And it is possible our conservation efforts will make things even worse.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[north-north-west]

It has been long proven that brain size = even in relation to body size/weight - is no indication of intelligence.

[corvus]

We witnessed two wild dogs near Frozen Lake on Saturday - this is close to The Walls Of Jerusalem.
Initially they were roaming, but upon seeing us, they were off at a very fast pace - I would think they are shy of humans , having been shot at previously.

Paul.

Paul,
Have you reported this sighting of those poor escaped "hunting dogs" ? no life for a semi domestic pet and sadly better off dead in my opinion ,but with a quick bullet rather than poison .
corvus

[maddog]

It has been long proven that brain size = even in relation to body size/weight - is no indication of intelligence.

G’day NNW,

The current status of the science is far from settled as you suggest. Wikipedia provides a reasonable introduction to the subject. People may hope the Tasmanian devil could have a role in the suppression of pest species on the mainland, but the fact is they are just too stupid to be of much use (it is likely even more so than the extinct thylacine). Exaggerating the potential of marsupial predators will do little to aid conservation efforts.

The following is from a 2008 paper by Ashwell, K. ‘Encephalization of Australian and New Guinean Marsupials’

Encephalization and Extinction

Of the 52 marsupial carnivore species examined in the present study, only the thylacine is extinct, having died out in Tasmania in 1936. However, both the Tasmanian devil (Sarcophilus harrisii ) and the thylacine were present on mainland Australia during the Holocene and the thylacine was also found in New Guinea during that period. The thylacine disappeared from continental Australia at least 2,000 years ago [Paddle, 2000], whereas subfossil remains of the devil have been found in Western Australia dating to the 16th century AD [Strahan, 1995; Johnson, 2006]. The arrival in Australia at about 3,500 to 4,000 years ago of the dingo (Canis lupus dingo – a canid derived from the Indian wolf) and its spread with human assistance throughout mainland Australia might have lead to the extinction of both marsupial carnivores on the mainland, whereas the spread of the dingo to Tasmania was prevented by the Bass Strait. In the present study, mean EQ of Tasmanian thylacines and devils were found to be 0.454 +/- 0.107 and 0.360 +/- 0.040, respectively, compared to 1.004 8 0.126 for the dingo.

The profound differences in encephalization between the two marsupial carnivores and the dingo naturally raises the question of whether low encephalization could have placed the thylacine and devil at a competitive disadvantage relative to the dingo. Social structure of the three predators is and was profoundly different. Many dingos belong to socially integrated packs, which can be very stable and number from 3 to 12 individuals in areas where dingos are undisturbed by human control operations [Corbett, 1995]. Modern devils in Tasmania forage singly, with each individual occupying a home range of 8 to 20 km2, although several individuals may feed simultaneously on a large carcass [Strahan, 1995]. The thylacine is thought to have hunted at night, locating its prey by scent, and usually hunting either singly or in pairs [Strahan, 1995], although family groups of up to three adults and first generation young were sometimes observed [Paddle, 2000]. Captive thylacines were said to have been mute, although wild animals were reported to communicate by yapping while in pursuit of prey although this is now impossible to verify [Strahan, 1995; Paddle, 2000]. It is therefore plausible that the lower encephalization of both the thylacine and the devil might have been correlated with less effective hunting strategies and thereby contributed to their extinction on mainland Australia. Recently introduced eutherian predators (feral fox and cat) have substantially higher EQ than both marsupial carnivores and potential prey (fig. 7) consistent with a potential encephalization disadvantage for native marsupial carnivores.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[Strider]

It has been long proven that brain size = even in relation to body size/weight - is no indication of intelligence.

Hence women having larger brains than men...

[vicrev]

So has my pet rock.........

[Pteropus]

Using terms such as

limited mental capacity

,

dim-witted

and

are just too stupid

when referring to marsupials is a big generalisation and shows little appreciation of the different life history traits and social structure of very different species.

The Ashwell (2008) paper points out the differences in social structure and hunting strategies among dingos, Thylacines and devils. This doesn’t necessarily mean that Thylacines and devils are limited by their mental capacity, it just means they have developed less effective hunting strategies and have vastly different social structure. After all, Ashwell (2008) was just testing a hypothesis. The paragraph directly after the ones you posted state:
“On the other hand, quantitative analysis of both EQ and residuals for the broader range of Australidelphian carnivores, herbivores and omnivores (Dasyuromorphia, Diprotodontia and Peramelemorphia) indicated that differences in brain size do not play a significant role in extinction. There were no significant differences in either EQ or residuals between extinct/threatened and common/abundant species for any of the three orders. In fact, some of the most threatened modern marsupials have quite high EQ and residual values (e.g., Leadbeater’s possum, Gymnobelideus leadbeateri , EQ of 1.631, residual of +0.238). In contrast, some of the most successful marsupials which have adapted so well to the modern world as to become pests (e.g., Didelphis virginiana in North America and Trichosurus vulpecula in urban Australia and throughout New Zealand), have relatively low absolute brain weight and EQ.”

and Ashwell's conclusion: "There is no evidence to indicate that relative brain size among Australian marsupials is associated with either geographical distribution, aridity of habitats or potential extinction."

Australian marsupials evolved anti-predator behaviours to Thylacines, devils, quolls etc, and not to dogs, cats and foxes, and therefore have not evolved the same responses that are acquired by evolving alongside a predator species. Predator-prey naivety is a common hypothesis used to explain successful predator invasions. But marsupials have shown the ability to learn anti-predator responses through training (see Griffin et al (2001) Learning specificity in acquired predator recognition. Animal Behaviour, 62:577-589) and then socially from conspecifics (see Griffin and Evans (2003) Social learning of antipredator behaviour in a marsupial. Animal Behaviour, 66: 485-492: ). From Griffin and Evans (2003): These findings provide the first evidence for social learning in a marsupial and suggest that this group has cognitive characteristics convergent with those of eutherian mammals. Indeed, some marsupial predators like quolls and dunnarts have been be taught to avoid eating toxic cane toads (O’Donnell et al (2010) Conditioned taste aversion enhances the survival of an endangered predator imperilled by a toxic invader. Journal of Applied Ecology, 47:558-565; Webb et al (2011) A small dasyurid predator (Sminthopsis virginiae) rapidly learns to avoid a toxic invader. Wildlife Research, 38:726-731). Hardly “dim-witted”.

Marsupials aren’t dim witted. Some just need time to learn behaviours that increases survival against a whole bunch of novel threats.

[maddog]

G’day Pteropus,

It is true the Brushtail possum has a low EQ and thrives, but it does not occupy the same niche as the more intelligent placental predators, so there is no competitive disadvantage (the same can be said of the Virginia opossum). I agree the problems faced by Leadbeater’s possum are unrelated to intelligence and largely connected to the loss of habitat caused by wildfire. It is where intellectually challenged marsupial predators compete for the same niche as placental mammals that the problems become apparent. And the data is clear, the larger placental mammals, as a group, have significantly higher EQ than their Australian marsupial counterparts.

It makes little sense to think, as has recently been proposed, that the importation of the Tasmanian devil to the mainland will offer any solution to the dealing with ‘pest’ placental predators on the mainland. It is actually quite an irresponsible suggestion. The devil is already suffering from low genetic diversity and to further isolate healthy populations on the mainland would do little to help the welfare of this unfortunate and endangered creature. Once released into the wild, the devil with its remarkably low EQ of approximately 0.360 (compared to the dog at around 1), would again find itself at a disadvantage, competing for the same niche the more intelligent placental predators now occupy. With its fearsome bite, it may occasionally hold its own in a direct physical contest and avoid intraguild predation, but more generally it would be outsmarted, outmaneuvered, and face the same fate as its ancestors on the mainland. Extinction.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[Pteropus]

It makes little sense to think, as has recently been proposed, that the importation of the Tasmanian devil to the mainland will offer any solution to the dealing with ‘pest’ placental predators on the mainland. It is actually quite an irresponsible suggestion.

Maybe, maybe not. And not according to some who happen to be experts in this field -> http://theconversation.com/should-we-mo ... land-16388

Once released into the wild, the devil with its remarkably low EQ of approximately 0.360 (compared to the dog at around 1), would again find itself at a disadvantage, competing for the same niche the more intelligent placental predators now occupy. With its fearsome bite, it may occasionally hold its own in a direct physical contest and avoid intraguild predation, but more generally it would be outsmarted, outmaneuvered, and face the same fate as its ancestors on the mainland. Extinction.

On what evidence? Brain size?? On the contrary to your assertion that dogs would out compete devils leading to their extinction, you might be interested to know that devils and dingoes coexisted for 3000 years (Johnson and Wroe, 2003). Furthermore, Johnson and Wroe (2003) state that the reintroduction of the devil would be:
“…a very significant step in the restoration of mammal communities on mainland Australia, and the ready availability of devils in Tasmania makes translocation to the mainland a practicable management option. One strong argument against this proposal might be that, if the extinction of the devil had been caused by the dingo, attempts to reintroduce it would be futile unless the dingo could first be removed from large areas of the mainland. The justification for reintroduction would be much stronger if we could show that the original extinction had been due to causes that no longer operate. This proposition is not proven, but in casting doubt on the belief that the dingo was responsible for the passing of the devil on mainland Australia we also throw a more favourable light on the idea that the devil could be brought back.”

Also see Brown (2006) who suggests dingoes could not have caused the mainland devils to become extinct on their own, and that other causes such as changing climate and Aboriginal intensification of resource use were the main contributors. From Brown (2006):
“However, in the absence of factors other than dingoes, it is possible that they alone would not have lead to the mainland extinction of the Tasmanian devil either – feral dogs have certainly not been the devils greatest threat in Tasmania over the last 150 years.”

More recently, Prowse et al (2014) use quantitative modelling to show that:
"...multispecies models support recent claims that the dingo’s role in Australia’s Holocene extinctions has been overstated (Johnson and Wroe 2003, Brown 2006, Johnson 2006). In our simulations, dingoes could reduce thylacine and devil populations through a combination of exploitation and interference competition, as well as direct predation (Fig. 1b). However, when we included the dingo introduction as the sole extinction driver, dingoes rarely drove thylacines and devils to extinction in the time frame required (only 5% of the plausible simulations for which dingoes were introduced). This is despite our assumptions of: (1) complete dietary overlap between dingoes and the native species which maximizes the potential for exploitation competition; and (2) Type I functional responses governing dingo predation on thylacines and devils that should cause more system instability than if saturating responses were used. The apparent connection between the dingo invasion and the subsequent mammal extinctions might be no more than a coincidence (i.e., a result of greater contact and trade between northern Australia and the people of southern Asia, which also might have spurred the technological innovations that facilitated intensification).”

In conclusion, if devil introductions were properly managed it is unlikely dogs would cause their extinction.

[Zone-5]

Nasty!

[north-north-west]

Well, I'd be pretty aggro too, if I had my foot caught like that!

[devoswitch]

I reckon I'd have a look like that on my face if my leg had been crushed by someone's stupid trap and had been stuck there for who knows how long. That's so cruel. I hope it's not still going on with traps now days. I am definitely in favour of a bullet to the head for wild dogs but trapping and baiting is disgusting.

[devoswitch]

Haha you beat me to it NNW!!!

[slparker]

Off-topic, but in reply to the posts on Tasmanian devils:
https://theconversation.com/whats-killi ... ncer-32318

[sambar358]

Trapping as shown in the pic above remains a major tactic of DEPI-employed staff responsible for controlling wild dogs. These days however it is illegal to use "steel jawed traps" and instead trap-jaws are generally rubber coated as show in the pic of the trapped dog. Various types of snares are also employed and these too are regulated to be constructed in such a way as to hold the trapped animal without inflicting serious harm like the old steel-jawed traps did. These traps and snares tend to still hold the dog firmly but usually do not break the leg bone as the old steel-jawed dog traps did and the current traps also allow the release of trapped non-target species such as wombats and possums without doing them too much damage.

In Vic regulations specify that the DEPI trappers do the rounds of their traps (I think) every 36 hours so that any trapped animal is not in the trap for extended periods of time. Trapping and baiting with 1080 poison are the main tactics employed to combat wild dogs and a level of shooting mostly on private property where dog issues present. Is wild dog trapping cruel ? Most would think so.....but anyone who has witnessed 1st-hand the aftermath of a few wild dogs getting stuck into on a mob of sheep or calves would probably temper this viewpoint somewhat. But in the end the outcome for the trapped wild dog is the same....a bullet in the head.....and that's just the stark reality of it. Cheers

s358