snake bite

[isoma]

Hi Kevin,
Thanks for reading my post
The vast majority of snake bite victims (all of them in my experience) are conscious when they present to hospital.
A lot of them dont have adequate or any compression bandages prior to the ambulance arriving or medical intervention. It is then quite a simple matter to mark over the identified site.

firstly applying a pad over the bite site followed by the snake immobilisation bandage. It would become obvious at the Hospital end where the bite site is!

- this is why the bandaging is chunkier

[Kevin]

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Last edited by Kevin on Fri 24 Dec, 2010 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Kevin]

Contents removed by poster.

Last edited by Kevin on Fri 24 Dec, 2010 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

[isoma]

Kevin,
I'm certainly no expert. I would say at most I would have dealt with one a month on average. Its not something I'm exposed to any more though.
Sadly, most patients didnt have a PIB applied until the ambos came to the rescue. No patient had a bad outcome and I can only recall ever needing to give antivenom twice.
None of the victims were bushwalkers. None of them were sitting at their desk either though

Can we be friends now ?

[Bush Walker]

Thanks to Kevin, isoma, ozjolly, Lindsay, cams for posting and helping me to understand why St John may have changed their recommendations on snakebite treatment in the last few years.

Disclaimer: the advice below should be checked with a medical/snakebite authority before use.

If I can summarise what I think you have all told me (please correct me):

don't wash (or cut or suck) the wound
apply a firm heavy crepe bandage over a broad pressure bandage (crepe) applied to the site of the puncture wound as quickly as possible
bandage from the extremities (distal to proximal) towards the trunk
apply a splint to the limb
don't remove the pressure bandage to check for the location of the puncture wound
ask the patient, if conscious, where they were bitten
venom is identified by taking a swab either from the fabric above the wound, or by cutting a window in the bandage above the pressure pad, not by removing the bandage
make sure expert assistance is at hand with the correct anti-venom, which has been identified with a venom test kit, before allowing anyone to release the pressure bandage (PIB)

venom is absorbed and transport through the lymphatic system not blood system
bandaging towards the extremities may cause patient discomfort

Should be obvious, but don't run for help or chase the snake! Lay still.

One other piece of advice I was given at the course, was that if you have mobile phone reception and are in the metro area and are alone, it may be better to wait for the ambulance to attend rather than try to bandage and splint yourself. The activity involved in doing this may circulate the venom. Better to lay perfectly still and wait for help! Any comment

Last edited by Bush Walker on Sun 05 Dec, 2010 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

[tasadam]

One thing to bear in mind is that in Tasmania there are only 3 snakes and the same anti-venom is used for all three. (I'm glad I proof read, I had typed "snale"...)

[tasadam]

This is topical: http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/warning-after-wa-snakebite-death-20101201-18gjj.html

So don't be too worried about snakes on your next walk... be more worried about what's under your desk as you post to bushwalk.com!

Aw, gee, THANKS!! (not)...
I'm sitting here at the computer with bare feet and I've got the shivers!
Freaky...

[Liamy77]

its ok, don't worry tasadam - there's no big brown snakes or dugites down your way............. Tiger snakes & spiders maybe! ....

[Kevin]

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Last edited by Kevin on Fri 24 Dec, 2010 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Kevin]

Contents removed by poster.

Last edited by Kevin on Fri 24 Dec, 2010 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Lindsay]

Reading this thread mas made me think back to when I was a kid in the 60s. Dad had a first aid kit that contained a tourniqiet, a bottle of condys crystals and a small knife as snake bite treatment. I'm glad we never had to use it!

[Bush Walker]

Reading this thread mas made me think back to when I was a kid in the 60s. Dad had a first aid kit that contained a tourniqiet, a bottle of condys crystals and a small knife as snake bite treatment. I'm glad we never had to use it!

Things keep changing which makes me think that maybe the snakebite treatment we are currently using can be further improved.

[Liamy77]

everything can be improved and adapted to circumstance.... medicine is just trying to find the best balance in "available treatment" Vs "side effects"

new knowledge, field testing, and economic support will bring better treatments and practices i reckon...
ultimately it won't change from your own perspective - you just do the best you can at the time!

[tasadam]

In addition to a couple of topics on the forum -
Bushwalker Bitten by Snake on West Coast
and
Tiger Snake victim - Mt Stormbreaker
I just found this article -
British tourist bitten 'down under' by deadly Aussie snake

As Jackson Scott crouched in the dark at a remote Tasmanian farm, a highly venomous tiger snake bit his testicle,

A similar incident made headlines across Australia in 2008 when a deadly brown snake bit a tourist's penis while he made a roadside restroom stop in a remote area northwest of Cairns

How unfortunate (for them!)...

[photohiker]

At least the snakes have got the decency to bite overseas tourists.

I guess they have a reputation to maintain!

[baldhead]

Has anyone heard anything more about the angina cream discovery last year were applying the cream helps slow down the affects of snake bite

I posted the background to this last year

TItled Snakebite: Cream Improving Survival Time ( sorry haven't worked out how to insert a link to another post)

Cheers

[WarrenH]

Been talking to a Herpetologist and he said"tigers don't attack ever"...

They will I'm lead to believe. This was told to me by the wife of a friend who was confronted a Tiger Snake in the courtyard of her home. She swung a rake at it and didn't kill it. Her husband came to her defense because she was screeming. The snake then bailed him up in the corner of the courtyard for several minutes while he then fought the snake off while it repeatedly tried to attack him ... until he finally killed the snake.

I know that Eastern Browns attack. At Googong dam, an Eastern Brown Snake was lying motionless beside the road. I had stopped my 4x4 about 7-8m from the snake and waited for the snake to move. After about 10 minutes it hadn't moved, so I got out and chucked a rock near the snake. I missed the snake and the snake got showered in gravelly bits. About a foot in front of the snake a rabbit, which I hadn't seen bolted out of the grass. The snake rose-up flattened its neck and within another second it has reached my car and bit the driver's side front tire, several times. The snake traveled so quickly I nearly crapped myself. Eastern Browns have very short fuses. The snake could have been hunting for hours, I can see why it got cross. I'm glad it thought that my car had thrown the rock.

I've a friend who lives near Lake George, who's Mother Mrs B is a totally mad snake person. Mrs B ran over a snake and killed it in their driveway and she picked the snake up and put it into her shopping bag, she was taking into the Australian National Uni to have it identified but she called into the Uni Credit Union on the way. When the shopping bag was on the counter the snake woke-up, slid out of the bag and raced across the floor of the Credit Union. The snake cleared out the Credit Union until an ACT Parks Ranger caught the snake, a Tiger Snake ... which took the ranger about 2 hours to find it hiding behind a filing cabinet. This was a big story at the Uni when I was working there in the Prehistory Department ... Prehistory which now called Archaeology, which is very close to the ANU Credit Union. We saw everyone standing out side the Credit Union, but only later did I find out what had caused the crazy event. I got big props from my colleagues for knowing Mrs B.

On another occasion the same lady Mrs B, found a dead kitten at the entrance to her barn. The mother cat and several other mature cats had a Tiger Snake bailed up against a wall inside the barn. Mrs B went and got a shotgun, came back and blew the snakes head off from point blank. Unknown to her, her son (my friend Peter) had come home into his lounge room which was on the other side of the wall. Half the barn was converted into a flat by Peter. Peter was sitting on his couch directly on the other side of the wall, when a shotgun blast ripped through the wall next to him. Peter showed me the hole in the barn wall, which was no bigger than a thumb nail and the headless Tiger Snake ... but the hole in the couch was big enough to hide a water melon.

Anyway, do you remember this old two part saying, if you kill a snake its not really dead? ... because snakes don't die until after sundown.

Warren.

Last edited by WarrenH on Wed 22 Feb, 2012 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

She swung a rake at it

chucked a rock at it

They will (attack) I'm lead to believe.

If you provoke or corner them, then yes, of course they will attack.

I am most definitely not a snake person, in fact, as a very science orientated person, I like to think I don't have irrational fears - but I do of snakes, it makes me nervous just thinking about them. But I've come across probably at least 10 tiger snakes in the last few years while walking in Tasmania and have gone very close to stepping on some of them. Normally they are racing away from me as I come around the corner, but even if I startle them as soon as I freeze they just turn around and slither away as quickly as they can. They are more scared of us than we are of them.

I don't believe the so called "more aggressive" snakes like the Tiger or Eastern Brown would deliberately attack a human, unless they were provoked, cornered with no escape, or accidentally trod on.

Next time, make sure you and the missus don't start swinging rakes or throwing rocks at snakes, and I think you'll find they will slither off as quickly as possible.

[WarrenH]

If you provoke or corner them, then yes, of course they will attack.

Of course they will attack when hassled ... I just wanted to tell some colourful snake stories.

I've two more snake stories about how they don't attack. I'd been walking on the track along Caves Creek at the Blue Water Holes on the Northern Frost Plains of Kosciuszko NP. I'd seen a Tiger and a Copperhead and I was walking through waist high Pimelea and I had stopped to have a snack. After a minute or two the guy I was with said "On top of the bush behind you is a Tiger Snake." I'd been standing beside the bush for a few minutes. When I had bent down to open my pack it had a free shot and didn't take it.

I live right on the edge of town against the paddocks. My next door neighbours had parrots in a large avery in their back yard. The mice would come for the bird seed and the snakes would come for the mice. Snakes have very good memories about where to find an easy meal. Even when the bird lady moved on and took her parrots with her, the snakes still kept visiting ... intermittently, for quite a long time. The snakes always Tigers, would take a short cut across in front of my workshop. When ever I enter the workshop, on every occasion, I do a quick snake check. A while back, I had the front of the workshop open and I was in sandals and shorts, I'd been standing still for a while, I was shaping a rudder, just doing the fine finishing, only moving my hands not my feet, while I worked. I looked over the edge of the rudder and there was a cream coloured snake only about a metre long, about a foot from my feet. For about 20 minutes I stood still. Then my cat Alice came into the workshop, she had a go at the snake, when the snake had ago at Alice I bolted. Then the snake slid away towards nextdoor's avery. Several cats in our street, mostly kittens, have been killed by snakes.

The pale cream snake was a Tiger Snake, sometimes the only way to tell if a Tiger Snake is a Tiger when only eyeballing one, is in the centre of their under belly and only slightly visible on the snake's side there are a few stripes. Here in the ACT Tiger Snakes come in a wide range of colours and shades and the intensity of their stripes can be from very distinct to none showing ... apart from the tell-tale stripes on their belly.

Warren.

Last edited by WarrenH on Wed 22 Feb, 2012 9:37 am, edited 3 times in total.

[tasadam]

A chap was telling me a story last night of a Tasmanian creek they were walking up, they passed one large snake and shortly after, found another. They turned around to discover the first one coming after them! They learnt how fast they could run.

[WarrenH]

The average Australian venomous snake can travel at 11kph (7mph) ... that's faster than most older bushwalkers can move through the bush, I'm guessing.

That could be why so many African distance runners are inherently brilliant ... Black Mambas are scary fast over long distances.

Warren.

[north-north-west]

Been talking to a Herpetologist and he said"tigers don't attack ever"...

Bull.
Tigers are ovoviviparous and, like many live bearers, the mothers are VERY protective of their young. I've been unfortunate enough to come between a mother Tiger and her brood and am only here today to talk about it because there was someone else there at the time to distract the snake so I could quietly sidle out of harm's way.

[Strider]

Been talking to a Herpetologist and he said"tigers don't attack ever"...

Bull.
Tigers are ovoviviparous and, like many live bearers, the mothers are VERY protective of their young. I've been unfortunate enough to come between a mother Tiger and her brood and am only here today to talk about it because there was someone else there at the time to distract the snake so I could quietly sidle out of harm's way.

Make that oviparous

[jackhinde]

Been talking to a Herpetologist and he said"tigers don't attack ever"...

They will I'm lead to believe. This was told to me by the wife of a friend who was confronted a Tiger Snake in the courtyard of her home. She swung a rake at it and didn't kill it. Her husband came to her defense because she was screeming. The snake then bailed him up in the corner of the courtyard for several minutes while he then fought the snake off while it repeatedly tried to attack him ... until he finally killed the snake.

I know that Eastern Browns attack. At Googong dam, an Eastern Brown Snake was lying motionless beside the road. I had stopped my 4x4 about 7-8m from the snake and waited for the snake to move. After about 10 minutes it hadn't moved, so I got out and chucked a rock near the snake. I missed the snake and the snake got showered in gravelly bits. About a foot in front of the snake a rabbit, which I hadn't seen bolted out of the grass. The snake rose-up flattened its neck and within another second it has reached my car and bit the driver's side front tire, several times. The snake traveled so quickly I nearly crapped myself. Eastern Browns have very short fuses. The snake could have been hunting for hours, I can see why it got cross. I'm glad it thought that my car had thrown the rock.

I've a friend who lives near Lake George, who's Mother Mrs B is a totally mad snake person. Mrs B ran over a snake and killed it in their driveway and she picked the snake up and put it into her shopping bag, she was taking into the Australian National Uni to have it identified but she called into the Uni Credit Union on the way. When the shopping bag was on the counter the snake woke-up, slid out of the bag and raced across the floor of the Credit Union. The snake cleared out the Credit Union until an ACT Parks Ranger caught the snake, a Tiger Snake ... which took the ranger about 2 hours to find it hiding behind a filing cabinet. This was a big story at the Uni when I was working there in the Prehistory Department ... Prehistory which now called Archaeology, which is very close to the ANU Credit Union. We saw everyone standing out side the Credit Union, but only later did I find out what had caused the crazy event. I got big props from my colleagues for knowing Mrs B.

On another occasion the same lady Mrs B, found a dead kitten at the entrance to her barn. The mother cat and several other mature cats had a Tiger Snake bailed up against a wall inside the barn. Mrs B went and got a shotgun, came back and blew the snakes head off from point blank. Unknown to her, her son (my friend Peter) had come home into his lounge room which was on the other side of the wall. Half the barn was converted into a flat by Peter. Peter was sitting on his couch directly on the other side of the wall, when a shotgun blast ripped through the wall next to him. Peter showed me the hole in the barn wall, which was no bigger than a thumb nail and the headless Tiger Snake ... but the hole in the couch was big enough to hide a water melon.

Anyway, do you remember this old two part saying, if you kill a snake its not really dead? ... because snakes don't die until after sundown.

Warren.

absolute gold... please can i post this on forums i more frequently frequent than this locality. some fellow herpetologists may literally p their pants (an uptight one could potentially have a stroke0

seriously though, the 4th poster in this thread answered the question quite well.

[kbm63]

Worst was the brown snake in the front yard going along the bricks at the front of the house, going into the garage and then into the folded pram so only the tip of it's tail could be seen. So glad it was seen BEFORE unfolding the pram and popping one of the kids on top of it.

[north-north-west]

Been talking to a Herpetologist and he said"tigers don't attack ever"...

Bull.
Tigers are ovoviviparous and, like many live bearers, the mothers are VERY protective of their young. I've been unfortunate enough to come between a mother Tiger and her brood and am only here today to talk about it because there was someone else there at the time to distract the snake so I could quietly sidle out of harm's way.

Make that oviparous

I had an excess of Vs on the Scrabble rack.

[jackhinde]

Been talking to a Herpetologist and he said"tigers don't attack ever"...

Bull.
Tigers are ovoviviparous and, like many live bearers, the mothers are VERY protective of their young. I've been unfortunate enough to come between a mother Tiger and her brood and am only here today to talk about it because there was someone else there at the time to distract the snake so I could quietly sidle out of harm's way.

tigers are ovoviviparous, CORRECT

tigers protective of young INCORRECT

...and at risk of making an internet enemy, your story is silly.

when breeding livebearing species such as tigers and copperheads it is important to remove young quickly, otherwise they become mum's post-natal snack!

[Overlandman]

Having been a Herpetologist for 32 years I can back up what jackhinde has stated, Tigers definately don't protect their young.
As soon as they are born they are on their own.
Regards Overlandman

[north-north-west]

*shrug*
Maybe she was after a snack then. All I know is there was a bunch of very small tigers in a clump of grass behind the bin I'd just lifted, and one very pissed off adult heading my way.

[tasadam]

*shrug*
Maybe she was after a snack then.

Things you learn on a forum... Next time you will know to have the tim tams ready.

I didn't know Tigers weren't protective of their young either, the one time we found a very young Tiger we didn't hang around, as the conversation went, for mum to return... Or Grandpa!


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