"Exploring the Jagungal Wilderness"

[north-north-west]

It's not about opening routes, it's about re-opening and maintaining them.

Just how much of a wilderness area is it, when you have three metre wide firetrails with metre high and wide signs at every junction, and huts scattered all over the place? Clearing a walking track width through old and established tracks is going to have far less impact than those graded firetrails.

[rcaffin]

I agree that it is named a wilderness. But the SMA was there before the NPWS and their roads and dams are everywhere. The cattlemen were there before the SMA, and the goldminers were even earlier. They all add some history to the place. OK, let's not have any more commercial development there!

The NPWS has already accepted, after some fighting, that the old cattlemens' huts are of historic significance. Most of the tracks we are talking about are as old as the huts or even older.

Cheers
Roger

[potato]

Sure, there are some features and management practices that contradict what wilderness means to many of us. But lets not create or recreate more contradictions. We have them marked on maps - isn't that enough for the experienced walker?

Route finding is an attraction in its own right to this area and an experienced walker will still use the old routes, even as the vegetation changes.

The old routes and other relics of the cattle grazing in KNP are reminders of a very destructive and neglectful period for the alpine region. Since the community has declared the area as wilderness, we moved on from these times to leave the reminders to be consumed by the landscape (except for the huts).

[rcaffin]

an experienced walker will still use the old routes, even as the vegetation changes.
Aye, and there's the problem. Since the fires of 2003, the regrowth ON the tracks has been something fierce. It is so bad that many of the tracks RVG mentioned are simply impassable today. Been there, tried that - not again.

Cheers

[Mark F]

The reason I mentioned the Wilderness Zone as a consideration to opening up old tracks is to do with internal parks politics. Doing any form of improvements (other than grading fire trails or rebuilding huts etc ) in the Wilderness Zone is going to take a greater effort to gain parks management approval than doing the same thing outside the Wilderness Zone. If works done outside the Wilderness Zone are done well and in cooperation with parks then trust is built and the possibility of reopening old tracks within the Wilderness Zone becomes easier to achieve. Look at what KHA has achieved over the years.

I walked down Arsenic Ridge from the old firetrail to the hut - I didn't try the section from Round Mountain to the ft but looking at Google Earth etc I think I can see traces of the bridle trail on this section. The first part along the ridge to around 370139 and though to the knob at 366133 was light regrowth with plenty of open leads. The hard part was on the slope coming off knob and down towards the hut, a section of a bit less than 1km. I suspect that it would have been a bit easier if I had kept a bit further west rather than trying to keep on the crest.

Potato - I disagree about "an experienced walker will still use the old routes, even as the vegetation changes". Think for example of the old route from Pretty Plain up to the old Strumbo FT. Very few use it now it has become so totally overgrown.

[potato]

an experienced walker will still use the old routes, even as the vegetation changes.
Aye, and there's the problem. Since the fires of 2003, the regrowth ON the tracks has been something fierce. It is so bad that many of the tracks RVG mentioned are simply impassable today. Been there, tried that - not again.

Cheers

And that's why I said consumed by the landscape. Yes, the fires did a good job of resetting the vegetation.

There are plenty of routes and ways to access almost all areas of the national park. As you, when I find the scrub is too bad, I try something different. When the next fire blows though, I might tackle some of those routes again.

In the meantime, I don't support reopening old routes in national parks for the sake of nostalgia. The feral horses do enough of that.

[north-north-west]

Think for example of the old route from Pretty Plain up to the old Strumbo FT. Very few use it now it has become so totally overgrown.

That's a classic. I've done that twice (in the opposite direction), last time would have been Jan 2011. There was a good clear pad down through the regrowth on the line of the old track. Three years later, far more experienced walkers than I could find no trace of it. And that sucks, as it's not only a traditional route, but a highly logical and practical one when walking in that area, particularly if you're wanting to make a circuit.

[RVG]

Think for example of the old route from Pretty Plain up to the old Strumbo FT. Very few use it now it has become so totally overgrown.

That's a classic. I've done that twice (in the opposite direction), last time would have been Jan 2011. There was a good clear pad down through the regrowth on the line of the old track. Three years later, far more experienced walkers than I could find no trace of it. And that sucks, as it's not only a traditional route, but a highly logical and practical one when walking in that area, particularly if you're wanting to make a circuit.

Not to mention that NPWS and enthusiastic volunteers made a big effort to rebuild Pretty Plain Hut, yet that effort will have been largely pointless if the tracks to the hut disappear.

[Tyreless]

In the meantime, I don't support reopening old routes in national parks for the sake of nostalgia.

+1 (at the risk of being flamed)

[RVG]

This is what NPWS says about the role of National Parks on its website. http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/con ... onal-parks

"The NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service (NPWS) is dedicated to the conservation of the state’s heritage sites through restoration, preservation and ongoing maintenance. NPWS works in partnership with other government agencies and communities to identify, protect and promote the heritage of NSW."

"NSW national parks not only provide areas for social and recreational use, they also preserve biodiversity, heritage sites and Aboriginal culture."

"National parks are areas of land protected because of their unspoilt landscapes, outstanding or representative ecosystems, Australian native plants and animals, and places of natural or cultural significance. In addition to their role in conservation, national parks provide opportunities for public nature appreciation, well-being, enjoyment, and as valuable scientific research. "

In recent years and especially since the 2003 fires, there has been a realisation by NPWS that the cultural heritage of the National Park includes its European heritage and that that heritage also needed to be conserved. Six huts have been rebuilt in recent years and huts which were formerly marked as being allowed to decay have received works which will prolong their lives. This process began even before 2003 when NPWS replaced Constances Hut with the Burrungubugge shelter.

On some other sites in the Jagungal Wilderness, such as the Boltons and Napthalis Homestead, and the CSIRO "Rabbit" Hut, it has erected explanatory boards which explain the history of the site.

The Management Tracks within the Park have also been upgraded especially the Grey Mare Fire Trail. In 2008 the Rural Fire Service was allowed to clear part of the track into Kidmans as far as Little Brassy Gap.

There is also an argument that the huts should not be seen in isolation and that the tracks which led to them are also part of our heritage. In fact, as "The Bundian Way" makes clear, some of the tracks were undoubtedly used by Aborigines living on the South Coast to visit the higher peaks on a seasonal basis.

Other tracks and huts record not only the grazing history of the area but also its mining history and the work of the Snowy Mountains Authority.

What it all means is that the Park needs management to meet all of these needs and in recent years NPWS has done a good job with limited resources. As part of this it has called on volunteers to help meet some of its workload. In an attempt to eliminate Orange Hawkweed it called for volunteers who were used to look for the weed in sections of the Park. As a result of that program it seems likely that the spread of the weed has been checked.

What is clear is that NPWS in recent times has managed KNP to meet not only Wilderness values but also cultural and heritage ones as well. On this basis, some track maintenance, possibly done by volunteers, is consistent with the the proper use of a National Park.

[Xplora]

In recent years and especially since the 2003 fires, there has been a realisation by NPWS that the cultural heritage of the National Park includes its European heritage and that that heritage also needed to be conserved. Six huts have been rebuilt in recent years and huts which were formerly marked as being allowed to decay have received works which will prolong their lives. This process began even before 2003 when NPWS replaced Constances Hut with the Burrungubugge shelter.

On some other sites in the Jagungal Wilderness, such as the Boltons and Napthalis Homestead, and the CSIRO "Rabbit" Hut, it has erected explanatory boards which explain the history of the site.

The Management Tracks within the Park have also been upgraded especially the Grey Mare Fire Trail. In 2008 the Rural Fire Service was allowed to clear part of the track into Kidmans as far as Little Brassy Gap.

There is also an argument that the huts should not be seen in isolation and that the tracks which led to them are also part of our heritage. In fact, as "The Bundian Way" makes clear, some of the tracks were undoubtedly used by Aborigines living on the South Coast to visit the higher peaks on a seasonal basis.

Other tracks and huts record not only the grazing history of the area but also its mining history and the work of the Snowy Mountains Authority.

What it all means is that the Park needs management to meet all of these needs and in recent years NPWS has done a good job with limited resources. As part of this it has called on volunteers to help meet some of its workload. In an attempt to eliminate Orange Hawkweed it called for volunteers who were used to look for the weed in sections of the Park. As a result of that program it seems likely that the spread of the weed has been checked.

What is clear is that NPWS in recent times has managed KNP to meet not only Wilderness values but also cultural and heritage ones as well. On this basis, some track maintenance, possibly done by volunteers, is consistent with the the proper use of a National Park.

So well put. This is the sort of language that needs to be directed to NPWS and you are good at it. I also think you should pick a track (or give a couple of options) that you have a good chance of getting approval for. If you can get approval and a team then you will be able to develop relationships which then may lead to more tracks being put on the list. Do a good job on the first track and they will take notice. Don't bite off too much at first. Track work may not always be easy. It is good to see others keen to be involved. Just need to make it happen and that could wear you down. PV have just introduced a volunteer portal on their web site. You register your details and can view a list of programs then volunteer for the ones you want. NSW will probably have one as well soon enough if not already.

[potato]

There is a risk that with more user groups pushing management authorities for their little bit of improved access, we will see more groups doing the same. The horse riders and 4wds have been doing this for years and now we see the mountain bikes and commercial operators pressuring the parks. You just need to mention and somehow justify (or not), without qualification, that your activity will have no impact, improve user experience and bring jobs to the region. Just wait until you see mountain bikes on top of Jagungal - oh wait, I have. The cost recovery ideology that gov agencies are being forced into will not cover the money needed to manage the erosion/weeds/pollution that these new user groups will bring.

This forum has good examples of concerns from bushwalkers being raised about this.

If you have ever managed a volunteer group, you will understand the raft of problems that come with that. Once you are lucky enough to get a program running, you find that some groups are excellent and the end of the day you wish you could hire them. Most however, are just there to get easy access to a remote spot and kudos from their facebook posts. Even weed pulling groups in deep suburbia wax and wane - it is a lot of effort for agencies/landcare/etc to manage.

The routes are now immortalised on maps and other literature - isn't that enough? For now until the next opportunity, if you are not up for a bit of scrub bashing, perhaps you should consider a different route. There are plenty of options to choose from.

(btw - the grading of the Grey Mare FT shouldn't be considered as part of a rational decision making process. Politics and fear drives fire management in remote areas)

[RVG]

Thanks Xplora for the kind comments.

Potato also makes a valid point about managing groups of volunteers, although that sort of thing is regularly done anyway by NPWS e.g the hawkweed program. KHA does the same sort of thing with its hut caretakers. I have no doubt that there would be a good number of volunteers and that managing them for the relatively limited works involved is a problem which can be handled.

The issue of "Heritage Tracks" has also been given a good airing in the latest edition of Bushwalk Australia Magazine which is now out and which is accessible on line on this site. The Magazine contains several articles which are relevant to this subject.

Firstly Joanne Bell gives an excellent account of her walk into Kidmans Hut using the old route past Daveys Hut. I also took up a suggestion to contribute an article on Heritage Tracks, developing the comments made in this forum.

Ideally, if something is to be done about preserving some of these old tracks, forum members who are members of clubs might raise the issue at club meetings to see whether individual clubs might support the idea and perhaps offer volunteers. For my part I am willing to raise the matter with several organisations and seek their support.

If forum members have any other suggestions or have successfully dealt with NPWS in the past please add to the discussion.

Robert

[rcaffin]

Posting should have been in Jagungal Circuit. Moved.
Cheers
Roger

[RVG]

Forum members might be interested to know that following the publication of an article called "Heritage Tracks'" in theDec ember issue of the Bushwalker Magazine. I was encouraged to persist with the idea a little further and recently sent the following email to the NPWS at Jindabyne.

"From: Robert Green <rvhgreen@outlook.com>
Sent: Thursday, 3 May 2018 11:16 AM
To: andrew.miller@environment.nsw.gov.au
Subject: Jagungal area

Hi Andrew


As indicated in my SMS, last year I was asked to write an article for the Bushwalker Magazine. It was called Heritage Tracks and built on the work which Graham Scully, I and others did identifying old tracks and sites in KNP. A copy of the article is attached.

The subject was given an airing in the bushwalking forum and there was widespread support for the idea that, if something is not done to control the regrowth, some tracks and heritage will be lost. This has already happened in the Ryries Parlour area and elsewhere. (Hannels Spur is another problem area, though someone mentioned to me that work had been done to clear that track.)

Careful consideration was given as to which tracks need work and the details appear in the article.

From talking to people, I have no doubt that there would be many willing volunteers who would do the work, as was shown by the willingness of the public to join in the search for Orange Hawkweed in KNP and, in Victoria, the clearing of old tracks connected to the AAWT.

On a separate issue, at one stage, when we were doing "groundtruthing" work, Graham Scully and I met with NPWS at Queanbeyan. We were given a copy of the HHIMS database records of European sites in KNP and for a while there was a suggestion that we would be trained to operate and update the HHIMS database so as to include in it the GPS co-ordinates for hundreds of sites in the Park. That suggestion fell by the way but we still have the information available.

An updated database would have advantages for NPWS and the Rural Fire Service because, for example, in the event of a fire it might be useful to know where graves, ruins and other sites are so as to avoid damage to them when constructing a fire break. The information is still available for NPWS should it want to update its database.

Please feel free to pass this email on to anyone who may be interested. I would be delighted to discuss it with you and them.

Regards
Robert"

I will keep members posted as to the outcome of the approach.

If anyone has contacts with NPWS Head Office in Sydney and is willing to take the matter up with them it would be greatly appreciated.

Robert

[Zapruda]

Thanks for all your work and effort on this matter, Robert. Is there anything the average punter can do to help?

[RVG]

Hi Zapruda

I haven't been ignoring your question, but it has taken some time to get a response from NPWS.

I will be meeting with them shortly - no date set - and have given them a copy of the article "Heritage Tracks" which appeared in the December issue of the magazine. There will be a couple of questions to discuss.

The threshhold question is "Whether, for heritage or maintenance reasons, they are interested in some limited work being done on any of the old tracks?"and the next is "Is there a role for bushwalkers who are willing to volunteer their services?"

The track which I would suggest should be first in line for work would be the Strawberry Hill Fire Trail where it goes down Strumbo Hill. The route is clear, the distance is not great, the work is of a type which can be done by volunteers and it warrants preservation because of its historical relevance as well as its usefulness to the bushwalking community.

To answer your question specifically, it would be handy to know, before meeting with NPWS:

1. Are there any precedents for this activity? (There may be Victorian precedents. Are there any in NSW? If Hannels Spur has recently received work, it may be a precedent too.)

2. How many volunteers are there likely to be?

Any feedback would be appreciated, either on this forum or by email to rvhgreen@outlook.com.

Robert

[rcaffin]

Precedents: well, most of the Huts have official caretakers, either Clubs or individuals. Hannels Spur had substantial clearing work done by volunteers under the guidance of NPWS.
So I reckon there are enough.

Cheers
Roger

[RVG]

I thought that Hannels had been done recently. Does anyone know any of the details?

What sort of work was done? Over what distance? Who organised the volunteers? Who initiated the work - NPWS or someone else?

[rcaffin]

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=25373&hilit=hannels+spur&start=30
Bottom of page 2
Not the full length by any means, but it was done under the auspices of the NPWS. They even helped out with their chopper.

Cheers
Roger

[Zapruda]

Thanks, Robert. I will email you tomorrow about volunteers.

I walked up and down Hannels after the track was cut in April this year. The track was cut 300 meters below Moiras flat to just above the treeline. The work done just above and below Moiras was extensive. The first 6km of the “track” remains uncut and is extremely scrubby. I believe there are plans to cut it all the way to the bottom but that might just be rumour.

Here is my trip report with lots of photos - viewtopic.php?f=47&t=27627

A few volunteers were involved In the clearing of Hannels, Tim McCartney Snape included.

This was sent to me by someone involved after I completed the walk.

* The offical track 'cutting' team team was composed of 2 offical NPWS rangers and 7 volunteers. The whole Hannel's Spur recut had several volunteers that are quote 'elite' amongst the Australian explorers/adventurists and some names you would know. The initial 6day project was delayed/shortened due to problems with wind/weather vs. helicopter and OHS considerations. The track would've been cleared further down from Moira's - but we had time limits with helicopter/weather time windows. More was probably achieved than expected.

I’ll be in touch soon.

Cheers.

[Mark F]

The old bridle trail from TableTop down Arsenic Ridge has me interested - rvg posted a map section back on page 2 of this thread. I have just returned from the National Library where I examined both the 1" and 4" SMA topos of the area dating from the early sixties. One interesting thing noted was that Brooks Hut is shown in a different location to the 1" and current maps - about 200 metres NW of the current location where the old road (no longer visible) coming in from the east meets the bridle trail. It also shows an unnamed hut at the current hut site. The 1" series only shows the hut at the current site.

Brooks hut - SMA 4" series

[rcaffin]

Hi Mark
Very interesting. The old road is gone for sure. The current access is from the corner in the Grey Mare FT as shown at the bottom. It has a good barrier where it crosses Happy Jacks. As tourists cannot get onto that road, one wonders who the NPWS is blocking: SMA staff maybe?

I can't say I have ever seen any hut at the position marked on top of the knoll, nor any remains, and we have been up Arsenic a few times. Lost in the snow gums maybe?

I have seen no trace of the track to the west, nor of the track running S & SW from Brooks. If they were just furrows in the snow grass they could be long gone. Mind you the one to the S & SW is kinda logical. Must have a look one day.

Cheers
Roger

[RVG]

I have attached a copy of the parish map for 1929 for the Parish of Scott. It includes Arsenic Ridge.

The source of the map was David Scott, a conservation architect, and noted heritage consultant for the Kosciuszko region, who has compiled a very substantial database of maps, mining, SMA and many other records for the region. David used his database to prepare maps which show the location of many of the huts, mines and other features which appear in the records. Graham Scully, Greg Hutchison, John Williams and I, together with some others, used David's raw material to search for and locate many of the features mentioned in the records, all of which is a preamble to saying that David's records and locations are a very helpful source of material.

What is interesting about this map is that it shows that Arsenic Ridge has a long history. It was certainly an access route to the Kiandra Goldfields from the south and may have been used by early Aborigines as an access to the Jagungal and Main Range regions from the north. What this map shows is that for a time it was a TSR (Travelling Stock Route).

The map also shows the road which has been mentioned. That road appears on the 1899 and 1920 editions of the parish map, but it is the 1929 version which describes it in detail as running from Adaminaby to "Bogong?".

[RVG]

Just to add to the previous post a little.

The parish map shows the road as coming from Adaminaby and generally heading south west across the plain. The original road did not go to Brooks Hut. Presumably SMA ran an offshoot from it to Brooks.

[climberman]

...

[RVG]

The road shown on the map for the Parish of Scott extended south across the Parish of Clear Hill.

A copy of the 1937 plan for Clear Hill is attached. It shows a continuation of the road to a TSR at Crooks Racecourse. So it would appear that this road may have been the origin of that part of the Grey Mare Fire Trail which runs from Crooks Racecourse to Happy Jacks Plain.

To the west of it a TSR is shown as running north from Ryrie's Farm, through Doubtful Gap, along Diggers Creek and then on to Arsenic Ridge. That was the route taken by the early miners heading for Kiandra. It looks like the Ryries used it too.

It's all part of the story about how different groups, (aborigines, miners, graziers, SMA and bushwalkers) have used the same, logical, routes to get around the country over the ages.

[climberman]

The road shown on the map for the Parish of Scott extended south across the Parish of Clear Hill.

A copy of the 1937 plan for Clear Hill is attached. It shows a continuation of the road to a TSR at Crooks Racecourse. So it would appear that this road may have been the origin of that part of the Grey Mare Fire Trail which runs from Crooks Racecourse to Happy Jacks Plain.

To the west of it a TSR is shown as running north from Ryrie's Farm, through Doubtful Gap, along Diggers Creek and then on to Arsenic Ridge. That was the route taken by the early miners heading for Kiandra. It looks like the Ryries used it too.

It's all part of the story about how different groups, (aborigines, miners, graziers, SMA and bushwalkers) have used the same, logical, routes to get around the country over the ages.

Great map RVG. Thanks for linking.

[RVG]

Heritage Tracks within Kosciuszko National Park final as at 29 August 2018.pdf

(1.92 MiB) Downloaded 673 times

Graham Scully, Stef de Montis and I recently met with NPWs to discuss a draft submission suggesting that, for heritage reasons, at least one or two of the old tracks in KNP be kept open before they are consumed by regrowth.

The prime candidates for some minimal work are part of the Bulls Peaks Fire Trail and part of the Strawberry Hill Fire Trail (down Strumbo Hill to the Grey Mare Fire Trail).

A copy of the draft submission is attached.

The heritage issue arises from the fact that the Jagungal Wilderness Area, while now designated a Wilderness, also happens to be an area which has a rich cultural history. Tracks and routes in that area were originally used by aborigines on a seasonal basis, and were later used by graziers, miners, the Snowy Mountains Authority, record setting skiers and runners, and, in more modern times, bushwalkers.

We received a good hearing but the issue is “Given the terms of the Wilderness Act and the Kosciuszko National Park Plan of Management, what work can be done in Wilderness Areas to preserve cultural heritage?”

Does anyone know the answer to that question?

[Zapruda]

Absolutely fantastic work, Robert.