2 UL quilt combo for broad temperature range

[Se88o]

I'm currently using a sleeping bag but as an active sleeper I find myself getting twisted and tangled. I'm ready to jump into some UL quilts.

I want to get 2 quilts to cover many conditions. -5c (snowys shoulder seasons) to 20c (hinterland summers) and a bunch of temps in between (blue mountains). I'd like to be comfortable at both those extremes but not have some weird range in the middle where neither quilt suits. The most common range would be 0-10c. Assume I'm between a cold and hot sleeper, 178cm 85kg male.

Which 2 quilts would you go for? I know Undercling Mike and Tier Gear are good Aussie options, but with excessive lead times at the moment I'd also be interested in thoughts from abroad (EE, UGQ, Katabatic). Price wise I'm happy to "buy once cry once" but also interested in good economical options if it makes sense for one or both quilts.

Cheers!

[crollsurf]

I got a -6C down quilt and a +10C Apex quilt which is a good combo for me in NSW. -6C plus ski gear in the snow in Spring is fine but the Thermarest Neo Xlite + foil-linned 3mm mat only just hangs in there . Good thing about the +10 in Summer is you can use it as a throw over on the warmer nights and being synth means getting it wet, isn't a big deal like down.
I don't ski tour in Winter but I think the -6 and +10 would work fine. It'll be the mat that won't be up to it. An Xtherm will be my replacement when the Xlite dies.

As a restless sleeper, you are going to love the move to quilts but there is a small learning curve in the cold, to make sure there are no draughts along the side.

I got Enlighened Equipement Revelation Quilts but Mike didn't make XL long, XL wide back then. I'd go Mikes now but the EE quilts are also v good.

[Se88o]

Great info, cheers.

Now that it's summer I guess I can swallow the lead time on a -8c from Mike and just buy the Apex now to get me through the next few months.

[Moondog55]

Don't discount the current S2S quilts either, especially if you can get one on sale.
Personally I don't like quilts for cold weather; which for me is anything under about 14C; but I do like my current combination of the S2S Traveller and my custom APEX overquilt. The combination of an APEX outer quilt plus a lightweight down quilt or sleeping bag will cover almost all the likely weather combinations here in Australia. If you do decide to go with layered quilts remember that the outer unit has to be both longer and wider than the inner by a good bit

[Se88o]

Cheers Moondog.

I like this idea of layering too - 2 bags for *most* situations and layered to push further into the shoulder seasons. Out of interest, if I were to get a large/wide 10c quilt (apex or S2S) any estimation of how many degrees that will add to the inner quilt?

**Edit: nevermind, found the EE layering guide**

[Moondog55]

I find that the EE layering guide is quite good but 5 degrees on the optimistic side in our humid winter conditions. Also I consider 100GSM the sweet spot for APEX insulation if using ultralite shell fabrics.
Don't forget that if you are going to be using a quilt in winter you will need a separate hood or wear a jacket with a really warm and well fitting hood as an insulation layer. Following on from crollsurfs post; my personal experience is that with quilts your mattress system really matters where warmth is concerned and if you are camping on snow it is very difficult to have too much insulation.
The minimum for snow is doubled CCF pads, I use a RidgeRest solar Extra Large plus a bit of foam and plastic flooring underlay as well as my S2S Comfort + insulated air mat

[Se88o]

Yeah I'll need to sort out headwear solution for the winter, but I think I have the mattress system sorted. I have an exped synmat winter and a CCF pad which has taken me basically as low as I'd be looking to go.

So I think I'm sold on a -5ish down inner layer, any recommendations on where to pick up an apex outer? (presumably I could use this as the only layer for the warmest climates too)?

[Lamont]

Terra Rosa

[Heremeahappy1]

I use a +4c and a -2c UC Mike quilt. Incl nesting/layering the two quilts for up to -10c, this gives me three options. All for under 900g.

[Moondog55]

I don't know how big the footbox on a TerraRosa quilt is but if layering it needs to be at least 50mm bigger in diametrer than the underneath unit. I'd like to see a little more information on Evans website but I've been assuming they are 1500mm wide at the top minus seam allowances because that is the width of most fabrics

[Se88o]

Cool this is helpful.

I'll definitely get a custom job to make sure the outer is longer/wider than the inner.

I understand apex is good for the outer for moisture management, but how big of an issue is this with 2x down quilts? Any experiences Heremeahappy1? I like the potential pack size/weight savings of that option.

[Moondog55]

That is an excellent question.
I have to say that it depends on how long you will be away and whether or not you get a chance to dry out the bags. My own APEX overquilt weighs 715g, but it is extra wide and extra long to cover an Expedition down bag and incorporates some extra fabric in the form of a mat sleeve, 600mm long and has extra pad straps which add about 15g
100GSM and adds about 10C to my bags rating. Some people can push 100GSM much lower but I rate it for 15C
A report over at BPL has mentioned a sewn through down overbag getting frozen and clumping badly and therefore useless after 3 days at a relatively mild -20C
https://enlightenedequipment.com/enigma-apex-custom/
An Enigma Long/Wide weighs 540g in the 40F bag, pretty much the same as the similar bag from Evan and at a comparable cost but shipping from the USA at the moment is both very slow and expensive

[Heremeahappy1]

Moondog's spot on, a broader/wider quilt/bag to enable appropriate loft is critical for nesting/layering. I've managed about -7c comfortably with this setup, but I also run hot. I can't comment on MD55s mild -20c conditions, but on multiday trips down performance will suffer unless regular airing/sunning of gear as per Moondogs advice. Another consideration is your shelter and location. Dew point factor in cold temps could mean condensation between your quilt layers and in sub zero temps this means ice. Only had this happen twice, in valleys with water/moisture present and clear nights with no cover. I'm simple and this subject is best left to the experts, I pitch under trees, sleep slightly cooler instead of sweatingly hot, aim for air flow and breathe into a buff to grab the moisture from your breath. I've previously used a GTX bivvy over sleeping bag in tent on ski trips 5-9 days duration. Pushes the dew point to the outside of the bivvy where you can wipe off any ice without compromising the down bag/quilt.

[Se88o]

Thanks guys.

Yeah both your use cases sound a bit more hardcore than mine. Realistically I'm not going to be doing a heaps of freezing hiking, and when I do, it won't be for longer than a few days. The 2nd quilt is probably going to get more use in warm climates as a single layer. So down might be a reasonable option.

If I end up doing a bunch more super cold weather stuff and condensation becomes an issue, I can always grab an apex a year or so down the track.

Thanks for all the help.

[slparker]

I have a -1 and a -6 EE REvelation quilt.

I am a warm sleeper but the-1 is good to just under freezing with a midlayer on. The -6 is a great all round bag for under freezing if you don't want the hassle of adding layers. I took the -6 to peru and had some cold nights at altitude but can't be certain of the temperature.

The only time I went down to -10 was with my old sleeping bag (rated to 0) with the -1 quilt and I was very toasty.

I'd be confident double layering both the quilts to way below zero - it's a versatile system. If I was going to buy again I might go a wider quilt for the top layer. Just to give more room.

[Moondog55]

Doubling up any system works, some systems work better than others for different people.
My own favourite is a good down parka plus elephants foot inside an extra large but relatively lightly insulated outer bag.
Rogers idea of using a lightweight oversized technical blanket as a cover and extra insulation for a couple using their personal lightweight sleeping bags works like a charm and climbers have been sharing warmth like this for a while now

[Petew]

Doubling up any system works, some systems work better than others for different people.
My own favourite is a good down parka plus elephants foot inside an extra large but relatively lightly insulated outer bag.
Rogers idea of using a lightweight oversized technical blanket as a cover and extra insulation for a couple using their personal lightweight sleeping bags works like a charm and climbers have been sharing warmth like this for a while now

I believe Macpac have just released such a blanket

https://www.macpac.com.au/auto/sleeping ... AU&start=4
I think as a general all rounder you can't go wrong with an EE enigma/revelation in a 20f variation. I bought a 20f enigma a few years ago in wide and it covers pretty much everything apart from snow camping or high summer.

[Se88o]

Yeah I'm definitely considering 20f as my "main quilt" for most situations. Problem is the 2 extremes you mention are situations I'd like to cover too. It seems a 20f 40f combo will add enough versatility to include snow and high summer.

[Moondog55]

20F is about -7C, adding the 40F over the top would take you down to about -20C before you factor in extra clothing

[Se88o]

Probably overkill when you say it like that haha. Good to have that option though if I need it. For my most frequent temps the 20 on its own seems like the most versatile, and a 40 quilt would get a bit more use than a 50.

[Moondog55]

If you are going to be truly UL you need to take into account your warm clothing layers that are part of your normal kit, something like the Uniqlo UL down parka worn over a fleece can add 10C or more when worn inside your sleeping bag / quilt. You don't have to wear the parka either, you can pull the sleeves inside to increase the loft and simply lay it over your torso or add a set of buttons to the down garment and matching loops on the quilt and secure the garment to the outside.
I've never done that, I prefer to wear the clothing so if I need to get up in the middle of the nite to shovel snow off the tent or pee I'm already halfway dressed.

[wildwanderer]

The choice of cold temp quilt is a tough one.

Depends on a lot of variables.

Like where in the quilt is the down distributed, do you feel cold in your upper body or lower, sides to chest.. (you want more down in those areas.

The mat makes a massive difference.

Hot or cold sleeper (as you mentioned) is huge.

Do you usually take a down jacket with hood on trips? That can make a big difference if you wear that while sleeping.

I'm a cold sleeper and using a -10 Mike quilt with a beefy down jacket w hood and xlite mat it will have me toasty to about -5c. Any colder and I start feeling a bit cool..not freezing but definitely not comfortable.

[Moondog55]

If you wish to trial a synthetic quilt option as an additional layer to boost warmth [ but not by much] you can get surplus Australian Army "Tropical Blankets" for around $30- each.
Upside is the low cost, downsides are the weight and bulk and they are less than 6mm thick when new.
The same as the American woobie/poncho liner. The same insulation as the M-65 jacket liner, rated at just under a Clo, 0.9 Clo when new
Here's the link to that Macpac blanket mentioned above.
https://www.macpac.com.au/macpac-nzat-h ... 00-OS.html

[Speedgull]

Having been a long time sleeping bag user, initially down then later synthetic. Recently I discovered "Ground Quilts"

I was never a big fan of sleeping mats as in the past they were fragile and unless you had a thick canvas ground sheet they were not worth the money for "rough" camping

Was one over by the S2S Ether X Lite insulated mat. Then discovered quilts!

After much research I ordered a UGQ Bandit Down -1. I was blown away when it arrived, this was amazing. Very impressive set up, well designed. They think of everything.

Long and the short of it, ordered a second UGQ Bandit quilt, this time a synthetic rated to -4 this will be my wet weather winter sleep system

[jjoz58]

I've gone this route and have 2 EE quilts. A 30F down and a 50F synthetic. The 50F is one size larger and wider so when combined with there sub zero straps, synthetic to the outside, it has a temp rating of 10F. Works for me and I can handle a lot of different situations. I've used it down to single digits F on the AT.

[Se88o]

Thanks everyone.

I've ended up biting the bullet with EE. A 20f down and a long/wide 50f apex.

The 20 being my main system - I'll do a lot of camping around the freezing mark and didn't want to have to carry 2 bags too often which I'd have to if I went with a 30. I know I can vent it well enough to not get too hot in that range just before switching to the apex, too.

The apex will also get a run on its own often enough over summer for 15c+ nights and it's super light/packable.

Combined it should get me toward -10c for the couple of times per year I want to do that. Any colder I'm just not going out lol.

Really happy with the outcome and would have missed the mark massively without the input - cheers.

[Moondog55]

Quick and roughly calculated I get -20C for the combination so a good safety margin for any extremes and easily boosted by wearing all your clothing

[jjoz58]

Thanks everyone.

I've ended up biting the bullet with EE. A 20f down and a long/wide 50f apex.

The chart of this page gives you what 2 combined bags/quilts end up temperature wise. Yours is 0F or 18C combined. It is the same combo as mine except I went 30F. As my daughter found out on the PCT warm sleeping quilts mean nothing when the mat is not rated for the temperatures.

Just as a side I'm experimenting with the Alpaca liner and the 30F quilt. Had them down to -5C and was as warm as toast. Incredibly soft and like merino no smell even after 10 days.

[jjoz58]

forgot the link.
https://enlightenedequipment.com/quilt- ... g-adapter/

[Se88o]

Ahh, yes I did reference that page at EE I must have looked up 30x50 by mistake. I don't think I'm keen to test that limit anytime soon but good to know there's that buffer!