Wild dogs?

[colinm]

I read a fauna survey of the wollongambe wilderness which made interesting reading. Apart from some donkeys (!!) they found no evidence of foxes or cats, but they did find dingos.

I took that to mean that the dingos kept down the ferals, and I'm all for that. More dingos, I say.

[curwalker]

Wollangambe is in the Blue Mountains, did the survey state what they meant with "dingo?"

[puredingo]

Yeah, I find it hard to believe there is no trace of fox or cat in the Blue mountains but I hope it's true what they're saying about Dingo numbers.

[colinm]

No, as far as I can recall there was no definition of 'dingo' in the survey report I read. The survey was not of 'the blue mountains' but of the wollongambe wilderness - from Bell, north. Here's the document http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resou ... eFauna.pdf, have a read yourself - it's quite interesting. Who'd have thought there were feral donkeys in the wollongambe?

Seems I misread - they said there were no cats in the area, and suggested breeding up dingos to keep them out.

[juxtaposer]

For Wollondilly dingos: http://macarthur-chronicle-wollondilly. ... ollondilly.

[puredingo]

Both those links were really heartening to read..Thanks.

[curwalker]

So I did knew of them I simply didn't recognize the region (I only read some of Purcell's stuff). Thanks for the links.
Personally I am rather ambivalent of the report since it mostly seems to follow the "rule" that only pure dingoes (a concept called into question by Purcell) have a right to exist there. Sure it does state that "Research in the southern Blue Mountains suggests that there is little difference in the ecological role played by Dingoes, Feral Dogs and hybrids (B. Purcell in prep.)" but I ask myself whether such a short sentence like that isn't overlooked easily and whether again it will be claimed, or at least suggested by texts, that dingoes have to be "pure" to have a role as apex predators.
Even with the recent articles I read who stated evidence for their nativeness (their prey showed obvious avoidance behavior) I can't remember any article who stated that the examined bandicoots in the study actually avoided yards with domestic dogs and not dingoes. Perhaps this is because this would suggest that feral dogs and therefore "hybrids" (considered that they have successfully breed for generations now I think its inapropriate to refer to them as such) are native too and not this scourge of the land that at least some conservationists claim them to be.
Personally I think that this attitude of stating the pure one as good and the hybrid as bad, or of lesser worth, only romanticizes dingoes and demonizes "hybrids." Interestingly the language now often used for the "wild dog" was in the past used for the dingo. Either way such attitudes would only increase the level of anxiety when people encounter wild dogs and therefore probably lead to actual dangerous situations in my eyes since people would not keep a clear head.

[Vern]

I've seen a couple of dogs in the Blue Mts over the past years. One when I was doing a canyon near Mt Banks that looked like a traditional orangy coloured dingo. The other was on the Grand Canyon Track, it was darker in colour. There were some NP workers we spoke to who were supprised to hear of one near The Grand Canyon and tried to tell me it was probably a domestic dog but it certainly looked like a dingo to me. I loved seeing them out there but facing a pack of dogs may be different, although I suspect on most occassions they wouldn't be interested in me anyway.

[curwalker]

Sounds interesting. What do you mean with "darker in color?" Was it rather dark orange or reddisch or already brown?

Of course both dogs you mentioned could have been either domestic or wild (albeit I am not sure whether such a distinction would be appropriate here) and once you start looking past the whole breed-thinking you'll find dogs time and again who look similar to dingoes. The last one I saw on a picture from Egypt.

And if these dogs are like most other free-living canines most probably would knew you were there long before you noticed them. So a whole pack probably will not come near unless they are interested in you.

If you have seen a few, did you notice any patterns in your encounters? Regarding age, looks or behavior?

[jackhinde]

saw one sunday arvo having a go at roadkill near tianjara. saw it again about an hour later, it had become roadkill.
i hear wild dogs all the time at sassafras, and sign of them in wollindilly and nattai is always apparent, but have only seen them twice on foot. secretive animals that concern me little.

[curwalker]

All these reports really do show quite a different picture from that newsmedia shows. According to that the bush/outback is full of bloodthirsty monsters who breed like rabbits.

[Earthling]

Having lived in western queensland for waaaay to long, I have heard plenty of reports of ‘wild dog’ kills. Also saw plenty of ‘wild dogs’/dingoes and they all looked very dingo like to me. Seen dingoes on the Larapinta Trail, at Cairns hinterland, Yulara and Uluru, Warburton, Laverton, around Mitchell and towards the qld border and Kakadu. I always feel sorry for this beautiful free dog, which is often killed to satisfy humans desire for money.

[tasadam]

I saw my first wild dingo in the campground at Ayers Rock in 1986 (which is why I call it that instead of Uluru).
It was BIG!
Back in the day, there was a lot of speculation about the whole Azaria thing, but after seeing how big it was and how casually it walked around the campground when people were about, I was a believer. Scared me, big wild dogs that close...

[puredingo]

On the subject of the puredingo interbreeding with domestic dogs it seems to me that the only successfull pups to reach adulthood are the dogs who share close traits to the Dingo. I've only ever seen dogs with pricked ears in the bush..say like a cattle dog (who have a lot of dingo blood in it anyway), Kelpie or german shepherds, the traditional pig hunting dog ie pitbulls, bulldogs, staffy's etc all have flop ears/short coats that are not compatible or suited to the Aussie terrain...in these parts anyway.
So where I would love the Dingo to stay as pure as possible maybe the crossing that goes on isn't too destructive to the breed?

[curwalker]

Nice, I will google these sites for dog pictures.

As for the "hybrids:"
First, why is it so important to be pure? Considered that the dingo already had a genetic bottleneck in its past and thanks to controls probably a few more, wouldn't a a higher genetic diversity be good?
Second, wouldn't natural selection kick in the moment a hybrid is born and it's offsprings therefore no longer be hybrids? Therefore they would be shaped to suite the current environment (therefore the most extreme cases of crosses can be dismissed right away). As for them being prick-eared, I saw similar ones in a documentation from Tierra Del Fuego and erect ears seem to be the end result as long as genes are there for them. Dropped ears supposedly raise he chances of ear-infection.
In addition, according to the paper "When Does an Alien Become a Native Species - A Vulnerable Native Mammal Recognizes and Responds to Its Long-Term Alien Predator" bandicoots where less likely to visit yards with domestic dogs than those with cats. And if they evade non-dingo dogs so they would arguably do that with dingoes, therefore even hybrids would be native since prey species are not naive to them.

By the way I found a paper called "Rethinking dog domestication by integrating genetics, archeology, and biogeography" and it can be found as a free pdf on the site of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/ ... l.pdf+html

It convincingly challenges the concept of the ancient breeds and states that equalizing their distinctive DNA as a mark of being ancient was a mistake and it simply showed that they were isolated for the gene pool when modern dog-breeding started in 19th century.

[Overlandman]

From Todays Sunday Examiner,
Lorinna is just North of Cradle Mountain & The Walls,
Regards Overlandman


Wild dog numbers `could explode'

CARLY DOLAN

10 Jun, 2012 04:00 AM



CHILDREN have been threatened in their own backyards by wild dogs and adults have had to fight off a pack that surrounded them in Tasmania's North-West.
Wild packs have established themselves at Lorinna and there are fears it's too late to stop a population explosion in the state.

Lorinna hobby farmer Ricky Heather has trapped and destroyed 17 wild dogs already and said that there were about 20 more roaming in two packs across the valley.

``Someone dumped some about 12 months ago and they've just bred up from there and there are pregnant *&^%$#@! all the time now,'' he said.

``They're very vicious and there are all different breeds. I don't think we're ever going to be able to get rid of them now because there are just too many of them.

``At the moment they're in the valley and if they get into areas like Liena and into the national parks, the populations could explode.''

Mr Heather said that the dogs were mainly blue heeler and red heeler crosses.

At the moment, the dogs were hunting native wildlife as well as eating roadkill, he said.

``About two weeks ago, I was up in my top garden and I counted eight dogs come down the road in single file - they were chasing a wallaby one after the other, but by the time I got back to my house and got my gun, they were gone.

``I think what's going to happen eventually is they're going to start attacking livestock.''

So far, no one has been attacked by the dogs, but Mr Heather said they were very dangerous.

``There have been a couple of people who have been down to the waterline when the water's gone off and they've been surrounded by the dogs and they've beaten them off with sticks,'' he said.

``They're wild and when they do see people, they're inclined to attack.''

Kentish Mayor Don Thwaites said that he had heard stories about people being intimidated by the dogs.

``Especially children when they go out to the garden or playing outside,'' he said. ``It's not a good situation.''

Mr Heather uses three traps lent to him by the Kentish Council, but he said that was as far as the council's involvement went.

[stepbystep]

I've been told there are dogs in the February Plains area still, and they come down as far as the Pelion Plains. I wouldn't have believed it but the guy who told me is trustworthy and spends a lot of time in the area...

[Overlandman]

I've been told there are dogs in the February Plains area still, and they come down as far as the Pelion Plains. I wouldn't have believed it but the guy who told me is trustworthy and spends a lot of time in the area...

I have heard this as well, They have been heard howling around Pelion Hut area. When there is a full moon

Ask any Ranger that has been up at Cradle for a few years, they can tell you the stories about dogs in that area, Rarely seen but sometimes heard.
Regards Overlandman

[Miyata610]

I was at WOJ a couple of weeks ago with another forum member. We saw many clear dog footprints between trappers hut and wild dog creek.

[stepbystep]

I was at WOJ a couple of weeks ago with another forum member. We saw many clear dog footprints between trappers hut and wild dog creek.

What interests me is that this population seems to have been around for a long time, have remained quite secretive and with a seemingly low impact... or am I wrong?

[Nuts]

Iv'e seen dog tracks on the Arm River now and then over the years. Hard to tell how many but they (or relatives) have been up there as long as iv'e been around. More worrying are the reports from WoJ. I had some friends retreat into Dixons Hut (and piled their gear against the door..) as they were to scared to sleep. Have heard of a few similar close encounters (again, over many years), sounds like they are still around. As it stands, despite best intentions, parks can be a bit of a safe haven for ferals...

[corvus]

It would appear that this could be an ongoing problem as there was a Dog Pack running wild in the Pelion Plains area a couple of years ago which I thought were eradicated ?and they were a mixed lot of escaped /lost dogs used for hunting .
If the report from Lorrina is correct regarding species, Blue/Red Heeler cross I did not think that this breed was used much for hunting (no expert) so is it correct that they are the result of "dumped" pups or just from dogs that were allowed to roam free from that area to go forth and procreate at will

In the article there was a wee bit of a contradiction
"They're very vicious and they are all different breeds" and or "the dogs were mainly blue heeler and red heeler crosses"
It also states that "There have been a couple of people surrounded by the dogs and beaten them off with sticks" sheeite would not fancy my chances with a wild dog pack if I only had a stick to beat them off

Regardless of origin it is a real worry if they are there in the numbers mentioned in the article and we need to do something about it now , Cr Thwaites needs to be told it is a "stray dog" problem therefore a council concern under the dog control act I believe.
corvus

[curwalker]

Why do you think that this could be a problem? If they were likely to attack livestock, why didn't they do so already? If they really are descendents of dumped dogs why didn't they go for easily accessable livestock already? And what damage to wildlife could they do? If the people solely blaming the dingo for the dissapreance of mainland thylacines are right than the dogs would take the ecological niche of the thylacine in Tasmania.

And what exactly happened in their backyards? The article isn't clear and considered the topic of big predators newspaper usually aren't a reliable source and there is alot of hysteria especially in case of ferals. If the dog numbers could explode why didn't they do so already?

So what basis is there "to do something about it now?"
And if research from Australia, Europe and North America is any indication, killing of them would only increase the problem and definitely lead to attacks on livestock.

[north-north-west]

I've been told there are dogs in the February Plains area still, and they come down as far as the Pelion Plains. I wouldn't have believed it but the guy who told me is trustworthy and spends a lot of time in the area...

I have heard this as well, They have been heard howling around Pelion Hut area. When there is a full moon

Ask any Ranger that has been up at Cradle for a few years, they can tell you the stories about dogs in that area, Rarely seen but sometimes heard.
Regards Overlandman

*snigger*
It was somewhere up that way that poor old Dicky Dwyer had his run in with the cocker spaniel. Probably near the Arm River Track. And that was more than thirty years ago.

[corvus]

I've been told there are dogs in the February Plains area still, and they come down as far as the Pelion Plains. I wouldn't have believed it but the guy who told me is trustworthy and spends a lot of time in the area...

I have heard this as well, They have been heard howling around Pelion Hut area. When there is a full moon

Ask any Ranger that has been up at Cradle for a few years, they can tell you the stories about dogs in that area, Rarely seen but sometimes heard.
Regards Overlandman

*snigger*
It was somewhere up that way that poor old Dicky Dwyer had his run in with the cocker spaniel. Probably near the Arm River Track. And that was more than thirty years ago.

Not to be sniggered at n-n-w I personally have heard the dogs when in the" Paddocks" a few years back ,that pack was led by a wolfhound type and was hard to capture I believe , that pack has now been eradicated ,so are you suggesting this is a JOKE that we have a pack of (poor *&%$#!) Feral Dogs running free??
corvus

[north-north-west]

You're getting a tad overdefensive again, corby.
I was laughing at the memory of an almighty kerfuffle that occurred more than thirty years ago, when the Cradle RiC shot a privately owned cocker spaniel who had been tethered to a tree whilst its owner was out walking. Lord, that was one of the sillier media beat-ups I've come across.

Although the point was more about the dog packs being in that area for a fairly long time.

[corvus]

You're getting a tad overdefensive again, corby.
I was laughing at the memory of an almighty kerfuffle that occurred more than thirty years ago, when the Cradle RiC shot a privately owned cocker spaniel who had been tethered to a tree whilst its owner was out walking. Lord, that was one of the sillier media beat-ups I've come across.

Although the point was more about the dog packs being in that area for a fairly long time.

No n-n-w I thought you were being a tad frivolous about a serious problem and can see no redemption or hilarity in someones pet dog being shot when tethered regardless if it was more than thirty years ago.
corvus

[north-north-west]

Honey, the twit took his dog with him, tied it to a tree near the Park boundary, attached a note to its collar saying the dog hadn't been abandoned but he was out walking and would be back at whatever time to collect it, and went off for his walk.
Unfortunately, Dicky was out there chasing up reports of feral dogs in the area, heard the thing barking, and took it out with a single shot from a considerable distance. From memory, owner and Ranger arrived at the corpse at about the same time and all hell broke loose.
I'm surprised you don't remember the fuss about it, the media went haywire at the time, there were calls for poor old Dicky's head when he was just doing his job. In the end, he survived on a technicality: both tree and attached dog were just inside the park boundary, so the owner was legally in the wrong.

And I repeat: I wasn't laughing at the demise of the animal, but at the idiotic reaction of the press and the ignorant masses.

Oh, *&%$#! it, why do I bother? Think what you *&%$#! well like, why the hell should I expect any reason out of any of you?

[corvus]

Your reply is beneath you especially with you previous excellent use of words.
corvus

[corvus]

Why do you think that this could be a problem? If they were likely to attack livestock, why didn't they do so already? If they really are descendents of dumped dogs why didn't they go for easily accessable livestock already? And what damage to wildlife could they do? If the people solely blaming the dingo for the dissapreance of mainland thylacines are right than the dogs would take the ecological niche of the thylacine in Tasmania.

And what exactly happened in their backyards? The article isn't clear and considered the topic of big predators newspaper usually aren't a reliable source and there is alot of hysteria especially in case of ferals. If the dog numbers could explode why didn't they do so already?

So what basis is there "to do something about it now?"
And if research from Australia, Europe and North America is any indication, killing of them would only increase the problem and definitely lead to attacks on livestock.

Just read your post and cannot understand where you are coming from I am commenting on non native Ferals not Dingos.
corvus