Is your Club Size Diminishing and your Membership Ageing?

[Bush Walker]

Thanks for those observations davidmorr.

From my experience, this is not quite correct. We do see a few people retiring and taking up bushwalking, but the majority of our new members are empty nesters, and singles and childless couples from late thirties to early 50s. What retirement does bring is the ability to do more trips at the weekend, as tasks that used to be done of a weekend can now be done during the week. Trips can also be done in the middle of the week.And I might add that with people working such odd hours nowadays, we find that even people still working but with a day off in the middle of the week will often come along.

[Bush Walker]

My present club would require Jon Muir to prove himself on three overnight walks before he could become a full member and Andrew Lock (google the name if not familiar) would need to lead two mentored overnight walks at a required standard before he could even get his walk proposals listed on the club program, let alone actually lead them.

For those who don't know:

Andew Lock
John Muir

Obviously your Club sets high standards!

[ILUVSWTAS]

My present club would require Jon Muir to prove himself on three overnight walks before he could become a full member and Andrew Lock (google the name if not familiar) would need to lead two mentored overnight walks at a required standard before he could even get his walk proposals listed on the club program, let alone actually lead them.

For those who don't know:

Andew Lock
John Muir

Obviously your Club sets high standards!

Yes!! And, is this a good thing?? I mean really?
Surely people experienced enough in leading most overnight trips in your clubs area might be offended by being compared to such?? Just a thought, personally i'm glad My local club has decided to drop it's "stuck so far up itself" clause slightly enough to let mortals like me guide SOME walks.....

[davidmorr]

Yes!! And, is this a good thing?? I mean really?
Surely people experienced enough in leading most overnight trips in your clubs area might be offended by being compared to such?? Just a thought, personally i'm glad My local club has decided to drop it's "stuck so far up itself" clause slightly enough to let mortals like me guide SOME walks.....

It's all about "appropriateness". Yes, you obviously need to be very fit and very skilled to lead walks in untracked and/or dangerous wilderness.

But if it is a daywalk in a national park where the tracks are well known and the whole walk is straightforward.....

After all, they let the general public on them and they generally have less skills and fitness than even the most novice bushwalking club member.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Yes!! And, is this a good thing?? I mean really?
Surely people experienced enough in leading most overnight trips in your clubs area might be offended by being compared to such?? Just a thought, personally i'm glad My local club has decided to drop it's "stuck so far up itself" clause slightly enough to let mortals like me guide SOME walks.....

It's all about "appropriateness". Yes, you obviously need to be very fit and very skilled to lead walks in untracked and/or dangerous wilderness.

But if it is a daywalk in a national park where the tracks are well known and the whole walk is straightforward.....

After all, they let the general public on them and they generally have less skills and fitness than even the most novice bushwalking club member.

Exactly!!

[Nuts]

Would be as much about personality as skill?

[Liamy77]

I think personality can make or break a walk and indeed a club too....

[Nuts]

I once considered joining the Hobart club when I lived there, do remember the rules putting me off. I guess they worked on that occasion ..
Stands to reason though that some sort of show of dedication or commitment is valid (however old the prospective member). Desirable qualities. Even moreso when days from anywhere.

[mikethepike]

I think personality can make or break a walk and indeed a club too....

Hmm that seems pretty strong but it's not impossible if individuals can't put the club or the walk party before themselves. I was in an OS based literary club that almost bit the dust because a former committee member who was banned from the club because of his behaviour, challenged it in court. The court eventually ruled in the club's favour but imagine the cost to the club and the extra work and the stress it caused.
Personality is probably a factor in people's perceptions of compatibility, a term mentioned earlier by Bush_walker. Lotsafreshair's comment about members being prepared to cope with possible or likely changes in the club scene with changes in demographics resulting from efforts to increase club membership is a key consideration I think. Club members have a choice of walking with their peer group or joining in with or leading walks with a more mixed group of people, some of whom they might know very little about. If existing members always chose the first option, their club would probably sooner or later cease to exist.

With regards to personality and compatibility. I think that it's just a fact of life that in general, people tend to become less tolerant of others as they get older. On the other hand, I think that young people are more conscious of age differences than older people. A couple of times I've been surprised to hear younger walk/bike companions refer to me as old (eg telling my wife that I was 'pretty fit for an old man) when I regarded us all as peers and hardly even thought about the age difference. But it helps me to understand how young people might feel when they walk into a club meeting for the first time and see people mainly old enough to be their parents, if not their grandparents.

[davidmorr]

Personality is probably a factor in people's perceptions of compatibility, a term mentioned earlier by Bush_walker. Lotsafreshair's comment about members being prepared to cope with possible or likely changes in the club scene with changes in demographics resulting from efforts to increase club membership is a key consideration I think. Club members have a choice of walking with their peer group or joining in with or leading walks with a more mixed group of people, some of whom they might know very little about. If existing members always chose the first option, their club would probably sooner or later cease to exist.

All of these things have two sides. You cannot just accuse the longstanding members of not tolerating younger people. All the comments here seem to suggest that young people do not join clubs because they are not prepared tolerate older people. So it is not the older people keeping them away. It requires effort and goodwill on both sides to make these things work. SBW was very lucky that Lotsafreshair looked at it that way.

With regards to personality and compatibility. I think that it's just a fact of life that in general, people tend to become less tolerant of others as they get older.

Hmmm... Not sure I agree with that. People may get more set in their ways as they get older, and that may manifest itself as being cranky with people if they cannot get their way. But that's not the same as being less tolerant of others.

On the other hand, I think that young people are more conscious of age differences than older people. A couple of times I've been surprised to hear younger walk/bike companions refer to me as old (eg telling my wife that I was 'pretty fit for an old man) when I regarded us all as peers and hardly even thought about the age difference.

I had a defining moment like this recently. I had brought a new computer to a client's house and her 12 yo daughter was very concerned that she would be able to get her music from the old computer onto her iPod. I sat down and explained to her what I was doing and that we should be able to get her music right.

The following weekend, her mum rang me because they were having a problem with the Internet. She passed on a comment from the daughter: "I like David. For an old guy he knows a lot about computers and he doesn't smell."

As with mikethepike, that was the first time I had ever really thought of myself as old. I had always been just as I am, doing pretty much what I want to, just as I did when I was 20.

Oh, and take note that personal hygiene is a factor when dealing with young people.

[davidmorr]

Stands to reason though that some sort of show of dedication or commitment is valid (however old the prospective member). Desirable qualities. Even moreso when days from anywhere.

But it does seem that in order to join the club, you have to be quite experienced and fit. But isn't joining a club a way to get experienced and fit?

I know of quite a number of people who started off doing easy day walks, became fitter and more knowledgeable and ended up leading day walks. Some of these people went on to try backpacking and are regulars now. Some have even led backpacking trips.

If these people had been rejected up front, then both they and the club would have been the poorer.

[mikethepike]

With regards to personality and compatibility. I think that it's just a fact of life that in general, people tend to become less tolerant of others as they get older.

Hmmm... Not sure I agree with that. People may get more set in their ways as they get older, and that may manifest itself as being cranky with people if they cannot get their way. But that's not the same as being less tolerant of others.

Thanks David. 'More set in their ways' is I think what I meant to say. Looking back to my Uni club days, I can't help thinking just how non judgmental and indiscriminating we all once were (yes we've changed too no doubt!). How we'd just pile (cram is probably a better word) into someone's car and head off. By way of contrast, in my present club, I know that some members want go on walks with certain others for a variety of reasons and I'm no different.

I think that the first thing that young people will notice when they go with an older group on an overnight or extended walk is just how early people retire to bed. 'But the night is still young, it wasn't a long day, I'm still wide awake'. I know it shocked me at first but nowadays, I'll take along an mp3 player. In fact I sometimes wonder if people go to bed early for that very purpose as I have heard it said that "Well you've been with them all day, you've probably already talked about everything". In fact I think the club has an 8.30 lights down, noise down rule. Contrast that approach for example with my Uni club days when on one trip three of the party would entertain the rest of us late into the night around the campfire with re-enactments of the Goon Show series. Much fun and laughter. And all this with no prospective member or leader endorsement rigmaroles!

[davidmorr]

Thanks David. 'More set in their ways' is I think what I meant to say. Looking back to my Uni club days, I can't help thinking just how non judgmental and indiscriminating we all once were (yes we've changed too no doubt!). How we'd just pile (cram is probably a better word) into someone's car and head off. By way of contrast, in my present club, I know that some members want go on walks with certain others for a variety of reasons and I'm no different.

It's long been known that you pick the walks you go on by the leader. Some leaders are known to be gung-ho, some are poorly prepared, some are well prepared, some lead really tough walks, some accurately grade any trip they lead, and some repeatedly underestimate the difficulty of a trip. These are valid factors to choose which trips you go on.

I think that the first thing that young people will notice when they go with an older group on an overnight or extended walk is just how early people retire to bed. 'But the night is still young, it wasn't a long day, I'm still wide awake'. I know it shocked me at first but nowadays, I'll take along an mp3 player. In fact I sometimes wonder if people go to bed early for that very purpose as I have heard it said that "Well you've been with them all day, you've probably already talked about everything". In fact I think the club has an 8.30 lights down, noise down rule. Contrast that approach for example with my Uni club days when on one trip three of the party would entertain the rest of us late into the night around the campfire with re-enactments of the Goon Show series. Much fun and laughter. And all this with no prospective member or leader endorsement rigmaroles!

I've noticed that people go to bed early too. Sometimes it can be because they are cold. What puzzles me is that they will often carry a thick (and heavy) book to read, and lie in the tent reading for hours.

I am a night owl by nature, and enjoy sitting around the fire talking. Usually there are one or two people who will stay up reasonably late, but after 10pm it is usually me alone. But I do enjoy just looking at the fire and listening to the night sounds.



On a beach at the full moon earlier this month.

[Bush Walker]

The aim of this thread was to see if bushwalking clubs were experiencing the same decreasing and ageing membership which is common to so many other community groups.

A poll associated with the thread asked if membership was decreasing and 59% said no. Discussion that followed indicated that the increasing or stable membership could be partly explained as due to an increase in older members of 30-60 years, replacing even older members who were retiring from the Club. Few new members seemed to be <30 years age or if so, they rarely stopped for long.

Solutions were sought to this problem and some promising discussion occurred about removing disincentives to joining such as prerequisite overnight walks, the low number of younger walkers in clubs and its impact on recruitment and retention, the different needs of the under thirties, and the need for "clubs within clubs" for women and under 40's. Several Clubs reported success with using social media to attract new members while others had resorted to more traditional methods of seeking new members by face-to-face promotions in the community and by seeking ongoing relationships with youth groups.

Few individuals indicated that they were using social media in their clubs to encourage new members but it was unclear whether this was due to lack of knowledge about how to go about the task or whether there was disagreement in Clubs that this approach would work.

At this point, we seem to seem to have exhausted our discussion on possible solutions and are starting to wander off thread.

If there is further interest in pursuing this topic, I will start a new thread which will allow discussion about some web 2.0/social media websites (Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, Delicious) and how they might be used by Clubs to recruit and retain new members; possibly more younger members.

Thank you for your valuable contribution so far.

[davidmorr]

Solutions were sought to this problem and some promising discussion occurred about removing disincentives to joining such as prerequisite overnight walks, the low number of younger walkers in clubs and its impact on recruitment and retention, the different needs of the under thirties, and the need for "clubs within clubs" for women and under 40's. Several Clubs reported success with using social media to attract new members while others had resorted to more traditional methods of seeking new members by face-to-face promotions in the community and by seeking ongoing relationships with youth groups.

When you started this thread, you asked two questions:

1. Is your club size diminishing?
2. Is your membership aging?

But you mixed them into one question as if one was causing the other, ie, the diminishing size was due to no young people.

What has become clear from the discussion is that:
* most of the clubs represented here are not getting smaller; some are actually getting bigger
* some clubs are decreasing in membership, but only gradually
* some clubs are aging
* some are maintaining the average age by recruiting more "middle-aged" people
* one club has significantly increased its younger members by a new website and some experimentation with Facebook
* the officers of some clubs do not seem to be concerned that their membership is aging or declining, but members may be
* it is not known how this extends to clubs not represented here. This is a very small sample.

Reasons presented for people not joining clubs include:
* onerous entry requirements, for both young and old prospective members
* young people reportedly wanting to associate with other young people
* communication methods not appropriate for young people

Lotsafreshair also raised the very pertinent point that you need to be sure that people want to change before you introduce it. You may end up recruiting a few new people but losing all the old members.

Now it seems that from the beginning, you had a belief that clubs are declining because of no younger members, and that social media was the answer. Most of your postings were pushing that angle.

Instead the issue has been revealed to be quite complex with a variety of possible avenues to explore. All of this, of course, depends on club leadership recognising there is a problem and wanting to do something about it. This is not a given.

Social media may well be a part of a solution for many clubs. However, to date you have not really given any useful information about how social media would be useful to clubs and how they could maximise the benefits. Profiles of organisations before and after they embraced social media would be very helpful. Information on the specific techniques they used would stir thoughts of how it may be used in the bushwalking club context.

Also useful would be techniques for members who are concerned about the future of their club to initiate the idea of change within the club leadership.

Thanks for starting the thread. A lot of very useful information has come to light.

[Bush Walker]

Thanks davidmorr for your accurate summaries of the thread.

I was hoping for more input from Clubs that were using social media so that we could learn from their successes and failures. The lack of this feedback may mean that either clubs are not using social media (most likely) or that they are only tentatively testing the waters at this point and have not evaluated their results.
I don't have the answers at the moment but will go away and do some thinking and reading.

[tomh]

Any thoughts on this subject should include Meetup, rated (for what it's worth) '11th Most Popular Social Networking Website' by ebizmba.com. Sydney Bushies already use it as a sort of new member net with the only activities being regular 'New Member Info Nights'. Perhaps someone from SBW can let us know if this has been a success - as of today 107 prospective members have apparently used this Meetup entry. Link - http://www.meetup.com/Sydney-Bush-Walkers-Club/

US-based Meetup.com has several Aus. groups with bushwalking as a primary or secondary aim and if you haven't come across it before it's worth a look - http://www.meetup.com and search for 'bushwalking'. Anyone can set up a group for around $150pa. No committee needed, so you too can be Dear Leader. Mostly it's arranged to be free to become a member of a group with a small fee when you go on an activity - although the ones I looked at (I am not a member of any Meetup group) had high numbers of members but very few activities. There are very few rules also which should please some of the contributers to this thread. However I certainly wouldn't want to be a Meetup activity organiser if anything went wrong on an activity and there was legal action as a result.

[davidmorr]

Any thoughts on this subject should include Meetup, rated (for what it's worth) '11th Most Popular Social Networking Website' by ebizmba.com. Sydney Bushies already use it as a sort of new member net with the only activities being regular 'New Member Info Nights'. Perhaps someone from SBW can let us know if this has been a success - as of today 107 prospective members have apparently used this Meetup entry. Link - http://www.meetup.com/Sydney-Bush-Walkers-Club/

US-based Meetup.com has several Aus. groups with bushwalking as a primary or secondary aim and if you haven't come across it before it's worth a look - http://www.meetup.com and search for 'bushwalking'. Anyone can set up a group for around $150pa. No committee needed, so you too can be Dear Leader. Mostly it's arranged to be free to become a member of a group with a small fee when you go on an activity - although the ones I looked at (I am not a member of any Meetup group) had high numbers of members but very few activities. There are very few rules also which should please some of the contributers to this thread. However I certainly wouldn't want to be a Meetup activity organiser if anything went wrong on an activity and there was legal action as a result.

I was intending to mention Meetup. I have a friend in Vancouver who is in a Meetup group. The idea is that you can be part of the group but there is no obligation of any sort. If you decide to go on an activity, you sign up online and can see who else is going. As you say, may be quite suitable for some of the people who posted here about the restrictions of being in a club.

[davidmorr]

* one club has significantly increased its younger members by a new website and some experimentation with Facebook

Just looking again at the SBW Facebook page, it is actually a closed group. It can only be accessed by members, and as such is not really something that would attract new members. More a technique to allow existing members to exchange messages, photos, etc.

So not even one example of the use of social media as a recruiting technique.

[Bush Walker]

Any thoughts on this subject should include Meetup, rated (for what it's worth) '11th Most Popular Social Networking Website' by ebizmba.com. Sydney Bushies already use it as a sort of new member net with the only activities being regular 'New Member Info Nights'. Perhaps someone from SBW can let us know if this has been a success - as of today 107 prospective members have apparently used this Meetup entry. Link - http://www.meetup.com/Sydney-Bush-Walkers-Club/

Thanks tomh for the heads-up on MeetUp.

I think the concept is great, well implemented and reasonably cheap for what it offers and the amount of time it could save an organiser.
It would be ideal for organising meetings/activities perhaps at short notice and attractive for those familiar with Facebook and other web 2.0 apps.
Like you, I would want to know more about the legal implications for the person organising a walk, if things go wrong, but for open meetings and other activities with no risk it would be ideal.
I like how Caro Ryan (SBW) has used it to hold introductory new members nights, for the public. The RSVP function would allow venue bookings to be adjusted if needed.

[Bush Walker]

Davidmorr, earlier in this thread, has noted that we are struggling to find examples of the use of social media by bushwalking Clubs.

The successful use of social media could create a web presence, be a marketing and recruitment tool and possibly create a feeling of community. Some Clubs are using private forums/bulletin boards/noticeboards but these are only available to members and hence can't have a role in the recruitment of new members, but can contribute significantly to a feeling of community.

Popular Social Media websites include:

Blogger, WordPress: blogs for sharing text, photos and video
Forums: such as Bushwalk Australia
Twitter: microblog used for short text messages
Facebook: photos and personal news sharing
Flickr: photos and video sharing
YouTube: video sharing
digg: social news
StumbleUpon: social news
Reddit: social news
MeetUp: meeting organiser
Delicious: social bookmarking

To help us focus on the topic, I have started a new thread. How Does Your Club Use Social Media? VOTE IN THE POLL
Come and join us!

[Jellybean]

Bush_walker I don't think you have shared your experience with the subject which led you to start this discussion. Is there a problem with your walking club and what are you doing to remedy it? and which demographic do you fill?

Quite appropriate that the questioner gets questioned!

My experience is much broader than bushwalking clubs and comes from the time a few years ago when part of my job description included visiting community groups to promote the use of the internet and teach the necessary skills. I noticed that most of the organisations I visited had an age of 55+ and most complained about falling numbers attending meetings and the difficulty of getting fresh blood into their organisations. I started looking around for solutions to the problem and have discussed some of these in my blog and in this forum.

I belong to two bushwalking clubs and have tried to introduce social networking and web 2.0 tools ( wikis, blogs etc) to boost participation, collaboration, attract younger members and spread the workload with little success. In the process I have learnt a lot about change management, intergenerational change and governance. My admiration and interest in SBW success story follows from these experiences.

My photo is on the web. I'll let you guess my age and where I fit the profile.

In line with the earlier comments in this thread about personality and compatibility, I suspect that the manner in which one attempts to introduce new initiatives will have a significant influence on their uptake!

[Bush Walker]

In line with the earlier comments in this thread about personality and compatibility, I suspect that the manner in which one attempts to introduce new initiatives will have a significant influence on their uptake!

Very true. Change initiators need unlimited patience to slowly win everyone over!

[Bush Walker]

Davidmorr, earlier in this thread, has noted that we are struggling to find examples of the use of social media by bushwalking Clubs.

The successful use of social media could create a web presence, be a marketing and recruitment tool and possibly create a feeling of community. Some Clubs are using private forums/bulletin boards/noticeboards but these are only available to members and hence can't have a role in the recruitment of new members, but can contribute significantly to a feeling of community.

Popular Social Media websites include:

Blogger, WordPress: blogs for text sharing and commenting
Forums: such as Bushwalk Australia
Twitter: microblogs used for short text messages
Facebook: photo and personal news sharing
Flickr: photo and video sharing
YouTube: a video sharing
digg: social news
StumbleUpon: social news
Reddit: social news
MeetUp: meeting organiser
Delicious: a social bookmarking

To help us focus on the topic, I have started a new thread. How Does Your Club Use Social Media? VOTE IN THE POLL
Come and join us!

[Lotsafreshair]

A poll associated with the thread asked if membership was decreasing and 59% said no. Discussion that followed indicated that the increasing or stable membership could be partly explained as due to an increase in older members of 30-60 years, replacing even older members who were retiring from the Club. Few new members seemed to be <30 years age or if so, they rarely stopped for long.

Don't forget that this poll is skewed as there are several members from the one club who have responded. ie. there are several SBW people in this thread who have responded... just sayin.

[flyfisher]

Must say that there are many issues raised here that would keep people out of clubs.

Some of us just want to do what we have done for 10 or 20 or 40 years without all the bs...

Just get out there and do it Tassie style (Strollers style)

FF

[Bush Walker]

Don't forget that this poll is skewed as there are several members from the one club who have responded. ie. there are several SBW people in this thread who have responded... just sayin.

Thanks Lotsafreshair. Yes I had assumed that the poll data had limited value.

I'd like to discuss the statistical significance of the forum polls in general but I think this would take the discussion off-topic so I have started another thread Are poll stats meaningful? for just this purpose.

There are more questions that the poll raises than it answers.

[Bush Walker]

Some of us just want to do what we have done for 10 or 20 or 40 years without all the bs...

Do you think this is a good idea? Changes are happening which we can't ignore and will impact in the next 5-10 years, as the baby boomers pass through our Clubs.

Generation x's and Y's are different than baby boomers! Are you going to stick your head in the sand?

[oyster_07]

Firstly, I am not find of gen-x or gen-y references. Do we mean to say all people in a ten-year-or-so age bracket are the same? Really?

In terms of clubs, it's forums like this that are the new clubs. A club is intended as a forum for the sharing of idea and experience, and do us thus forum. Further, loaded with the information shared, people are more able to do things by themselves. The loss of organised tours is not the death of tourism.

What's more, the beauty of heading outdoors into the wilderness (for me at least) is the ability to escape. To not see any other people for a week is a splendid escape from the day-to-day.

Basically, clubs need bushwalkers but bushwalkers and bush walking do not need clubs. Those who need or want clubs should join, but many people simply do not need them.

[flyfisher]

Those who need or want clubs should join, but many people simply do not need them.

I have never felt the need or desire to be in a bushwalking club, but prefer instead to walk with a few like minded people when and where we want. I do walk with a group (the Strollers) quite often and enjoy the company of the dozen or so others in the group but we are not a club. We are just a bunch of folk with a common interest and sufficient skills to tackle most walks. We do plan our strolls but do it through this forum and pm's but are too widely spaced for physical get togethers other than our trips. We have done this since the forum was a pup and it works well for us. I believe there is at least one other similar group on the forum.
The age of Strollers ranges from 26 to 66 with a fair spread in betwwen. The physical capabilities do vary as would be expected but all seem to be accomodated without too much disruption.